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Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?

No. But is one Brother Coa better thAn 1 standard Stormtrooper or even 1 standard Astartes?

Thank you all for this info it was very useful.

I asked this because 1 friend from our Warhammer 40k group on Facebook asked me who is better - Space Marine tactical squad or Cadian Kasrkin squad. I didn't know what to say so I asked here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FuryTheBerserker wrote:
No. But is one Brother Coa better thAn 1 standard Stormtrooper or even 1 standard Astartes?

I am ordinary Human. Stormtroopers are trained better than SAS and SEAL's, Space Marines are above all that.
This should give you some idea...

Brother Coa wrote:Thank you all for this info it was very useful.

I asked this because 1 friend from our Warhammer 40k group on Facebook asked me who is better - Space Marine tactical squad or Cadian Kasrkin squad. I didn't know what to say so I asked here.

Well then, why didnt you ask that question instead of 1 vs 1?

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Thank you all for this info it was very useful.

I asked this because 1 friend from our Warhammer 40k group on Facebook asked me who is better - Space Marine tactical squad or Cadian Kasrkin squad. I didn't know what to say so I asked here.

Well then, why didnt you ask that question instead of 1 vs 1?

You think that squad vs. squad would be different result?

Brother Coa wrote:I am ordinary Human. Stormtroopers are trained better than SAS and SEAL's, Space Marines are above all that.
This should give you some idea...

You underestimate yourself Mr. Coa

Brother Coa wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Thank you all for this info it was very useful.

I asked this because 1 friend from our Warhammer 40k group on Facebook asked me who is better - Space Marine tactical squad or Cadian Kasrkin squad. I didn't know what to say so I asked here.

Well then, why didnt you ask that question instead of 1 vs 1?

You think that squad vs. squad would be different result?

Not really, the SMs will still own the Stormtroopers, but it would have created an entirely different discussion (squad tactics etc.) and would have answered the actual question asked instead of the one you asked.

yevix wrote:
we're not arguing that. We're talking about mano-e-mano pitfight with their guns.

we are not arguing whatsoever is very much established that a space marine will DESTROY any human in a 1 on 1 fight - I could actually see straken being killed by 1 space marine (just a standard space marine) and he is beyond elite guardsmen standards.

Lynata wrote:

yevix wrote:millions of stormtroopers

Depends which ones you mean. The Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment is 10.000 strong.
.

just think about it this way - there are millions of imperial guard worlds (i.e worlds with imperial guard armies) each world if like ours would have billions of people (hive worlds have many more billions) if each world has 1000 elite guardsmen (similar to stormtroopers they may not be called stormtroopers but they are just as good) thats 1 000 000 000 elite guardsmen all together.

I know they aren't actually storm troopers (just elite guardsmen) but they would be just the same in terms of skill - just like there are multiple different types of space marine - 1 storm troopers vs space marine is very bias - which space marine? blood angels go mental in combat - black templars are religious fanatics - each one would perform differently in combat - you can imagine a blood angel or black templar simply rushing into cc whilst an ultramarine would more then likely shoot you. then we get things like raven guard who use guerrilla tactics.

Chowderhead wrote: And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

40k disagrees.

Melissia wrote:

Chowderhead wrote: And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

40k disagrees.

40k and common sense? Ha.

yevix wrote:I know they aren't actually storm troopers (just elite guardsmen) but they would be just the same in terms of skill

Now that you mention it, there are the Grenadiers - those guys probably get as close to Storm Troopers as possible, but they still cannot deepstrike or infiltrate. This could be interpreted as inferior training, or merely a tactical consideration. I'd argue there are few worlds who train their Grenadiers as extensively as the Schola does and there remains a certain difference (neglectable in terms of TT stats though), but that is admittedly a matter of personal interpretation and not something either of us could prove. We could probably agree on that the differences are so small that it doesn't matter much.

Lynata wrote:

yevix wrote:millions of stormtroopers

Depends which ones you mean. The Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment is 10.000 strong.
Then there's also the ISTs and Cadian Kasrkin which have near-similar training and equipment (resulting in an identical statline). But I'm still not sure they would go beyond a million in number.

