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Islam isn't inherently evil. The 9/11 crap is making that to not be the case, and the majority of Americans buy it. Props to them for standing up for what they know to be true.

Also, could someone please tell my government to stop trying to keep fear alive? It's like they don't understand what the word "terror" means... or they understand it too well...

Kanluwen wrote:It's not so much that it's "no concern of theirs"--it's that even if you did speak up against Phelps, who's going to care?

The media outlets aren't interested in hearing about some schmuck out there who thinks Phelps is a jerkface.

I think this is the crux of it. Moderation simply doesn't sell anymore, media wise. Being the voice of reason is also the voice of no ratings.

mattyrm wrote:
Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

You have always equated left wing with liberal or soft, you are incorrect.

mattyrm wrote: Its called freedom of speech, I agree with their right to air their views.

The only caveat being that I should be allowed to go out with a placard saying "Muhammed was an illiterate goat fething nonce"

If I am granted the same freedom of speech as they are, then I'm all for it. But the double standards we have does annoy me somewhat, Muslims can get away with being far more aggressive verbally than I can.

Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

you could say that, but it would be a lie.

if i recall, Jesus said 'turn the other cheek'

Too bad it does not work with extremists.

Toastedandy wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Abdul Sallam, 41, who was waving a sign that read "Keep The Silence", travelled down to London from his home in Glasgow to show the strength of his feelings.
He said: "I'm a Muslim. What they're doing is bringing shame on all Muslims. This is not part of the teachings of Islam.
"Islam teaches you that when you see anything bad or evil, you should speak out against it.
"If the moderate Muslims all came out and spoke out, that would defeat them.

So, why haven't they? That massive majority of 'moderate' muslims have been woefully quiet.

Most importantly, where is the overwhelming condemnation of this sort of hateful practice by the muslim community's religious leaders? Where were the group of Imams and Mullahs standing opposite these arseholes with 'you are wrong' and 'you do not speak for the rest of us' on their placards? There are 3 million muslims in the UK, why aren't these hate pedallers being drowned out by a sea of rejecting voices?

The majority remaining silent leads to the belief that whether or not they oppose the actions of these groups, they hold them dearer than the outsider or infidel.

"I against my brother, my brothers and me against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

There are 230 million Christians in the USA, but I don't see them all speaking up against Fred Phelps. For the vast majority it's simply no concern of theirs.

For all his sins, Fred Phelps aint piloting planes into buildings, either.

And neither are the majority of Muslims.

I know, I'm just saying that Phelps, while he should burn in a deep circle of hell, isn't anywhere near as bad as the terrorists.

Slarg232 wrote:I know, I'm just saying that Phelps, while he should burn in a deep circle of hell, isn't anywhere near as bad as the terrorists.

He might not be atm but there are Christian extremists on the periphery and just waiting. Have we forgotten Oslo so soon?

I must be cut off from the US-Of-A. being in a third world country is somewhat isolating.


Who is Fred Phelps?

Westboro Baptist Church leader.

All round muppet, and feth head.

What did he DO though?



(somehow, I knew it was religion.)

ineptus astartes wrote:What did he DO though?



(somehow, I knew it was religion.)

He did a google search.

He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared.

Toastedandy wrote:He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared.

Not really.

He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslim extremists started talking about how crazy they were going to retaliate against the West if he was allowed to do it, and there was finally a way to finally stalemate the dickbag in one of his PR stunts(which he and his family aka the WBC perform in the hopes of getting someone to rage out so the WBC can sue them) by citing that he was "at risk of creating an international incident".

Kanluwen wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared.

Not really.

He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslim extremists started talking about how crazy they were going to retaliate against the West if he was allowed to do it, and there was finally a way to finally stalemate the dickbag in one of his PR stunts(which he and his family aka the WBC perform in the hopes of getting someone to rage out so the WBC can sue them) by citing that he was "at risk of creating an international incident".

How is it "Not really"? The Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared and stopped him before any retaliation.

He thinks Mr. Obama is the antichrist? thats just dumb.

wikipedia wrote:Phelps has stated that the 9/11 attacks were God's punishment on the United States. In a September 14, 2001 sermon Phelps said "God hates America, and those calamities last Tuesday are none other than the wrath of God, smiting (the derogatory word for gays) America.You need to see in those flames a little preview of the flames of Hell that are going to soon engulf you, my friend. Burn your soul forever!"

Maybe he should have his balls crushed under a boing 757.

ineptus astartes wrote:What did he DO though?



(somehow, I knew it was religion.)

He goes to places he deems Satanic, including the funerals of dead gays and dead soldiers, with a bunch of followers, holding up signs saying things like "God hates fags", "thank God for dead US soldiers", "God hates Jews" etc. Not exactly a mass murderer, but still an all round terrible person..

