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No the codex doesn't say that it is. Can't find it in errata or FAQs. It is relentless in "army builder" and I'm excited as a result.

Thanks

He has a jetpack due to the crisis suit. Models with jetpacks are relentless. Ergo, he is relentless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This applies to all models with jetpacks. Read the info on the crisis suit armor in the 'dex.

Kriswall wrote:He has a jetpack due to the crisis suit. Models with jetpacks are relentless. Ergo, he is relentless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This applies to all models with jetpacks. Read the info on the crisis suit armor in the 'dex.

And the BRB

You need to take a look at the jetpack rules in the main rulebook.

Army builder is not a source of rules.

But yes jetpacks are relentless.

But no, Crisis suits do not have full relentless.

Well, they do have full relentless but then they have individual special rule restrictions that state they cannot move and fire heavy weapons(this is only the case for the crisis suits though; Marker Drones in a Crisis team can move-and-fire their markerlights because they are Jet pack infantry and have no such restriction).

None of that actually matters though because unless you are playing with the special forge world suits none of the Crisis suits can ever get any heavy weapons.

They have full relentless due to the jetpack rules. However the tau codex has a section stating they have psudeo relentless, but this doesn't matter and was for last edition.

Relentless doesn't matter so much since the only heavy weapon the suits can take is a marker drone, which through complicated rules allows the marker drone to move and shoot.

juraigamer wrote:They have full relentless due to the jetpack rules. However the tau codex has a section stating they have psudeo relentless, but this doesn't matter and was for last edition.

Relentless doesn't matter so much since the only heavy weapon the suits can take is a marker drone, which through complicated rules allows the marker drone to move and shoot.

Relentless means you can rapid fire and than assault, gooo Tau!

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

juraigamer wrote:They have full relentless due to the jetpack rules. However the tau codex has a section stating they have psudeo relentless, but this doesn't matter and was for last edition.

Relentless doesn't matter so much since the only heavy weapon the suits can take is a marker drone, which through complicated rules allows the marker drone to move and shoot.

Relentless means you can rapid fire and than assault, gooo Tau!

Assault? Battlesuits?

You must mean use the nifty Jetpack assault move right?

kenshin620 wrote:

Assault? Battlesuits?

You must mean use the nifty Jetpack assault move right?

No, we've all seen the picture.

@Kriswall - Thankyou. Noob question.

@Shrike328 - Thankyou. Noob question.

@Kommisar Kel - No kidding if army builder was the source of rules, then it'd be $80 rather than $40. But I challenge you to tell me a page number the codex or 5thED where they aren't "full relentless"... whatever that means... allow me: pp 52 under JetPacks.

@juraigamer - Thankyou. Noob question. But you're wrong in your second post, a Crisis Suit may take a Rail Rifle (Heavy1)

Again my stated goal: "Humilate IG with the 'inferior codex' (Tau) and take trophies of my BFF's Space Wolves with my Orks." Yes a guardsmen droped me on my head when I was a baby.

Pg 27 in your codex tells why it isn't "full relentless". They cannot fire heavy weapons on move because their battlesuit rules states so. But that doens't really matter because crisis suits doesn't have much heavy weapons

Relentless is a 5th edition USR which allows you to essentially fire the weapon you carry and assault after, if you wish, regardless of the type of weapon.

Crisis suits are NOT allowed to move and fire heavy weapons, despite being relentless via Jet Pack, as they havea SPECIFIC CODEX RULE denying them the use of move and fire heavy weapons.

While yes, technically Broadsides are crisis suits, most people dont think of them as such, so the statement "crisis suits cant take heavies" is de facto correct - and as broadsides are not jet packs they cant move and fire without A.S.S.

The codex doesn't say that they can't move and fire heavy weapons, the codex says that a rule allowing them to rapid fire "DOES NOT EXTEND to heavy weapons"

It never says that ANOTHER rule can't step in and give it to them, just that the rule right there in the codex does not count for heavy weapons. The statement is made as an exception to a specific rule, not as a restriction on the suits themselves.

In short, suits can move and fire heavy weapons in RAW because the codex rule doesn't "deny" them anything.

doktor_g wrote:

@juraigamer - Thankyou. Noob question. But you're wrong in your second post, a Crisis Suit may take a Rail Rifle (Heavy1)

Sorry but crisis suits cannot take rail rifles. Only pathfinders and sniper teams get those.

SPecific beats general. THe more specific codex rule overrides the general rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:SPecific beats general. THe more specific codex rule overrides the general rule.

Only if they actually conflict. In this case they do not.

The codex says it has relentless-lite, the BRB says it has relentless. Thus it has both relentless lite and relentless. The fact that relentless lite does not cover heavy weapons doesn't say anything about what relentless grants.

If you read the codex rule, it actually is not saying that the suits can't fire heavy weapons, it is ONLY saying that relentless-lite doesn't let them fire heavy weapons. It says "THIS" does not extend to heavy weapons. In that statement "THIS" is referring ONLY to relentless-lite. It is saying that THIS specific rule you are reading at this moment does not apply to X. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that crisis suits categorically cannot move and fire heavy weapons, only that relentless-lite does not give them the ability to do so.

You have one rule that says you can do Y (this doesn't extend to X) and another rule that says you can do X and Y, there is no conflict.

Not that it matters since all of the crisis equippable weapons are assault or rapidfire. The only heavy weapon on a suit is the railgun on the broadside (which isn't a crisis suit and a Shas 'O can't be in a broadside anyway).