Storm Troopers are very much elite, and ironically it probably is easier to make a Space Marine than to make a Storm Trooper - simply because the Space Marines have access to genetical enhancements that a Storm Trooper does not. The latter will have to rely on his natural human ability alone. Basically, where the Astartes may already create a superior warrior with an average initiate pushed to 90%, the Storm Trooper will have to take the whole 100% ... and will still be inferior after the Marine has ascended. "The best of the best" are barely good enough, and where Space Marines have no problem finding new recruits on a few worlds within their domain, the Storm Trooper regiment is recruited from all across the entire Imperium.
These high entrance requirements also the reason for why there seem to be comparatively few SoB.

I dont think it's easier to make a SM than to make a Storm Trooper, first the wanna be SM must past test to see if hes fit for the job , then then genetical enhancements(some dont survive this), then the training etc etc .... Storm troopers are took from regular human with good skills ..... do the math .....

Ilove40k wrote:

Lynata wrote:

yevix wrote:millions of stormtroopers

Depends which ones you mean. The Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment is 10.000 strong.
Then there's also the ISTs and Cadian Kasrkin which have near-similar training and equipment (resulting in an identical statline). But I'm still not sure they would go beyond a million in number.

Storm Troopers are very much elite, and ironically it probably is easier to make a Space Marine than to make a Storm Trooper - simply because the Space Marines have access to genetical enhancements that a Storm Trooper does not. The latter will have to rely on his natural human ability alone. Basically, where the Astartes may already create a superior warrior with an average initiate pushed to 90%, the Storm Trooper will have to take the whole 100% ... and will still be inferior after the Marine has ascended. "The best of the best" are barely good enough, and where Space Marines have no problem finding new recruits on a few worlds within their domain, the Storm Trooper regiment is recruited from all across the entire Imperium.
These high entrance requirements also the reason for why there seem to be comparatively few SoB.

I dont think it's easier to make a SM than to make a Storm Trooper, first the wanna be SM must past test to see if hes fit for the job , then then genetical enhancements(some dont survive this), then the training etc etc .... Storm troopers are took from regular human with good skills ..... do the math .....

Dear God the grammar...

It may not be easier to make SM's, but i would say it is sure as heck quicker! A Stormtrooper must spend their entire lives training to be at the stage they are (peak skills), whereas a Marine can be 'made' much quicker than this.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Ilove40k wrote:

Lynata wrote:

yevix wrote:millions of stormtroopers

Depends which ones you mean. The Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment is 10.000 strong.
Then there's also the ISTs and Cadian Kasrkin which have near-similar training and equipment (resulting in an identical statline). But I'm still not sure they would go beyond a million in number.

Storm Troopers are very much elite, and ironically it probably is easier to make a Space Marine than to make a Storm Trooper - simply because the Space Marines have access to genetical enhancements that a Storm Trooper does not. The latter will have to rely on his natural human ability alone. Basically, where the Astartes may already create a superior warrior with an average initiate pushed to 90%, the Storm Trooper will have to take the whole 100% ... and will still be inferior after the Marine has ascended. "The best of the best" are barely good enough, and where Space Marines have no problem finding new recruits on a few worlds within their domain, the Storm Trooper regiment is recruited from all across the entire Imperium.
These high entrance requirements also the reason for why there seem to be comparatively few SoB.

I dont think it's easier to make a SM than to make a Storm Trooper, first the wanna be SM must past test to see if hes fit for the job , then then genetical enhancements(some dont survive this), then the training etc etc .... Storm troopers are took from regular human with good skills ..... do the math .....

Dear God the grammar...

It may not be easier to make SM's, but i would say it is sure as heck quicker! A Stormtrooper must spend their entire lives training to be at the stage they are (peak skills), whereas a Marine can be 'made' much quicker than this.

sorry for the grammar im french! yeah a french-canadian, or a frog!

