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Void__Dragon wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:That's what I said. The Larean weapon - SLAANESHI weapon corrupted Fulgrim isntead of the Anathame, a NURGLE chaos weapon that he already posessed. Kinda redundant to have 2 Chaos in the armory of the same guy weapons, don't you think?

You're still wrong.

Fulgrim found the Laeran blade first, which corrupted him. He was only given the Anathame by Horus after Fulgrim already agreed to go traitor, and was already corrupted.

Ok, I've read the book nearly 2 years ago so I might have gotten the events wrong. Still, no need to have 2 Deamon infused weapons in the hands of the same guy. Isn't that redundant plotwise?

Alkasyn wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:That's what I said. The Larean weapon - SLAANESHI weapon corrupted Fulgrim isntead of the Anathame, a NURGLE chaos weapon that he already posessed. Kinda redundant to have 2 Chaos in the armory of the same guy weapons, don't you think?

You're still wrong.

Fulgrim found the Laeran blade first, which corrupted him. He was only given the Anathame by Horus after Fulgrim already agreed to go traitor, and was already corrupted.

Ok, I've read the book nearly 2 years ago so I might have gotten the events wrong. Still, no need to have 2 Deamon infused weapons in the hands of the same guy. Isn't that redundant plotwise?

No?

Alkasyn wrote:Ok, I've read the book nearly 2 years ago so I might have gotten the events wrong. Still, no need to have 2 Deamon infused weapons in the hands of the same guy. Isn't that redundant plotwise?

What Loki said.

The Anathame was a gift of good will to make Fulgrim trust Horus, nothing more.

First Heretic, hands down. Way more relevant novel that shows us how the Horus Heresy was started, and gives us some insight to the Primarchs' fate after they were whisked away from the Emperor.

All Fulgrim accomplished was make me seriously dislike the Emperor's Children. Bunch of arrogant prissy boys, and their Primarch is the most easily-manipulated tool since Anakin Skywalker. He also talks to poop paintings.

Fulgrim is the most easily used tool since ever. At least Anakin thought he would save his wife. Fulgrim did it because a Sword told him to.

I think the relationship has a little more depth than "a Sword told him to".

Yes, he thought the strange alien voice in his head telling him things he never before thought or considered was really his subconsciousness telling him that, yes, his dearest brother is an donkey-cave that hates him, and yes, paintings made of poop are super awesome and it's natural when they talk to you.

To be fair, everyone who so much as entered the Laeran temple began to think that poop paintings and bad music (Screamo, perhaps) was awesome, and didn't question it at all.

But yeah, Fulgrim was a massive douche even before the Laeran sword, and was probably the most easily corrupted Primarch.

-Loki- wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:That's what I said. The Larean weapon - SLAANESHI weapon corrupted Fulgrim isntead of the Anathame, a NURGLE chaos weapon that he already posessed. Kinda redundant to have 2 Chaos in the armory of the same guy weapons, don't you think?

You're still wrong.

Fulgrim found the Laeran blade first, which corrupted him. He was only given the Anathame by Horus after Fulgrim already agreed to go traitor, and was already corrupted.

Ok, I've read the book nearly 2 years ago so I might have gotten the events wrong. Still, no need to have 2 Deamon infused weapons in the hands of the same guy. Isn't that redundant plotwise?

No?

Spoiler:

Horus needed a gift to give his brother, to show him the trust placed in him. What better way than to entrust to Fulgrim the sword that nearly killed him? The Anathame had nothing to do with Fulgrims fall or the central story around Fulgrim - it was part of the story around Horus. Fulgrims fall is centered squarely around the Laeran sword.

Then we will have to agree to disagree, as for me a much better story progression would be if Fulgrim was corrupted indirectly by Horus and not a random weapon taken from some random temple on a faraway planet. I stand by my opinion that having 2 daemon weapons in the hands of 1 priimarch is a plot waste.

But it's not a random weapon on a faraway planet. Horus sent him there. Probably knew the weapon was there as well.

Omegus wrote:Yes, he thought the strange alien voice in his head telling him things he never before thought or considered was really his subconsciousness telling him that, yes, his dearest brother is an donkey-cave that hates him, and yes, paintings made of poop are super awesome and it's natural when they talk to you.

But it started as what his subconscious might actually have said, then worked up to that point. Something worth remembering is Fulgrim's fear of failure because of the initial loss of numbers from his legion. It's what the entire fall to Chaos of the legion was caused by, as he tried to bring them to perfection through various means.

The strangling incident spoilt fulgrim for me a bit.

Which strangling incident?

Durza wrote:But it's not a random weapon on a faraway planet. Horus sent him there. Probably knew the weapon was there as well.

