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Hello everyone, this is a question that has talked about almost religiously at my local gaming store which came about when a guy walked in looking to start one of the many games we play. When asking what kinds of 40k armies there were he made a comment on how many marine chapters there were and how many pro imperial forces as a whole were in the game and decided that he would be better off playing fantasy since there was more variety. Now IMO I think he has a point and really it is, if not the primary reason why I have not played 40k in a long time as I feel it has turned somewhat into "Marine-Hammer" with each new book getting really ridiculous stuff (Paladins with Draego... ). When you break it down these are the armies you have at your disposal in the 40k universe:

IMPERIAL:
-Space Marines (Vanilla)
-Blood Angels
-Dark Angels
-Space Wolves
-Grey Knights
-Black Templars
-Imperial Guard
-Sisters of Battle

EVERYONE ELSE:
-Chaos
-Demons
-Eldar
-Dark Eldar
-Nids
-Tau
-Necrons
-Orks

When broken down exactly HALF of the 40k armies in the universe are dedicated to the Imperium (with over 6 of them alone being Space Marines which is 33% or 1/3 of all the armies available). Now I do realize that the Space Marines are the most popular and this is NOT a dig or trash talking post, I am just wanting to know do you guys think there are to many Space Marine and Imperial armies out there? And if so what do you think should be done to change it? Me I kind of thought of something off the last editions Imperial Guard Codex which involved doctrines: Lets say for some of the marine chapters (not all) that to run them as that army they take certain doctrines from the book like if you wanted to run a Black Templar army it would have a list of what you could/could not take and the special rules allowed to not only fit the chapters fluff but not an entirely differnt army. Just an Idea, tell me what you think and thanks mates!

Space Marines are by far the biggest sellers. They're shiny.

Oh look, it's this thread again. The issue with merging every marine Codex into one is that you'd either have to have a massive book and thus a massive development time or you'd have to axe some Chapters. The notion that it's somehow good for the hobby to try to force people into playing an army they don't want to play seems a tad misguided to me.

Who said anything about forcing people? It was just an idea for marines and really the topic is do you think there are to many Imperial/Space Marine Chapters in 40k, not just marines. Please stay on topic this was not to be a marine trashing thread, hence why I said it above.

I like the idea of a codex having doctrines, and brought it up before. It got shot down ruthlessly. People didn't like the idea of having one marine codex, with the option too make any chapter using traits, and instead thought I meant stapling all the marine codex's together into some sort of giant mess.

I think its better than having everyone play vanilla marines with different colours painted on them.

With different codexes for each chapter at least you get a variety in marines and they feel much more like seperate armies. I guess what an above poster meant was kind of like maybe the different craftworlds in the 3rd edition eldar codex only on a much larger scale with alot more traits. However doing that might not leave the impression of different armies but somehow just a "type" of marines.

If anyone understands that then happy days!

Marines sell, therefore they get more support, therefore they sell, therefore they get more support, therefore they sell, therefore.......

Marines are elite. That's the whole point. When choosing to play a game like 40k most people will think their better off choosing the elite because their cool, have dependable stats and are small superheroes. Besides, their the "good guys" thereby making their victories just and true, and making their proverbial cheese entirely justified because their Supposed to win. the good guys win right? That's what we are told from an early age. Their cheaper to collect and you get done painting faster, they have less complex color schemes and once you done one the next one will be exactly the same.

so, to summarise:
Elite
Easy to paint
Low model count
Good guys, therefore winners allready
Dependable

why would anyone not want them as their first choice?

gmaleron wrote:Who said anything about forcing people? It was just an idea for marines and really the topic is do you think there are to many Imperial/Space Marine Chapters in 40k, not just marines. Please stay on topic this was not to be a marine trashing thread, hence why I said it above.

Didn't mean that you said anything like that, but it's a common theme in this kind of thread to suggest that marines be rolled into one Codex so that other teams get more space, thus effectively forcing anyone with a variant Codex to switch army.

I'll say it again: Gathering all marines in one Codex is bad because you'd either end up with:

A) A giant tome of rules that is de facto impossible to playtest properly

B) A giant tome of rules that has so many special rules, exceptions and conditions that it all becomes a mess

C) A giant expensive tome of rules which makes marine players pay for rules they don't intend to ever use

D) A giant tome of rules where most of the fluff is gone and the only differentiating thing between marines is a few doctrines, leading to more complaints of how similar all marines are

E) A normal-sized tome of rules where X of the current Chapters aren't represented

F) A combination of the above.

In any case, Marine players lose while non-marine players get... What exactly?