Ilove40k wrote:I dont think it's easier to make a SM than to make a Storm Trooper, first the wanna be SM must past test to see if hes fit for the job , then then genetical enhancements(some dont survive this), then the training etc etc .... Storm troopers are took from regular human with good skills ..... do the math .....

The Storm Trooper regiment takes the best 10.000 men from the entire Imperium's Schola program. Then, there are 1.000 Space Marine Chapters which each recruit 1.000 of the best men of just the few worlds under their protection. Both the numbers as well as the scope of recruitment favour the Storm Troopers - You do the math.

The genetical enhancements are what would make someone who is not as good as a Storm Trooper better than one, and a newly minted Storm Trooper will have ~15-20 years of Schola training under his belt whereas a newly minted Scout Marine has ... one or two years of neophyte instructions? Unfortunately, I'm not sure how long a Scout stays in the 10th company either before allowing to ascend to become a fully-fledged Brother Marine.

That said, of course the Astartes will live much longer than an ordinary human and will grow more skilled with each hour of combat experience, eventually surpassing the Storm Trooper who will have to retire due to old age or at least be relegated to other duties (many become Commissars later in their career), provided both the Marine as well as the Storm Trooper will live long enough. I am under the impression that few Marines manage to surpass the 100-year-mark though, but here I'm going entirely by missing "skull studs" on most images, which may or may not depend on Chapter tradition. Perhaps someone more versed in Astartes fluff can add something there.

Lynata wrote:Not at all. As per Codex material, even your common off-the-mill lasgun is theoretically capable of bypassing the armoured protection of powered armour, as it is mentioned as "reducing the chance of injury from most common small arms by 50-85%".
Neither power armour nor an Astartes must be seen as invulnerable as they may be described in some BL "hero novels" where you have the protagonists walk through orbital bombardment without even getting a scratch.

That said, of course a Space Marine will still have the advantage, both in experience as well as in equipment and constitution. I'd say it very much depends on the circumstances, including the element of surprise.

Marines have walked through orbital bombardment without getting a scratch in codex material. They have also survived Warpfire bombs placed by Ahriman that incinerated every single guardsman present and destroyed the largest Librarium outside of the Sol system. Also, lasguns aren't the "small arms" that Space Marines generally have to deal with. Power Armour is not invulnerable, but it's incredibly durable regardless. Even if the lasgun breaches the armour, it's still not guaranteed to kill the Marine inside.

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Dear God the grammar...

Look brother, not everyone here is fortunate enough to be born in a place were English is primary language. But we try our best to express ourselves and little patience from your side would be nice... Thank you.

Void__Dragon wrote:Marines have walked through orbital bombardment without getting a scratch in codex material.

I think I have heard of what you reference here before, and in that case the Marines were inside a building and as such not hit directly. I'm quite sure orbital bombardment would obliterate anything affected by direct impact, at least as long as it is not protected by voidshields. If it were otherwise, we would have a contradiction here, for the 5E Marine Codex also clearly gives us an example of volcano cannons having no problems obliterating Marines as well as their vehicles, and I'm sure Imperial warships are better armed than a superheavy IG tank.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, lasguns aren't the "small arms" that Space Marines generally have to deal with.

Lasguns are easily amongst the "most common small arms" in the galaxy known to the IoM, and it fits neatly to how it works in the game, too:
As per Codex fluff, the range of damage reduction goes as far as 85%, which leaves a 15% chance for the lightest weapon to wound.
On the TT, a lasgun hit has a 16.5% chance to incapacitate a Space Marine.
You may say coincidence, I however suggest that the fluff was written for and in accordance with the TT rules instead of existing as a byproduct that has nothing to do with the game.

Void__Dragon wrote:Even if the lasgun breaches the armour, it's still not guaranteed to kill the Marine inside.

Here I agree, of course - though much would have to be attributed to the Marine's superior constitution and genetically enhanced resistance. A Sister of Battle would die much easier, despite her armour offering the same protection.