And before you ask. Drones take on the unit type of the unit they join so a markerlight drone with a unit of crisis suits would be counted as jump infantry...so relentless for that heavy 1 markerlight. Of course if you're putting a markerlight in with a unit of crisis suits, I'd have to ask you why in god's name you're doing something so stupid but hey, different strokes...

agnosto wrote:Not that it matters since all of the crisis equippable weapons are assault or rapidfire. The only heavy weapon on a suit is the railgun on the broadside (which isn't a crisis suit and a Shas 'O can't be in a broadside anyway).

And before you ask. Drones take on the unit type of the unit they join so a markerlight drone with a unit of crisis suits would be counted as jump infantry...so relentless for that heavy 1 markerlight. Of course if you're putting a markerlight in with a unit of crisis suits, I'd have to ask you why in god's name you're doing something so stupid but hey, different strokes...

Oh absolutely, this is purely academic.

Rented Tritium wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:SPecific beats general. THe more specific codex rule overrides the general rule.

Only if they actually conflict. In this case they do not.

The codex says it has relentless-lite, the BRB says it has relentless. Thus it has both relentless lite and relentless. The fact that relentless lite does not cover heavy weapons doesn't say anything about what relentless grants.

If you read the codex rule, it actually is not saying that the suits can't fire heavy weapons, it is ONLY saying that relentless-lite doesn't let them fire heavy weapons. It says "THIS" does not extend to heavy weapons. In that statement "THIS" is referring ONLY to relentless-lite. It is saying that THIS specific rule you are reading at this moment does not apply to X. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that crisis suits categorically cannot move and fire heavy weapons, only that relentless-lite does not give them the ability to do so.

You have one rule that says you can do Y (this doesn't extend to X) and another rule that says you can do X and Y, there is no conflict.

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

If GW did indeed say it after the 5th edition codex came out, then that's what we've got to go with, but IMO that's a pretty awful ruling since the drones explicitly have relentless as part of their unit type.

I believe the line in the tau codex is intended effectively as reminder text for the older BRB that did not give relentless to jet infantry.

It's from the latest FAQ - 10th March this year.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1760102a_Tau_Empire_Version_1_1.pdf

Yeah, I'll concede the point ruleswise because of that, but I definitely still think it's a questionable ruling on their part.

Kinda glad it doesn't matter haha.

It's because drones take on the troop type of the unit they join. This means that in the case of the referenced section of the FAQ (which is talking about broadsides since they're the only ones that take ASS) the drone becomes infantry which means it needs some additional rule or benefit to fire a heavy weapon after moving.

In the case of crisis suits, the drones would become jump infantry which clearly benefit from relentless as was mentioned earlier.

agnosto wrote:It's because drones take on the troop type of the unit they join. This means that in the case of the referenced section of the FAQ (which is talking about broadsides since they're the only ones that take ASS) the drone becomes infantry which means it needs some additional rule or benefit to fire a heavy weapon after moving.

In the case of crisis suits, the drones would become jump infantry which clearly benefit from relentless as was mentioned earlier.

With broadsides, yeah, totally. Drones don't get anything special. But with crisis suits, which is specifically what the FAQ is talking about, why WOULDN'T they be able to shoot? The entire squad has relentless. EVEN if the crisis suit has a specific rule saying that it can only fire them if it has not moved, the whole squad having relentless should allow the DRONES to fire their heavy weapons, right? It seems like maybe the FAQ ruling was pulled forward from an older FAQ before 5th ed and they didn't reexamine it? So it's written on the premise that the sqaud does NOT have relentless? To me it appears to not have a basis at all.

Like, nobody is disputing that crisis suits HAVE relentless, just that it might not function for them, so the drone that has relentless just checks for "does rest of squad have relentless, do i have heavy weapon" and those are both yes, even if the rest of the squad doesn't get to BENEFIT from relentless.

Wait, so Broadsides can't move & shoot even if they have advanced stabilization?

Kitzz wrote:Wait, so Broadsides can't move & shoot even if they have advanced stabilization?

They can but any drones attached to them that have heavy weapons (i.e. markerlights) can't because drones do not have an option for that.

"and the unit must be stationary to fire them" is a specific limitation in addition (and-ed) to the normal allowances. The broadside description is more specific, so it should be used. Therefore AS does nothing to broadsides other than limit their movement.

Kitzz wrote:"and the unit must be stationary to fire them" is a specific limitation in addition (and-ed) to the normal allowances. The broadside description is more specific, so it should be used. Therefore AS does nothing to broadsides other than limit their movement.

THIS!

I realized this in the car and ran to post it! Good work sir

Yes, if indeed the crisis suit line about extending to heavy weapons overrides relentless, than an advanced stabilization system does nothing but slow you down.

Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

VoxDei wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

The codex does not say they have relentless lite, it states what they can and cannot fire; you're saying this as if relentless lite is an actual rule. Crisis Suit armour allows them to move and fire rapid fire weapons, but not Heavy Weapons, ergo they cannot move and fire Hheavy Weapons.

There is also this in the Tau FAQ:

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.

It specifies having stablization systems as a requirement for the drones to move and fire heavy weapons, due to the rules of Drones, if Crisis Suits could move and fire heavy weapons, the question asked here would not be an issue.

It also specifically states that Crisis Suits must be stationary to fire any heavy weapons they have, they do not simply state that "this rule does not extend to heavy weapons"; even if they had Relentless, this specific line in the Crisis Suits rules overrides it.

This is not about crisis suits. This is about broadsides. Drones with broadsides are infantry so they don't gain the relentless rule. How ever you are still correct about the codex specifically says Crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons. Drones attached to it how ever can.

Please point out where the FAQ states "Broadsides". It says "unit" and "Battlesuits" and therefore covers "Battlesuits".

Whilst the point everyone is arguing is moot anyway due to Crisis Suits not having Heavy Weapons, the FAQ posted does not specifically mentioned Broadsides as being the target of it; please point out how "unit" and "Battlesuits" automatically means "Broadsides".