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Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?
Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?

No.

Space Marines have better training, are physically superior, and have better equipment, specifically armour.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if they have anti-Astartes training.

Though a Storm Trooper besting an Astartes due to the nature of their equipment wouldn't surprise me.

No...
Closer than a normal human but still no.

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?

Nope. They're just the best non-enhanced warriors of the Imperium, probably on the level of SoB's.

Imperial Guard Special Ops Stormtroopers/Kasrkin that is. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are better then average Guardsmen but there's many more of them and they're not ultra-elite, just elite.

Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

No.

I always thought it would be interesting for Stormtrooper regiments (and specifically those of the inquisition) to have specific anti-astartes training / tactics and psycho-indoctrination, a la order 66

Isn't there some bit of fluff somewhere, where it said that a karskin could potentially beat a SM?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Isn't there some bit of fluff somewhere, where it said that a karskin could potentially beat a SM?

I haven't heard of any...
I mean yeah it's possible but SM have a big advantage.

Technically speaking anything could "potentially" beat a Space Marine, ie: a lucky las-shot, a lucky choppa hit, a lucky shuriken to the face...

Nope.

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?
Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

No. And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

Given that both are trained in the Schola, I would say that candidates for the Storm Trooper regiment are drilled similar to the Sisters Militant: to the peak of human abilities.
And since they are male and as such have a biological advantage in muscle growth, they would likely even surpass the Sisters in raw strength, at least as long as the latter do not don their powered armour.

Note that "peak of human abilities" likely refers to a balanced set of valuable / desirable skills and abilities, so both Storm Troopers as well as Sister likely forego the maximum of what would be possible in strength in favor of not neglecting other aspects of their body. Muscles isn't everything, after all, and focusing too much on them would lead to disadvantages in other areas such as mobility, dexterity or survivability. A body builder is not the perfect soldier.

Retribution wrote:I always thought it would be interesting for Stormtrooper regiments (and specifically those of the inquisition) to have specific anti-astartes training / tactics and psycho-indoctrination, a la order 66

Actually, that's what the Sisters are for. They even have vaults of special equipment just for that purpose - at least according to Andy Hoare's article in CJ49.

The IG Storm Trooper regiment works by attaching its units to various Imperial Guard regiments all over the Imperium, not by acting independently. However, there's also the Inquisition Storm Troopers, where such training and indoctrination may seem rather likely ...
Whilst not explicitly pointed out, it does seem that ISTs are recruited out of the Schola as well, perhaps even from the same classes that train candidates for the Munitorum's regiment.

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?
Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

No. And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

Unless that man is using a Plasma gun, or a meltagun, or a rocket launcher; it's impressive how weapons can tip the balance...like how men today can take on tanks

Even then, an Astartes has far superior reaction-time to a Stormtrooper.

Void__Dragon wrote:Even then, an Astartes has far superior reaction-time to a Stormtrooper.

Considering the reaction time and abilities of real-world special forces today, I imagine a Stormtrooper would be considerably capable of tracking an Astartes quickly enough, especially with bionic augmentation (which i believe is common among such forces?)

Retribution wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?
Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

No. And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

Unless that man is using a Plasma gun, or a meltagun, or a rocket launcher; it's impressive how weapons can tip the balance...like how men today can take on tanks

Well, the man needs to carry that very heavy weaponry in order to penetrate the armour of a Space Marine.

A Space Marine has a faster firing, more reliable way of killing the man with his Bolter, an automatic mini missile launcher. Designed so one bolt will penetrate most readily available armour and explode inside the man, completely obliterating said man in one shot.

Funny how weapons can tip the balance.

Retribution wrote:Considering the reaction time and abilities of real-world special forces today, I imagine a Stormtrooper would be considerably capable of tracking an Astartes quickly enough, especially with bionic augmentation (which i believe is common among such forces?)

And yet the Space Marine is still quicker.

-Loki- wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?
Do they receive some kind of anti-Astartes training in Scoola?