FuryTheBerserker wrote:
You underestimate yourself Mr. Coa

Well I am waking up to this song every morning for 3 years now...




I just say Guardsman instead of Citizens, Imperium onstead of Federation and Lasgun instead of Gun.

Lynata wrote:

Ilove40k wrote:I dont think it's easier to make a SM than to make a Storm Trooper, first the wanna be SM must past test to see if hes fit for the job , then then genetical enhancements(some dont survive this), then the training etc etc .... Storm troopers are took from regular human with good skills ..... do the math .....

The Storm Trooper regiment takes the best 10.000 men from the entire Imperium's Schola program. Then, there are 1.000 Space Marine Chapters which each recruit 1.000 of the best men of just the few worlds under their protection. Both the numbers as well as the scope of recruitment favour the Storm Troopers - You do the math.

The genetical enhancements are what would make someone who is not as good as a Storm Trooper better than one, and a newly minted Storm Trooper will have ~15-20 years of Schola training under his belt whereas a newly minted Scout Marine has ... one or two years of neophyte instructions? Unfortunately, I'm not sure how long a Scout stays in the 10th company either before allowing to ascend to become a fully-fledged Brother Marine.

That said, of course the Astartes will live much longer than an ordinary human and will grow more skilled with each hour of combat experience, eventually surpassing the Storm Trooper who will have to retire due to old age or at least be relegated to other duties (many become Commissars later in their career), provided both the Marine as well as the Storm Trooper will live long enough. I am under the impression that few Marines manage to surpass the 100-year-mark though, but here I'm going entirely by missing "skull studs" on most images, which may or may not depend on Chapter tradition. Perhaps someone more versed in Astartes fluff can add something there.

Time speaking yes ! Because its over a long period of time! But technologicaly speaking its harder to make a SM!

Lynata wrote:I think I have heard of what you reference here before, and in that case the Marines were inside a building and as such not hit directly. I'm quite sure orbital bombardment would obliterate anything affected by direct impact, at least as long as it is not protected by voidshields. If it were otherwise, we would have a contradiction here, for the 5E Marine Codex also clearly gives us an example of volcano cannons having no problems obliterating Marines as well as their vehicles, and I'm sure Imperial warships are better armed than a superheavy IG tank.

Barrage Bombs on the tabletop apparently are AP4, though they were in terms of penetration obviously not as powerful as other forms of orbital bombardment. Also, Volcano Cannons should be able to equal starship weaponry IMHO, if we compare them to other weapons with similar power. Gauss Annihilators for instance, fired by Necron Pylons, have been known to be used as anti-air weaponry to shoot down enemy starships. Also, the Grey Knights codex explicitly attributes the survival of the Grey Knights to their armour. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a Space Marine could survive being hit directly in the face by a barrage bomb, but their armour can withstand forces far beyond that of a lasgun's.

Lynata wrote:Lasguns are easily amongst the "most common small arms" in the galaxy known to the IoM, and it fits neatly to how it works in the game, too:
As per Codex fluff, the range of damage reduction goes as far as 85%, which leaves a 15% chance for the lightest weapon to wound.
On the TT, a lasgun hit has a 16.5% chance to incapacitate a Space Marine.
You may say coincidence, I however suggest that the fluff was written for and in accordance with the TT rules instead of existing as a byproduct that has nothing to do with the game.

True, but Power Armour wasn't designed to stand up to lasguns, it was designed to stand up to better. Boltguns, shuriken catapaults, Gauss Flayers, Pulse Rifles, Shootas/Sluggas, all are small arms weaponry. All are better than a lasgun. Also, despite its use on the tabletop, "wound" does not equate to "incapacitate," so the percentages, though matching up, don't really mean the same thing. Similarly, it is technically possible for a group of guardsmen to kill a Daemon Prince in melee or shooting. You will never see that happen in the fluff, not that I can recall.

And where are you getting that number from again?

Lynata wrote:Here I agree, of course - though much would have to be attributed to the Marine's superior constitution and genetically enhanced resistance. A Sister of Battle would die much easier, despite her armour offering the same protection.