I stick to my guns and say that the SW BA DA BT should NOT have their own codexs and share the same rules with codex marines GK, IG, and sisters are just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gmaleron wrote:Who said anything about forcing people? It was just an idea for marines and really the topic is do you think there are to many Imperial/Space Marine Chapters in 40k, not just marines. Please stay on topic this was not to be a marine trashing thread, hence why I said it above.

Didn't mean that you said anything like that, but it's a common theme in this kind of thread to suggest that marines be rolled into one Codex so that other teams get more space, thus effectively forcing anyone with a variant Codex to switch army.

I'll say it again: Gathering all marines in one Codex is bad because you'd either end up with:

A) A giant tome of rules that is de facto impossible to playtest properly

B) A giant tome of rules that has so many special rules, exceptions and conditions that it all becomes a mess

C) A giant expensive tome of rules which makes marine players pay for rules they don't intend to ever use

D) A giant tome of rules where most of the fluff is gone and the only differentiating thing between marines is a few doctrines, leading to more complaints of how similar all marines are

E) A normal-sized tome of rules where X of the current Chapters aren't represented

F) A combination of the above.

In any case, Marine players lose while non-marine players get... What exactly?

They would get new codexs more frequently........

Except they wouldn't, because the Space Marine Codex wold eat just as much resources as the five we have today combined. And even if this theoretical Codex: Astartes (Hurr hurr) somehow sped up Codex creation, it'd be at the expense of Marine players.

Oh, sorry, I forgot that it's OK to throw gak at Marine players because each individual Marine player is worth less than a non-Marine player. Carry on!

??? you seem a bit angry, I apologize if I came off rude but I do think its ridiculous how imperium has half of the codexs. I'm not saying "MAHREEEN SUX XENOSSS IZ BETTER" I'm just saying I don't like it, and as far as speeding up codexs, they wouldn't have to cram all the SW fluff with all the SW battles or BA fluff with the BA battles, it could just be the normal Codex: Space marine with a little bit more fluff for the other chapters.

HAHAHA eat more resources.

What resources? It doesn't take long to make a codex. There is only month's between releases because they sell more that way.

ChocolateGork wrote:HAHAHA eat more resources.

What resources? It doesn't take long to make a codex. There is only month's between releases because they sell more that way.

ya, theirs no way it would take THIS long for them to make a new crons' codex

For all the lack of business acumen GW seem to show, even they are not going to kill their golden goose like that.

As I am given to understand, SM out sell pretty much every other race/army/game combined.

The ease of designing kits (especially since it's done on computer these days) added to the simple construction/painting reduce costs in the studio and time for staff in shops, plus it's easier to sell the concept of a genetically engineered super human warrior to the target demographic.

If they cut down on marine sales, which xenos races do you want them to "squat" because they don't justify the development budget?

All marines in one dex would be fine. The only difference is the points costs getting cheaper and cheaper and the
Blood angels being more bloody
Space wolves being more wolfy
Black Templars being more Crusadery
And the dark angels being exactly the same (except for having termie troops but the wolfy marines have that)

Isn't 8 alien fractions enough? We probably have too much IoM in general (Books games ect), but if it's what people want it's what they want.

I'm not saying it's a financially sound idea for GW, I was just saying what I thought would be "better"

ChocolateGork wrote:HAHAHA eat more resources.

What resources? It doesn't take long to make a codex. There is only month's between releases because they sell more that way.

If it doesn't take that much effort or time, how come we need to drop any Marine Codeci?

And yes, I'm a bit upset because it's the same thing in every single one of these threads: people assuming that every marine codex plays the same and thus treating every marine player as some sort of second-class citizen. I guess I might be overly zealous, but I've had enough of people treating every marine release as being of the same army.

Sorry if I come off as rude, my social skills are truly atrocious, and the Internet doesn't exactly help.

We need to merge the codexes because it would allow for more frequent updates of the codex's. If 6 marine codexes didn't need updating then Necrons wouldnt be 10 years old and dark eldar wouldn't of gotten so old and Tau wouldn't suck.

And actually all the marine codex's play the same with one major difference in each one.

BA-Fast AND FNP

BT-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

DA-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

Wolves-Wolves and Cheap troops and Devastators.

If all the marines were in a single codex then they would have balanced points and you could use a trait/chapter system like from 4th ed to make them unique and give them special rules. You could have special characters and Special options for each chapter.

ChocolateGork wrote:We need to merge the codexes because it would allow for more frequent updates of the codex's. If 6 marine codexes didn't need updating then Necrons wouldnt be 10 years old and dark eldar wouldn't of gotten so old and Tau wouldn't suck.