Horus didn't send him there, more than likely Chaos knew that Fulgrim would end up there someday and placed it. Like a lot of the actions of the Chaos Gods, it had been planned for a long time.

Durza wrote:But it started as what his subconscious might actually have said, then worked up to that point. Something worth remembering is Fulgrim's fear of failure because of the initial loss of numbers from his legion. It's what the entire fall to Chaos of the legion was caused by, as he tried to bring them to perfection through various means.

It's stupid, it even says in the book that he was surprised by the voice and when it starts to come from the painting he doesn't find it bizarre. Fulgrim and the Children are my favorite Legion, but this book and the CCG before it made me pretty annoyed. The talking sword and Daemon possession ruined the character of him for me. I'll stick to the codex and previous fluff on his fall thanks, the ones that make his fall a bit more tragic rather then him being thick.

The First Heretic all the way for me.

I do have one gripe with the First Heretic and that's the whole Cadia thing.

Durza wrote:Which strangling incident?

First heretic, no competition IMO.

Though it's not the best HH book.

Valkyrie wrote:I would go for First Heretic, as it goes into a part of the Heresy that previously hadn't even been mentioned: What was the cause of the Warp rist that scattered the Primarch's pods across the galaxy.

Which was the dumbest thing to date to come out of the HH series. The paradox alone makes no sesne. For that reason alone Fulgrim was better.

carmachu wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:I would go for First Heretic, as it goes into a part of the Heresy that previously hadn't even been mentioned: What was the cause of the Warp rist that scattered the Primarch's pods across the galaxy.

Which was the dumbest thing to date to come out of the HH series. The paradox alone makes no sesne. For that reason alone Fulgrim was better.

Was it all that it seemed though, or was it all Chaos smoke and mirrors to convince the Word Bearers to act? If Fulgrim is anything to go by Daemons can't be trusted ..at all ... ever ever ever ... not even a tiny bit ..

It's like with the Cabal and the Aquity and where it looks into. Maybe they were shown that course of action because I don't know, certain denizens of the warp wanted that route to be taken.

Pilau Rice wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:I would go for First Heretic, as it goes into a part of the Heresy that previously hadn't even been mentioned: What was the cause of the Warp rist that scattered the Primarch's pods across the galaxy.

Which was the dumbest thing to date to come out of the HH series. The paradox alone makes no sesne. For that reason alone Fulgrim was better.

Was it all that it seemed though, or was it all Chaos smoke and mirrors to convince the Word Bearers to act? If Fulgrim is anything to go by Daemons can't be trusted ..at all ... ever ever ever ... not even a tiny bit ..

It's like with the Cabal and the Aquity and where it looks into. Maybe they were shown that course of action because I don't know, certain denizens of the warp wanted that route to be taken.

There sure were a lot of gullible space marines.
I think the daemons in First Heretic showed the marines a true situation (the breakdown of the primarch containment pods), but let the marines think they had influenced it.

Both these books are my favourites since any book with loken in it.

obsidianaura wrote:

Spoiler:

Fulgrim killed an Avatar by strangling it :( - a molten metal embodyment of a god strangled to death...

Void__Dragon wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:

Spoiler:

Fulgrim killed an Avatar by strangling it :( - a molten metal embodyment of a god strangled to death...

Spoiler:

He didn't "strangle" it, that implies it died of suffocation. He crushed its neck and it exploded.

And this is the most dignified appearance an Avatar of Khaine has made since 2e (When one killed a Hive Tyrant), since the Avatar actually badly wounded Fulgrim. It's better than being punched in half by Marneus Calgar, gangbanged by a mob of Carnifexes, and violated by a Keeper of Secrets.

I think it's more like the Avatar is meant to be clearly powerful, so anyone who can beat one is instantly awesome.

Durza wrote: Avatar is meant to be clearly powerful, so anyone who can beat one is instantly awesome.

Don't dare say that again. Calgar punched one and it died! Nuff' said.

Damn, double post!

Deadshot wrote:

Durza wrote: Avatar is meant to be clearly powerful, so anyone who can beat one is instantly awesome.

Don't dare say that again. Calgar punched one and it died! Nuff' said.

Damn, double post!

Atleast Calgar struggled a bit, the Sanguinator just swoop in and one shot the dude!

Wwell he is the supossed spirit of either Sanguinius or the first Sanguiary Guard, though I am inclined to think Sanguinius. I mean, Sanguinius was clearly one of the better fighters, and if Fulgrim can break an Avatar's neck with his bare hands, then Sangiunius certainly could.

I don't mind the Avatar being beaten by these characters I just wish it's defeats weren't so...ignominious?