Well, of course. If a las-round penetrates a weak point of the armour, like the side of the knee for example, then that won't hinder the Marine greatly, any wound will clot nigh-instantly and the Power Armour will compensate for muscle damage allowing him to fight.

Though I am mostly talking about the standard guardsman, and in hindsight am not sure why. A "Hot Shot Lasgun" (Hellgun really is a much better term) as used by a Stormtrooper can quite easily penetrate Power Armour, that's what it is designed for, though it's still not guaranteed to kill the Marine. A headshot should be sufficient though.

Void__Dragon wrote:Barrage Bombs on the tabletop apparently are AP4, though they were in terms of penetration obviously not as powerful as other forms of orbital bombardment.

S6 AP4 Barrage Bombs are a weapon relying on dispersal damage, of course they don't focus their full potential on a single spot. Take note that it may still kill the Marine, it's just that it doesn't bypass the armour completely. As opposed to, say, a Lance Strike with S10 AP1 ...

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, the Grey Knights codex explicitly attributes the survival of the Grey Knights to their armour.

Of course, as it would be their armour that would save them from the debris. If orbital bombardment makes the roof come down, that'd still be something where power armour could help. Or if some bomb hits an area a couple dozen meters to your side. As long as it doesn't strike the armour directly, it will only have to bear a fraction of the unleashed force.

Void__Dragon wrote:Don't get me wrong, I don't think a Space Marine could survive being hit directly in the face by a barrage bomb, but their armour can withstand forces far beyond that of a lasgun's.

The fluff seems to indicate otherwise. I do think there will be many that agree with you, but I just feel pretty certain that this vision originates in the same corner where the "Movie Marines = accurate representation" or "Marines are at least 9 feet big" idea comes from. Which in turn I think is a perception born chiefly out of exaggerated novel representation.

Void__Dragon wrote:True, but Power Armour wasn't designed to stand up to lasguns, it was designed to stand up to better. Boltguns, shuriken catapaults, Gauss Flayers, Pulse Rifles, Shootas/Sluggas, all are small arms weaponry.

And all are less common - except perhaps shootas, though even there I'm not too sure.
Power armour was actually not designed to stand up to half the weapons you mentioned; back when power armour was developed, humanity did not even know those races existed. It was designed for reconquering the lost colonies of mankind. And the Emperor did not truly expect to see his Marines fight themselves, either. It still ends up being useful, though.

"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

In general I think the capabilities of the sturdy lasgun are often underestimated. People call it "flashlight", but it's still a highly advanced weapon, only losing in direct comparison to even more advanced equipment of the 41st millennium. Lasguns can take out Marines on the TT with a relatively reasonable chance, I am quite confident this would not be so if this should not happen in the fluff. Yes, it would require lucky hits (or very good aiming) - but that's why, on average, only one out of eighteen shots is capable of neutralizing an Astartes (including the BS test).

Void__Dragon wrote:And where are you getting that number from again?

Codex : Angels of Death. It has one of the most detailed and comprehensive explanations about power armour that I've ever seen. It's like a full page of text devoted entirely to describing how it works, how thick its plates are, what it is capable of, how much it weighs and so on. Cool stuff.

But I guess we have digressed from the original thread somewhat - as you have mentioned yourself, all of this does not really concern Storm Troopers. Though it is still a topic very much worth discussing, in my opinion.

Lynata wrote:S6 AP4 Barrage Bombs are a weapon relying on dispersal damage, of course they don't focus their full potential on a single spot. Take note that it may still kill the Marine, it's just that it doesn't bypass the armour completely. As opposed to, say, a Lance Strike with S10 AP1 ...

Of course it may still kill a Marine, a guardsman with a chainsword could potentially kill a Marine, but the armour can and has survived it.

Lynata wrote:Of course, as it would be their armour that would save them from the debris. If orbital bombardment makes the roof come down, that'd still be something where power armour could help. Or if some bomb hits an area a couple dozen meters to your side. As long as it doesn't strike the armour directly, it will only have to bear a fraction of the unleashed force.

