Is Shas'o Relentless?

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**juraigamer**

Broadsides and crisis suits are two different things. The codex special rule prohibits moving and firing heavy weapons on crisis suits, something crisis suits don't have anyway. They still have full relentless via the jet pack USR in the main rulebook.

**Rented Tritium**

Avatar 720 wrote:
VoxDei wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

Please point out where the FAQ states "Broadsides". It says "unit" and "Battlesuits" and therefore covers "Battlesuits".

Whilst the point everyone is arguing is moot anyway due to Crisis Suits not having Heavy Weapons, the FAQ posted does not specifically mentioned Broadsides as being the target of it; please point out how "unit" and "Battlesuits" automatically means "Broadsides".

Assuming it's talking about broadsides actually makes the ruling make a lot more sense, since a broadsides' drone would be infantry and wouldn't have relentless from the BRB. The ruling stops making sense as soon as you imagine that it's anything BUT a broadsides, since a crisis suit drone would have relentless ANYWAY and wouldn't NEED an A.S.S. to fire a heavy weapon.

Also, by your OWN ARGUMENT, the stabilisation system would have no effect on a crisis suit (or any suit), since all it does is give slow and purposeful (and by extension, relentless), which you are ITT arguing doesn't help crisis suits. So basically the fact that GW is talking about stabilisation systems on a suit AT ALL proves that they are functional AND that suits DO benefit from the relentless rule, which crisis suits undisputably are granted by the BRB.

The specific prohibition against moving and firing heavy weapons that you quote ITT is word for word identical to the one on broadsides, which, if you are correct, means the advanced stabilisation system does nothing on a broadsides, which you would be hard pressed to convince anyone of.

**Kommissar Kel**

Broadsides are not Crisis suits. Relentless works just fine on them.

Go back to page 27 of the Tau codex and read the section we are talking about(it is a cute little boxout that details special rules for Stealth, Crisis, and broadside suits) Crisis suits are the only ones the wind up with "relentless lite". Steath suits get full relentless from being Jet packs(and as such the Shas'vre can move-and-fire his markerlight should you choose to give him one); and the broadsides can fully benefit from Slow-and-purposeful.

**Rented Tritium**

Kommissar Kel wrote:Broadsides are not Crisis suits. Relentless works just fine on them.

Go back to page 27 of the Tau codex and read the section we are talking about(it is a cute little boxout that details special rules for Stealth, Crisis, and broadside suits) Crisis suits are the only ones the wind up with "relentless lite". Steath suits get full relentless from being Jet packs(and as such the Shas'vre can move-and-fire his markerlight should you choose to give him one); and the broadsides can fully benefit from Slow-and-purposeful.

I have the codex sitting open in front of me and the relentless-lite rule is on both the crisis and broadsides sections. It is the very last line in both of them.

If relentless lite really does stop heavy weapons, then A.S.S. does nothing because the broadsides have relentless-lite.

**Avatar 720**

Rented Tritium wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:
VoxDei wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

Please point out where the FAQ states "Broadsides". It says "unit" and "Battlesuits" and therefore covers "Battlesuits".

Whilst the point everyone is arguing is moot anyway due to Crisis Suits not having Heavy Weapons, the FAQ posted does not specifically mentioned Broadsides as being the target of it; please point out how "unit" and "Battlesuits" automatically means "Broadsides".

Assuming it's talking about broadsides actually makes the ruling make a lot more sense, since a broadsides' drone would be infantry and wouldn't have relentless from the BRB. The ruling stops making sense as soon as you imagine that it's anything BUT a broadsides, since a crisis suit drone would have relentless ANYWAY and wouldn't NEED an A.S.S. to fire a heavy weapon.

Also, by your OWN ARGUMENT, the stabilisation system would have no effect on a crisis suit (or any suit), since all it does is give slow and purposeful (and by extension, relentless), which you are ITT arguing doesn't help crisis suits. So basically the fact that GW is talking about stabilisation systems on a suit AT ALL proves that they are functional AND that suits DO benefit from the relentless rule, which crisis suits undisputably are granted by the BRB.

The specific prohibition against moving and firing heavy weapons that you quote ITT is word for word identical to the one on broadsides, which, if you are correct, means the advanced stabilisation system does nothing on a broadsides, which you would be hard pressed to convince anyone of.

I'm only wondering how "unit" and "Battlesuits" became "Broadsides". As it stands, the FAQ is talking about "Battlesuits". I'm not arguing that it doesn't relate the most to Broadsides, only that stating it does not affect anything other than Broadsides when it clearly says "Battlesuits" is incorrect. If it meant Broadsides it would've specified Broadsides.

**Rented Tritium**

Avatar 720 wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:
VoxDei wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

Please point out where the FAQ states "Broadsides". It says "unit" and "Battlesuits" and therefore covers "Battlesuits".

Whilst the point everyone is arguing is moot anyway due to Crisis Suits not having Heavy Weapons, the FAQ posted does not specifically mentioned Broadsides as being the target of it; please point out how "unit" and "Battlesuits" automatically means "Broadsides".