No. And if common sense was applied to the question, one would realize that a man couldn't beat a hundred year old walking man-tank.

Unless that man is using a Plasma gun, or a meltagun, or a rocket launcher; it's impressive how weapons can tip the balance...like how men today can take on tanks

Well, the man needs to carry that very heavy weaponry in order to penetrate the armour of a Space Marine.

A Space Marine has a faster firing, more reliable way of killing the man with his Bolter, an automatic mini missile launcher. Designed so one bolt will penetrate most readily available armour and explode inside the man, completely obliterating said man in one shot.

Funny how weapons can tip the balance.

Yes, the balance is still in a marines favor (because, they're like, SPESS MEHREENS...and we like jerking off to them), but the original logic was that a Stormtrooper was completely incapabaple of killing a "walking-tank"


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Void__Dragon wrote:

Retribution wrote:Considering the reaction time and abilities of real-world special forces today, I imagine a Stormtrooper would be considerably capable of tracking an Astartes quickly enough, especially with bionic augmentation (which i believe is common among such forces?)

And yet the Space Marine is still quicker.

Sure, but that doesn't make the Trooper entirely incapable

Retribution wrote:Sure, but that doesn't make the Trooper entirely incapable

I didn't say they were.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Retribution wrote:Sure, but that doesn't make the Trooper entirely incapable

I didn't say they were.

That seemed to be the implication

Void__Dragon wrote:Though a Storm Trooper besting an Astartes due to the nature of their equipment wouldn't surprise me.

I acknowledged it could happen, but in the fluff the Astartes would be more likely to win.

Assuming this is a straight fight, if the Storm Trooper has the element of surprise, I would say he has a pretty good chance of downing the Astartes.

Though in melee, the Storm Trooper would be pretty helpless.

So context plays a bit of a factor.

How capable are hellguns, or hotshot-packs (or whatever they're called at this point) against heavy armor in terms of current fluff? And yes, in melee a Trooper is boned, i completely acknowledge that...but i assume if a trooper is in melee then his mission has already failed, eh?

Retribution wrote:How capable are hellguns, or hotshot-packs (or whatever they're called at this point) against heavy armor in terms of current fluff? And yes, in melee a Trooper is boned, i completely acknowledge that...but i assume if a trooper is in melee then his mission has already failed, eh?

Well, the hot shot lasgun as it is now called is designed for penetrating heavy armour, like power armour. In-game, it is AP3, though is still S3. So it has better armour penetration than a lasgun, but about as much stopping power.

A headshot should be about guaranteed to kill a Marine I would say.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Retribution wrote:How capable are hellguns, or hotshot-packs (or whatever they're called at this point) against heavy armor in terms of current fluff? And yes, in melee a Trooper is boned, i completely acknowledge that...but i assume if a trooper is in melee then his mission has already failed, eh?

Well, the hot shot lasgun as it is now called is designed for penetrating heavy armour, like power armour. In-game, it is AP3, though is still S3. So it has better armour penetration than a lasgun, but about as much stopping power.

A headshot should be about guaranteed to kill a Marine I would say.

I knew their in-game stats, but i wasn't sure about the actual fluff behind them. How they can punch through armor but remain only as strong as a standard lasgun is beyond me (yes, balance)

Void__Dragon wrote:

Retribution wrote:How capable are hellguns, or hotshot-packs (or whatever they're called at this point) against heavy armor in terms of current fluff? And yes, in melee a Trooper is boned, i completely acknowledge that...but i assume if a trooper is in melee then his mission has already failed, eh?

Well, the hot shot lasgun as it is now called is designed for penetrating heavy armour, like power armour. In-game, it is AP3, though is still S3. So it has better armour penetration than a lasgun, but about as much stopping power.

A headshot should be about guaranteed to kill a Marine I would say.

Given how many marines walk around with half a bionic head...

Head shots may incapacitate but not actually kill a marine. Remember there bodies can heal most wounds that dont kill them outright.

