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Too much of the Imperium? No, not really. There's too little of everything. More xenos would be great, but so would a new Sisters, AdmMech and Inquisition codex. The Imperium is the protagonist of the setting, It's right that there should be a greater concentration on them.
Too much Space Marines? From a player perspective perhaps there are a few too many Marine codices. From a setting perspective then no, absolutely no, see above. From GW's perspective, I'd have thought that they don't have enough Marine Chapters. They make money, they bring people into the hobby as good advertising figure heads and as good starting armies. Sure, they should speed up the codex process and release more Xenos stuff, but it wouldn't likely make them as much money as doing more Space Marines. Cutting down on the number of SM books wouldn't solve the problem as Walrus has detailed.

I agree in that there are too many Imperial supporting codex's, but i don't agree that they should be rolled into one codex.

I think they should make more codex's for other races such as a whole kroot codex for the tau

If dem marine boyz get more codexs, da boyz want a codex: speed freeks

You know this is not a codex problem. Sure we have half a dozen SM codexs (Can we axe one or two and replace them with guard codexs maybe?), but that is just a symptom of the larger problem. The start of focus for everything is on the IoM. Apart from the codexs nothing really digs too deep. That means most books, most side games, most videos. They all start at the IoM, but they never really venture farther the IoM. Thats a big problem because it's in these side events that a side can really be flushed out.

We have three 40k rpgs. RT, DH, DW. You would think that they could have slipped a ork RPG in there. Orks are fun and from experience most RPG players act like Orks. Same with books. I scoured the border book shelf (can you believe they are closed now. boy that happened fast.) for anything on the tau or the orks, or well anything that wasn't IoM. only one I found was mark of the xeno.

I don't know how to fix this. The IoM is the natural starting point for exporting the setting, but we have the starting point well covered get moving on some of other fractions.

Way too much Space Marines, not so much Imperial though. No Adeptus Mechanicus/Arbites/etc. armies or attention. We don't even know who the High Lords are in the closing years of the 41st Millennia.

I would like to see some more alien races though expanded upon. The Ulumeathic League, Draxian Hegemony, and Noisome Reek were stated as being 3 emerging Xenos Empires along with the Tau who were threatening the Imperium.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Are you saying we need more xenos or less Imperial?

DakkaDakka wrote:

All of the above.....
If I can take one thing, from all of the above staments ,that repeat the same sentiment over and over in a different manner: GW aint gonna change what they precieve as a winning fourmula, as it is, well,.. Winning as far as they are concerned.

It all follows the basic formula for most si-fi stories and games; protagonast must have the same traits as present day humanity, but be different enough, that the customer feels they are not of this world... and whallah you have space marines.

done and done, it aint gonna change. So I think we should stop wishing it to.

That is the awnser to all of the above staments, questions and the OP.

I enjoy the different play style marines, it really allows for the variety they wouldn't have otherwise...

It's sad the GW just focuses on imperial forces, sure it makes them money but over the 20- something years they had the IP they created this wonderful world and they only focus on 1/2 of it. Sure it makes them money, but it gets boring after a while, "ah cool a big fight scene.......space marines win" "ah cool a huge space battle, "although completely outnumbered, the space marine fleet wins a crushing victory" oh" It's getting "used"

It's a difficult topic. Whilst I do agree that the number of Marine codices is very much disproportionate and not truly necessary (the Astartes had "combi-codices" before - anyone remember the Codex : Angels of Death?), the Marines are arguably GW's biggest seller, so from a business perspective it does make sense to focus on them, even if this means that other factions will be neglected.

In an ideal world, we would probably have many more codices with more regular updates and expansions. Just look at the Imperial Guard - you could easily make a Codex for the individual regiments as well, strengthening the differences between the various units based on their homeworld and different tactica. From a player's perspective, there is absolutely no reason for why the IG has to put up with a single book for all the regiments when the Astartes do not.

Alas, we do not live in that world, so the first paragraph remains true.

On the other hand, it might even be that GW could earn more profit by producing a single but bigger and slightly more pricy book ...

Lynata wrote:It's a difficult topic. Whilst I do agree that the number of Marine codices is very much disproportionate and not truly necessary (the Astartes had "combi-codices" before - anyone remember the Codex : Angels of Death?), the Marines are arguably GW's biggest seller, so from a business perspective it does make sense to focus on them, even if this means that other factions will be neglected.

In an ideal world, we would probably have many more codices with more regular updates and expansions. Just look at the Imperial Guard - you could easily make a Codex for the individual regiments as well, strengthening the differences between the various units based on their homeworld and different tactica. From a player's perspective, there is absolutely no reason for why the IG has to put up with a single book for all the regiments when the Astartes do not.