Actually, the roof coming down is one of the best ways to kill a Marine, fun fact. Even if you're unharmed, you're pretty useless if you can't move.

I suppose it is possible that the buildings may have bore the brunt of the barrage (Damn Ward's vague writing), but the same can't be said of Ahriman's Warpfire bomb, which hit the Marines and the guardsmen present more directly.

Lynata wrote:The fluff seems to indicate otherwise. I do think there will be many that agree with you, but I just feel pretty certain that this vision originates in the same corner where the "Movie Marines = accurate representation" or "Marines are at least 9 feet big" idea comes from. Which in turn I think is a perception born chiefly out of exaggerated novel representation.

Where does it indicate otherwise? Codex material has Marines being hit in the face by a bolter round, and only being dazed. A Chaos Marine being hit in the chest by three bolter rounds just pissed him off, also codex material. Hell, a lasgun has trouble penetrating lightly armoured Ork Boys, let alone power armour.

Do not confuse me for someone who thinks the Movie Marines list was meant to be an accurate representation, nor someone who thinks Marines are nine feet tall (Which is about as tall as Lion El'Jonson apparently, a primarch, fun fact).

Lynata wrote:And all are less common - except perhaps shootas, though even there I'm not too sure.
Power armour was actually not designed to stand up to half the weapons you mentioned; back when power armour was developed, humanity did not even know those races existed. It was designed for reconquering the lost colonies of mankind. And the Emperor did not truly expect to see his Marines fight themselves, either. It still ends up being useful, though.

"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

In general I think the capabilities of the sturdy lasgun are often underestimated. People call it "flashlight", but it's still a highly advanced weapon, only losing in direct comparison to even more advanced equipment of the 41st millennium. Lasguns can take out Marines on the TT with a relatively reasonable chance, I am quite confident this would not be so if this should not happen in the fluff. Yes, it would require lucky hits (or very good aiming) - but that's why, on average, only one out of eighteen shots is capable of neutralizing an Astartes (including the BS test).

Mark 7 Power Armour, the most common Power Armour, was developed in the later stages of the Horus Heresy. In other words, it was meant to withstand Marine weaponry. Heck, the most common pre-Heresy armour, Mark IV patter armour, was made near the end of the Great Crusade, intended to be the final and best pattern power armour. This being after the Imperium had come across Orks and Eldar.

Lasguns aren't powerful in comparison to other small arms in 40k, but they're very reliable and easy to maintain, that is why they are used. They are very practical in terms of being a weapon used by the Imperial Guard. But, sometimes the TT just doesn't match up with fluff. That's why you'll see Mephiston instant death the Nightbringer in close combat. Though I will admit the Lasgun's chance to down a Marine seems fine enough to me, partially because the guardsman wielding it is more skilled than the fandom gives him credit for. Though it's still no bolter, and certainly not as powerful as a Pulse Rifle or Gauss Flayer.

Actually, I think one aspect that the TT doesn't translate very well of the fluff is the difference in reaction-time. A Space Marine could easily down a guardsman with a single bolter shot before the guardsman can fire at all due to much superior reaction-time, Eldar as well. But I digress.

Lynata wrote:Codex : Angels of Death. It has one of the most detailed and comprehensive explanations about power armour that I've ever seen. It's like a full page of text devoted entirely to describing how it works, how thick its plates are, what it is capable of, how much it weighs and so on. Cool stuff.

But I guess we have digressed from the original thread somewhat - as you have mentioned yourself, all of this does not really concern Storm Troopers. Though it is still a topic very much worth discussing, in my opinion.

I'll give it a look then.

Yeah, I would agree. I will admit the Lasgun, especially when employed en masse, is a capable and efficient weapon, and has a decent enough chance of downing a Marine if it hits a weak place in the armour as well as hitting the Marine somewhere that his enhanced constitution and the armour's failsafes can't compensate for.