And actually all the marine codex's play the same with one major difference in each one.

BA-Fast AND FNP

BT-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

DA-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

Wolves-Wolves and Cheap troops and Devastators.

If all the marines were in a single codex then they would have balanced points and you could use a trait/chapter system like from 4th ed to make them unique and give them special rules. You could have special characters and Special options for each chapter.

Actually all marine army's don't play the same even army's in the same codex can play radically differnt. Thats like me saying all zenos army's play the same totally untrue and rediculos to even say.

ChocolateGork wrote:We need to merge the codexes because it would allow for more frequent updates of the codex's. If 6 marine codexes didn't need updating then Necrons wouldnt be 10 years old and dark eldar wouldn't of gotten so old and Tau wouldn't suck.

And who's going to pay for those updates? As it is now, the extra marine codices pay for the updating of some of the other armies because the marines are more popular. Remove the spread of marine book releases and you won't have the funds to fuel the other armies. I can agree with updating all old Codices with FAQ/Errata updates similar to the ones that DA and BT received though.

ChocolateGork wrote:
BT-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

DA-Terminators and abusing a really GOOD FAQ. A kind of FAQ NO ONE ELSE GOT.

These two are mutually exclusive, you can't say that no one else got it if there's someone else who got it. Also, how the hell is playing by the rules abusing? I mean really, how in any feasible way can you, with a straight face, claim that playing according to the rulebook is abusing??

ChocolateGork wrote:If all the marines were in a single codex then they would have balanced points and you could use a trait/chapter system like from 4th ed to make them unique and give them special rules. You could have special characters and Special options for each chapter.

And all you'd end up with is people taking the same two or three traits over and over and over, just like in 4th. Again, doesn't help diversity at all.

Nice as it would be, speaking as a player, to have all of the Astartes chapters in a single hefty hardback, I don't see Games Workshop changing their business model to one which would suit that. Perhaps those who affect to despise them should, given that Space Marines (according to figures which are doubtless out of date, but which are the only ones we have) make up more than 50% of Warhammer 40,000's sales, be glad they haven't correspondingly received more than half of the codices.

The Space Marines are the iconic toy soldiers of the Warhammer 40,000 universe, you're just going to have to have to live with that. Now you can, as some in this thread have, argue that support breeds popularity, but there's more to it than that. As a concept, the Marines are distinctive, (relatively) original and appealing in look and background to the teenagers Games Workshop want as new customers; they are what make the fast, reliable profits which allow the company to accept lower, longer-term returns on other model ranges.

It would help if GW could get away from the release pattern of two codexes a year, one of which is SM.

This could be achieved by releasing codexes more frequently and releasing two non-SM codexes for each SM book.

Kilkrazy wrote:It would help if GW could get away from the release pattern of two codexes a year, one of which is SM.

This could be achieved by releasing codexes more frequently and releasing two non-SM codexes for each SM book.

This I can agree with. The only issue would be that GW would have to release stuff for both Fantasy and 40k very close to each other, something I'm not sure they'd consider.

there is a nice poll about this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/389450.page

i started that one, its not to exact

and from dakka polls:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246976.page

It sorta makes sense for the Imperium to have half of the armies when from the story perspective it is the Imperium against everything else.

gmaleron wrote:

When broken down exactly HALF of the 40k armies in the universe are dedicated to the Imperium (with over 6 of them alone being Space Marines which is 33% or 1/3 of all the armies available).

Is it time for this thread again? Yep...

*Sets watch*

They make them because they sell and make GW a ton of money. Full stop on the discussion of why 50% are space marines.

Kilkrazy wrote:It would help if GW could get away from the release pattern of two codexes a year, one of which is SM.

This could be achieved by releasing codexes more frequently and releasing two non-SM codexes for each SM book.

If only KK, if only.

Variety is better than limitations. For each release of a new edition of 40k, there should be a PDF update of every army's codex until a new codex comes out.

From another perspective, that creates a great and mainly unexploited opportunity to explore the potentially massive non-IoM side of the story.

I don't know if more 40K books per year would clash with Fantasy. I suppose it depends on the amount of cross-over (number of players who buy both).

40k is a game that centers on Space Marines, it's always best if you reconcile yourself to that fact. Sales is a big part of that, but so is psychology. This is a game played by humans, the less imaginative and flexible players will tend to gravitate towards IoM armies.
I like variety as much as the next guy but SM armies will ALWAYS dominate 40k