Alas, we do not live in that world, so the first paragraph remains true.

On the other hand, it might even be that GW could earn more profit by producing a single but bigger and slightly more pricy book ...

Aye, I still have the one I used to stomp face with in 2nd edition.

Chaos Space Marines are still Space Marines. So be sure to count them under Space Marines.

They should just do what chaos does. Add in the special units to the troops, and just combine them all into one army.

IMHO I'd like to see 2 massive codecii,

1) Codex: Adeptus Astartes. This would be a few hundred pages and have a special character for each of the Loyalist Legions and several other charaters that would have 2 page entries each with the rules that explain their chapter. The Codex would simply layout the standard units as normal. The regular Commander choice (An Utrasmarine Company Commander) would be a fraction of the other Special characters' cost to encourage people (that want to use the widest choices) to use a vanilla army. The Elite section of the Codex would include all the unique and interesting units (except those that clearly need to be FA or HS). Those Elites would be explained under the Special Character entry (ie Thunderwolf Calvary would simply be Bikes with additional rules and an added points cost, Death Company would be Veterans with additional rules and added points cost, ect.). I would not, however, include the Gray Knights. IMHO they have absolutly no right to a codex and should be in a seperate codex that covers the forces of the Inquisition.

2) Codex: Taitor Astartes. This would be an exact copy of the C:AA, except using all the Chaos Special charaters. The differences between the two (marketing-wise) would be that the C:AA would obviously focus more on the new units and vehicles (created by the Adeptus Mechanicus) while C:TA would focus on the monsters and slaves of the Eye of Terror.

Now I understand that people believe that rolling the codecii into one would slow the rate of releases from GW and such, but I think it would be a great way for GW to focus on the hobbying aspect of the game. Rather than trying to keep new books pumping out they could focus on more models being pumped out.
I felt that the Black Templar upgrade kits were the ultimate idea. Why not simply make new upgrades every few months as opposed a full fledged army release?

AustonT wrote:40k is a game that centers on Space Marines, it's always best if you reconcile yourself to that fact. Sales is a big part of that, but so is psychology. This is a game played by humans, the less imaginative and flexible players will tend to gravitate towards IoM armies.
I like variety as much as the next guy but SM armies will ALWAYS dominate 40k

This. I totally agree with

Do you guys realize this game is about the IoM and his struggle in the grimdark future, they are the protagonist of this history, not your tau or necrons or eldar...

Well, why can't there be a Codex: Astartes that covers all of the Marine chapters that follow that doctrine?

Obviously, that would include Ultramarines, which, if memory serves me correctly, are responsible for something like 3/5 of the Chapters in service.

But, such a book could also include more of the major chapters, which currently (for whatever reason) have their own book.

The Blood Angels, for example, were originally a Codex Astartes chapter that fought against their curse. The fact that Games Workshop turned them into loyalist Khornates is just another strike in the 'oh god GW is fething dumb' category.

The Dark Angels are, to my knowledge, also a Codex Astartes chapter, with the exception being their 1st and 10th companies (right? Deathwing and Ravenwing?). The rest of their 8 chapters, again to my knowledge, follow the doctrine espoused by Guillimen.

So, Ultramarines, Blood Angles, and Dark Angels could all be collected in one volume with the necessary special rules to differentiate them. I think even Black Templars could be stuck in there too, but that statement always results in teeth-gnashing and whatnot. But, nevertheless, why not have a book for Codex Astartes chapters, and a book for non-Codex Astartes chapters? That's where Space Wolves would be.

Actually, thinking about this, lets look at three established Chapters: the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, and the White Scars. Despite drastic tactical and strategic doctrinal differences, the White Scars are in the same book as the Ultramarines (Codex: Space Marines), whereas the Dark Angles, who are still a Codex: Astartes chapter, have their own book? Extending this further, the Blood Angels, who really just have a very angry interpretation of the Codex Astartes, also have their own book.

Of course, it really doesn't help when Matt "Hurrrr Spaez Marens are AWSUM!" Ward writes their codicies.

Justy wrote:Do you guys realize this game is about the IoM and his struggle in the grimdark future, they are the protagonist of this history, not your tau or necrons or eldar...