Lynata wrote:

yevix wrote:I know they aren't actually storm troopers (just elite guardsmen) but they would be just the same in terms of skill

Now that you mention it, there are the Grenadiers - those guys probably get as close to Storm Troopers as possible, but they still cannot deepstrike or infiltrate. This could be interpreted as inferior training, or merely a tactical consideration. I'd argue there are few worlds who train their Grenadiers as extensively as the Schola does and there remains a certain difference (neglectable in terms of TT stats though), but that is admittedly a matter of personal interpretation and not something either of us could prove. We could probably agree on that the differences are so small that it doesn't matter much.

From what I've read of stormtroopers, I would say that 40k stormtroopers are quite similar in role to the real-life equivalents (with the exception of inquisitorial stormtroopers).

I read in one of the ciaphas cain books about a depleted squad of storm troopers capable of holding back necron warriors with disciplined lasfire. Dont Necrons compare equally if not even more so in the lines of survivablity with a Space Marine.

Also on Gaunts Ghost. A squad of scouts armed with tweaked lasguns and sniper rifles manage to take out a squad of chaos space marines.

I think with the right training and experience a stormtrooper could take out a space marine based on the info I have just supplied.

Banahir wrote:I read in one of the ciaphas cain books about a depleted squad of storm troopers capable of holding back necron warriors with disciplined lasfire. Dont Necrons compare equally if not even more so in the lines of survivablity with a Space Marine.

Also on Gaunts Ghost. A squad of scouts armed with tweaked lasguns and sniper rifles manage to take out a squad of chaos space marines.

I think with the right training and experience a stormtrooper could take out a space marine based on the info I have just supplied.

Not sure if you mean Traitor General when you say Gaunts Ghosts but it wasn't simply tweaked lasguns ans sniper rifles...
The Necrons in Cain advanced slowly (as is their manner) and in single file whilst the stormtroopers managed to stack up so that 3 could fire at the same time.

What I thought was most interesting about their appearance in the Cain books was that he saw them as being as aloof and removed from common humanity by their brutalising training and as the Astartes - whilst the Cain books are self-admittedly imperfect accounts, it encourages the notion that, augmentation and power armour aside, the Stormtroopers, in skill and unhesitating devotion, are as close to Marines as one is likely to find.

Banahir wrote:I read in one of the ciaphas cain books about a depleted squad of storm troopers capable of holding back necron warriors with disciplined lasfire. Dont Necrons compare equally if not even more so in the lines of survivablity with a Space Marine.

Necrons generally have similar durability to Marines, only they get back up after their skull is shattered.

I assume they were using Hellguns/Hot Shot Lasguns.

purplefood wrote:
Not sure if you mean Traitor General when you say Gaunts Ghosts but it wasn't simply tweaked lasguns ans sniper rifles...
The Necrons in Cain advanced slowly (as is their manner) and in single file whilst the stormtroopers managed to stack up so that 3 could fire at the same time.

Yea sorry, The reference I was using is from a gaunt's ghosts omnibus called The Lost. But yea Traitor general is what I was refering to. Still though its pretty dam impressive what they achieved.

That is a good point regarding ciaphas cain and it adds up to how a stormtrooper would be capable of taking out a space marine. If it takes 3 shots from a Hellgun to kill a necron then logic stands that the same can be applied to a space marine. Take this scenario for example. A marine is surronded by 3 stormtroopers they open fire, No doubt that would kill the marine outright?

But this isn't three Stormtroopers fighting one Space Marine. This is a mano-e-mano fight between the two.

Banahir wrote:Yea sorry, The reference I was using is from a gaunt's ghosts omnibus called The Lost. But yea Traitor general is what I was refering to.

That is a good point and it adds up to how a stormtrooper would be capable of taking out a space marine. If it takes 3 shots from a Hellgun to kill a necron then logic stands that the same can be applied to a space marine. Take this scenario for example. A marine is surronded by 3 stormtroopers they open fire, No doubt that would kill the marine outright?

If they can fire first, then probably so, since Hellguns penetrate power armour.

Also, Hellguns can't kill Necrons.