Assuming it's talking about broadsides actually makes the ruling make a lot more sense, since a broadsides' drone would be infantry and wouldn't have relentless from the BRB. The ruling stops making sense as soon as you imagine that it's anything BUT a broadsides, since a crisis suit drone would have relentless ANYWAY and wouldn't NEED an A.S.S. to fire a heavy weapon.

Also, by your OWN ARGUMENT, the stabilisation system would have no effect on a crisis suit (or any suit), since all it does is give slow and purposeful (and by extension, relentless), which you are ITT arguing doesn't help crisis suits. So basically the fact that GW is talking about stabilisation systems on a suit AT ALL proves that they are functional AND that suits DO benefit from the relentless rule, which crisis suits undisputably are granted by the BRB.

The specific prohibition against moving and firing heavy weapons that you quote ITT is word for word identical to the one on broadsides, which, if you are correct, means the advanced stabilisation system does nothing on a broadsides, which you would be hard pressed to convince anyone of.

I'm only wondering how "unit" and "Battlesuits" became "Broadsides". As it stands, the FAQ is talking about "Battlesuits". I'm not arguing that it doesn't relate the most to Broadsides, only that stating it does not affect anything other than Broadsides when it clearly says "Battlesuits" is incorrect. If it meant Broadsides it would've specified Broadsides.

I'm pointing out that if you apply that ruling to both, you are accidentally eroding your own position in re: relentless-lite overriding relentless.

Let me boil it down to the basic point

Broadsides with stablisation system- Has Relentless (from brb because of slow and purposeful)
Crisis suit- Has relentless (from brb because of jet infantry)

Broadsides with stablisation system- Has Relentless-Lite on p27
Crisis suit- Has relentless-lite on p27

Broadsides with stablisation system- can fire heavy weapons after moving
Crisis suit- cannot fire heavy weapons after moving????????

It does not follow. They either both can or they both can't.

If they both can't, then a drone with a crisis suit can still do it because relentless is just going to check if the squad HAS relentless, not if it works on them. If they both can, then a drone with a crisis DEFINITELY can fire a heavy. So the FAQ, binding as it may be, is obviously wrong if applied to crisis suits, but right if applied to broadsides.

**juraigamer**

Your missing the point about drones and broadsides. Since drones gain the unit type the attach to, and since broadsides are not infantry, the drones do not gain relentless. Also, the advanced stabilization system only effects the model it was given, the USR doesn't confer to the drone.

**Rented Tritium**

juraigamer wrote:Your missing the point about drones and broadsides. Since drones gain the unit type the attach to, and since broadsides are not infantry, the drones do not gain relentless. Also, the advanced stabilization system only effects the model it was given, the USR doesn't confer to the drone.

I don't think you're following the actual conversation. A drone attached to a crisis suit can still fire a heavy weapon because the entire squad has relentless. A drone attached to a broadsides can never fire a heavy weapon because it is both infantry AND does not benefit from the stabilisation system.

Avatar is saying that a drone with a CRISIS suit cannot fire a heavy weapon either because the FAQ just says "battlesuits" (when it should really say "broadsides")

Addionally, avatar has taken a position that crisis suits cannot move and fire heavy weapons (you know if they got some somehow), and I am taking the opposite position.

Basically there are 2 layers to this argument and evidence from each has been presented in the other. It's clearer if you read the whole thing.

**juraigamer**

Crisis suits have relentless, and the drones gain the unit type of what they are attached to (jet packs). I've said that before in this thread.

Since crisis suits are jet infantry, thus have relentless, they can move and fire heavy weapons, and still assault if they wanted to. I've said this before as well.

I fully explained why marker drones can't fire if broadsides move, as a response to the entire mutli-quoted pile of nonsense you replied to, instead of adding to the quoting catastrophe. Perhaps you and your friend here that can't reach a conclusion should either read this tread again or actually search for this question, as it has come up beforehand many times.

**Rented Tritium**

juraigamer wrote:Crisis suits have relentless, and the drones gain the unit type of what they are attached to (jet packs). I've said that before in this thread.

Since crisis suits are jet infantry, thus have relentless, they can move and fire heavy weapons, and still assault if they wanted to. I've said this before as well.

I fully explained why marker drones can't fire if broadsides move, as a response to the entire mutli-quoted pile of nonsense you replied to, instead of adding to the quoting catastrophe. Perhaps you and your friend here that can't reach a conclusion should either read this tread again or actually search for this question, as it has come up beforehand many times.

Oh, well you and I are not disagreeing then. That is my position as well. I thought you were replying to me. Sorry about that.

**VoxDei**

Avatar 720 wrote:
VoxDei wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

Please point out where the FAQ states "Broadsides". It says "unit" and "Battlesuits" and therefore covers "Battlesuits".

Whilst the point everyone is arguing is moot anyway due to Crisis Suits not having Heavy Weapons, the FAQ posted does not specifically mentioned Broadsides as being the target of it; please point out how "unit" and "Battlesuits" automatically means "Broadsides".

Because it's an FAQ and not an errata therefor you must apply logic. The only Battlesuits you would attach a ASS to is a broadside since it does nothing to a crisis. But your right. If you put an ASS on a crisis suit the drone would not gain S&P but it would still be a jetpack with relentless.