So? WHFB is also about human struggle in their world. They too must struggle against chaos, skaven (tyranid?), orks, undead (necrons). Humans are the main here there also. Somehow there is no problem with this much imbalance in armies.

bombboy1252 wrote:It's sad the GW just focuses on imperial forces, sure it makes them money but over the 20- something years they had the IP they created this wonderful world and they only focus on 1/2 of it. Sure it makes them money, but it gets boring after a while, "ah cool a big fight scene.......space marines win" "ah cool a huge space battle, "although completely outnumbered, the space marine fleet wins a crushing victory" oh" It's getting "used"

Exactly, but I'll go a bit further. Many here say that IoM is the main protagonist. It's their struggle against evil forces that is the main theme in wh40k. But what do you actually see on the table? Most of the time it's some strange situation where IoM is fighting itself, which is just stupid. Developing other armies will actually help to enforce this idea because IoM can finally fight some enemies, not only itself.
Again, somehow in human centred WHFB world there is no problem with more variety and balance. Why shouldn't there be in wh40k? I'm not even dreaming about equal treatment of xeno <-> IoM armies. But at least some move toward balance would help the game imho.

AustonT wrote:40k is a game that centers on Space Marines, it's always best if you reconcile yourself to that fact. Sales is a big part of that, but so is psychology. This is a game played by humans, the less imaginative and flexible players will tend to gravitate towards IoM armies.
I like variety as much as the next guy but SM armies will ALWAYS dominate 40k

This is a post that could only be made in jest or in the attempt to draw an angry response. Less flexible and imaginative minds are the prerequisite of enjoying a human army? That is pure comedy. If we had the opposite of Exalt on this forum I would use it. Especially considering your gallery features Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers and Crimson Fists.

I dunno, I feel like the huge market focus on SM has made SM less elite.

What it comes down to is the quote from the Incredibles (aren't I classy), where the villain says that "once everybody is super, then nobody will be super!" or something to that effect.

Its why we see the blood Angels more obsessed with blood than the Khorne Berserkers of the World Eaters.

Its why we see the Space Wolves of the wolfy wolf focusing entirely on wolves and frost.

Its why the Grey Knights even exist- because everybody else is so elite that you need to play an elite elite army to feel elite. jeeze.

Its one of the primary reasons I could never myself play a Space Marine army. The whole concept of having an elite army of super soldiers battle hordes of vile Xenos and Heretics is kind of lost when you look at other players and see almost nothing but other super soldiers. I mean your dudes suddenly stop feeling elite when more than half of the available codexes have 4s as a stat line, and 3+ saves.

As an Eldar player I often feel that people feel "refreshed" after playing with me, having something on the table besides opposing Marines makes their marines easier to identify with. Instead of just dealing with another Marine army spamming Razor Backs with maybe an caveat here or there (ooh cheap devastators which can split fire and weird wolf carvery or ooh fast vehicles, fnp troops, and discounted razors) at the end of the day its still a bunch of 3+ models with 4s across the statline in las plas razors or something similar.

I understand the market reasons for this, and nobody can deny that Marines are romantic and that they sell. But they don't feel elite at all, because everybody else plays Marines.

Ogiwan wrote:
So, Ultramarines, Blood Angles, and Dark Angels could all be collected in one volume with the necessary special rules to differentiate them. I think even Black Templars could be stuck in there too, but that statement always results in teeth-gnashing and whatnot. But, nevertheless, why not have a book for Codex Astartes chapters, and a book for non-Codex Astartes chapters? That's where Space Wolves would be.

Obligatory teeth-gnashing comment. Templars are at least as divergent as the Space Wolves. Why people pretend otherwise is beyond me.

That's because all people like Imperium's atmosphere. I mean just see Space Marines, the verity of cultures, myths, legends and symbols used in lore. Then different real life army themes used in the Imperial Guard and religious and righteous theme used for Sisters of Battle.
And the whole idea of Imperium, as one of the last great Human empires in the galaxy that is fighting ( for now ) losing battle against everything that universe and beyond can throw at them with both courage and sacrifice is just firing legendary and epic in every way...

But to be honest, other non-Imperial army's are adding a LOT of good things into the 40k to. But the story is more generated around the Imperium because:

a ) They are Human.
b ) They have awesome heroes and endless army's of both manpower and armor
c ) And beside all that - they are losing war for survival.
d ) The verity of cultures used for the Imperium is bigger then in any other sci-fi setting.

The_Stormrider wrote:

AustonT wrote:40k is a game that centers on Space Marines, it's always best if you reconcile yourself to that fact. Sales is a big part of that, but so is psychology. This is a game played by humans, the less imaginative and flexible players will tend to gravitate towards IoM armies.
I like variety as much as the next guy but SM armies will ALWAYS dominate 40k

This is a post that could only be made in jest or in the attempt to draw an angry response. Less flexible and imaginative minds are the prerequisite of enjoying a human army? That is pure comedy. If we had the opposite of Exalt on this forum I would use it. Especially considering your gallery features Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers and Crimson Fists.