Also the marine will have better senses and optic enhancers so a trooper getting the drop on him is slim

When you need to get down to giving Stormtroopers elements of surprise, weaponry specifically designed to breach power armour and such, it basically says a 'no' to the initial question, since you need to start taking into account things like Space Marines training and possible equipment.

Is 1 Stormtrooper better then 1 standard Astartes?

Straight up, is a storm trooper better than an Astartes. No. Astartes have far, far more training (considering they're functionally immortal), they're bigger, stronger and faster than a human could ever hope to be, and packed full of organs that enhance their abilities. A Storm trooper is a human. A well trained human, but a human, nothing more.

-Loki- wrote:Well, the man needs to carry that very heavy weaponry in order to penetrate the armour of a Space Marine.

Not at all. As per Codex material, even your common off-the-mill lasgun is theoretically capable of bypassing the armoured protection of powered armour, as it is mentioned as "reducing the chance of injury from most common small arms by 50-85%".
Neither power armour nor an Astartes must be seen as invulnerable as they may be described in some BL "hero novels" where you have the protagonists walk through orbital bombardment without even getting a scratch.

That said, of course a Space Marine will still have the advantage, both in experience as well as in equipment and constitution. I'd say it very much depends on the circumstances, including the element of surprise.

Firstly never base your facts on fluff or canon stories, they are made with the hero in mind - take DoW for example (the first one) there were 2 imperial guardsmen who survived chaos assaults for nearly 2 weeks with no contact with any other imperial force - thats a feat in itself (think about it they must have killed a few marines)

then we have tanith first and only there we have a few snipers taking out chaos marines with ease shooting them in the eyes etc

I do have to point something out though, its a lot easier to make imperial stormtroopers then it is to make space marine - so for every 1 space marine made (recruitment, training etc) you could easily make 1 squad of stormtroopers in the same amount of time (maybe even quicker)

so the question is could a space marine beat a squad of stormtroopers - remember there is 1000 chapters with 1000 marines in each chapter (or something like that) there are billions of imperial guardsmen and millions of stormtroopers - so its all fair just dont fallow the fluff to much

yevix wrote:Firstly never base your facts on fluff or canon stories, they are made with the hero in mind - take DoW for example (the first one) there were 2 imperial guardsmen who survived chaos assaults for nearly 2 weeks with no contact with any other imperial force - thats a feat in itself (think about it they must have killed a few marines)

then we have tanith first and only there we have a few snipers taking out chaos marines with ease shooting them in the eyes etc

I do have to point something out though, its a lot easier to make imperial stormtroopers then it is to make space marine - so for every 1 space marine made (recruitment, training etc) you could easily make 1 squad of stormtroopers in the same amount of time (maybe even quicker)

so the question is could a space marine beat a squad of stormtroopers - remember there is 1000 chapters with 1000 marines in each chapter (or something like that) there are billions of imperial guardsmen and millions of stormtroopers - so its all fair just dont fallow the fluff to much

Cool. We're not arguing that. We're talking about mano-e-mano pitfight with their guns.

yevix wrote:millions of stormtroopers

Depends which ones you mean. The Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment is 10.000 strong.
Then there's also the ISTs and Cadian Kasrkin which have near-similar training and equipment (resulting in an identical statline). But I'm still not sure they would go beyond a million in number.

Storm Troopers are very much elite, and ironically it probably is easier to make a Space Marine than to make a Storm Trooper - simply because the Space Marines have access to genetical enhancements that a Storm Trooper does not. The latter will have to rely on his natural human ability alone. Basically, where the Astartes may already create a superior warrior with an average initiate pushed to 90%, the Storm Trooper will have to take the whole 100% ... and will still be inferior after the Marine has ascended. "The best of the best" are barely good enough, and where Space Marines have no problem finding new recruits on a few worlds within their domain, the Storm Trooper regiment is recruited from all across the entire Imperium.
These high entrance requirements also the reason for why there seem to be comparatively few SoB.