What he said makes perfect sense. Because the space marines are the humans and therfor the good guys, as well as the fact that theyre bosses, means that theyre going to sell the most. And what do you do to a product that sells well? Make more and upgrade.

Why do we even need the non-conforming Space Marines? I look at them from the outside and I think "well, that's obviously a tactical marine and that's obviously devastators" and I just can't find all that much justification for the other chapters. Except people who WANTS their marines to have the official Wolfy McWolf stamp.

Che-Vito wrote:

gmaleron wrote:Who said anything about forcing people? It was just an idea for marines and really the topic is do you think there are to many Imperial/Space Marine Chapters in 40k, not just marines. Please stay on topic this was not to be a marine trashing thread, hence why I said it above.

I think that armies of the Imperium are 50%, because people can more closely identify with things that are human. Even the Space Marines are more human (and akin to us) than any other race.

Tau - closest bet to us being able to understand their thinking
Eldar/Dark Eldar - they experience reality differently than us, live significantly longer, and generally have a different focus towards the future.
Tyranids - No explanation needed, they don't think beyond tactical decisions and strategy
Necrons - No explanation needed, we are not soulless robots
Chaos - No explanation needed, we are not driven to what we (as humans) consider insanity, by the presence of the Empyrean
Orks - A very alien mindset, with genetic programming that is just not in us (humans.)

Before someone decides to be contrary for whatever reason, let's just be honest. We all identify better with humanity than anyone else.
(And I still am waiting for the person, who inevitably will post, "I tink like one of d'em boyz!")

With the exception of Craftworld Eldar being overall more bloodthirsty and psychotic, I find reading the fluff that I can relate to them and identify their society - from the perspective of 21st century western culture and ideology - than I can for Space Marines or even Imperium of Man. I mean, one fights for liberty, honour, respect, and mutual prosperity and the other fights for the ideal that human life is worthless. And it's not Eldar who think humanity's only good for sacrificing for a corpse in a throne.

I think Loyalist Space Marines should have 1 or 2 codexs at the most. There's far too much of a focus on them. Also, the Lost and the Damned and Genestealer Cults should get codexs again. Also, Chaos Space Marines should be more distinguished from Space Marines; they need to be stronger and more melee oriented, but less technology and equipment. But as long as Vanilla Space Marines continue to sell like crack, that won't happen.

@jolly Space marines may always dominate 40k, but its the idea that it's a deficiency in "flexibility or imagination" that drives that fact I take issue with. People will always play the faction that is most interesting to them. I happen to think that an alien race that devours planets and their biomass, or an ancient race of formerly biological but now robotic conquerers bent on the utter extermination of all life requires less imagination to play. That being said I love seeing the armies on the tabletop, and even have a 2k necron army.

Someone might make the same argument that playing chaos daemons, or even dark eldar takes little imagination as they are by their nature fairly single minded in their purpose. The fact is I think most 12 year olds playing space marines or orks or any other army have a more vivid and lively imagination about it than most adults. It's silly to assume the bulk of marine/imperial players play them simply because they don't have sufficient imagination. Someone's choice of army isn't linked to their creativity but rather their inspiration.

a return of the different Guard builds allowed (4 ed Doctrines, etc. allowed an insane degree of variety)

The issue with that is either: why not make different guard codices, or why can't you do the same to have the varieties of marines?

a ) They are Human.
b ) They have awesome heroes and endless army's of both manpower and armor
c ) And beside all that - they are losing war for survival.
d ) The verity of cultures used for the Imperium is bigger then in any other sci-fi setting.

a) Fantasy was pointed out earlier, but I don't play it nor have read the lore so I don't know how human-centric it is.
b) Why can't other armies have that? Eldar have awesome heroes (Phoenix Lords, the old Exarchs) and Orks & nids have endless manpower. Armor is the guard's thing though.
c) But why can't a xeno army have a variety of cultures? Eldar craftworlds are pretty well varied (I hate Saim-Hann's culture because it's counter productive), and chaos could probably get a book for each different god, plus one for undivided.

It's circular: The IoM should get more attention because it's varied, and it's varied because it gets more attention.

Ogiwan wrote:Of course, it really doesn't help when Matt "Hurrrr Spaez Marens are AWSUM!" Ward writes their codicies.

true that