I saw. he's a nutcase.

put his ass in a nepali prison and watch him starve.

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared.

Not really.

He tried to burn the Qur'an, the Muslim extremists started talking about how crazy they were going to retaliate against the West if he was allowed to do it, and there was finally a way to finally stalemate the dickbag in one of his PR stunts(which he and his family aka the WBC perform in the hopes of getting someone to rage out so the WBC can sue them) by citing that he was "at risk of creating an international incident".

How is it "Not really"? The Muslims got mad, the Americans got scared and stopped him before any retaliation.

You really think it was because every single American was scared?

You have no idea how ridiculous that is.

The major reason to stop it has nothing to do with fear of reprisal.
It has everything to do with tolerance.

What the hell kind of message does allowing him to burn the Islamic holy book send, when we "tuttut" if someone even jokes about burning a Bible?
America has a standard. Letting donkey-caves do whatever they want isn't it, not when it comes to religious tolerance.

Kanluwen wrote:
You really think it was because every single American was scared?

You have no idea how ridiculous that is.

The major reason to stop it has nothing to do with fear of reprisal.

Nothing at all to do with fear of reprisal? Nothing at all? really?

General David Petraeus (U.S. commander of the war in Afghanistan), the U.S. Attorney General, and even the President have all been urging the church's pastor to call off the event

the argument has been that such an event will inflame public opinion, incite violence, and endanger U.S. forces.

He was trying to motive further violence through the burning, I thought that was obvious.


I don't think that christians as awhole would be as wrathful if some joe burnt a bible.

On a side note, not ignoring the fact Fred Phelps is a muppet, wasn't it the Miami fella who tried to burn the Koran more reccently.

Google search later - aye, Terry Jones, and according to a news report I just read, he did burn one as well. Only 30 folks showed up though.

He's a muppet as well.

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You really think it was because every single American was scared?

You have no idea how ridiculous that is.

The major reason to stop it has nothing to do with fear of reprisal.

Nothing at all to do with fear of reprisal? Nothing at all? really?

Blah blah blah.

I can tell you not to do something because if you do it, Dave across the street would bomb Joe in the next neighborhood over.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily true. I can be trying to scare you into doing something.

General David Petraeus (U.S. commander of the war in Afghanistan), the U.S. Attorney General, and even the President have all been urging the church's pastor to call off the event

the argument has been that such an event will inflame public opinion, incite violence, and endanger U.S. forces.

He was trying to motive further violence through the burning, I thought that was obvious.

And in case you didn't notice, it actually wasn't talking about the US citizenry.

It was United States forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. They tried to appeal to his sense of decency and guilt him into not doing it(that doesn't work when you're a morally stunted douchebag) by saying that if he does X, then Y will happen to people who are putting their lives on the line so he can be a douchebag.

I don't think that christians as awhole would be as wrathful if some joe burnt a bible.

And neither would Muslims if he burned a Qur'an.

However, extremist Christian groups like Aryan Nation, Christian Identity Movement, Covenant(Sword and Arm of the Lord), and the Phineas Priesthood might take exception to his shenanigans.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

You have always equated left wing with liberal or soft, you are incorrect.

I disagree, who is more likely to be pro capital punishment, and pro long jail terms?

A bigoted old conservative bloke who says things like "bring back the birch!" or some screaming socialist who thinks they should send burglars on "self improvement courses" with social workers?

But anyway, that's OT, I was only yanking your chain.

I've said my bit, I think we should allow free speech for everyone or nobody.

And if these scum can celebrate cold blooded murder then I should be allowed to print and sell Muhammed cartoons and put placards up outside their houses informing people that they treat women like rats and set up a pig farm in a mosque car park.

If this is the worst thing that happens today I say let them have their vocal circlejerk.

Kanluwen wrote:
Blah blah blah.

This a summery of your post?

I can tell you not to do something because if you do it, Dave across the street would bomb Joe in the next neighborhood over.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily true. I can be trying to scare you into doing something.

Ummm....okay. Well, seeing as the president, attorney general etc made him stop, than they did get scared, according to your statement.

And in case you didn't notice, it actually wasn't talking about the US citizenry.

Snide comments don't help your argument.

I never referred to it effecting the citizens, so I don't know why you mentioned this. Retaliation against US force's would effect the citizenry, it would effect family, friends, tax payers, etc

mattyrm wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

You have always equated left wing with liberal or soft, you are incorrect.

I disagree, who is more likely to be pro capital punishment, and pro long jail terms?

A bigoted old conservative bloke who says things like "bring back the birch!" or some screaming socialist who thinks they should send burglars on "self improvement courses" with social workers?

The problem seems that you are basing your argument on stereotypes and wedge issues, not on the reality of the diversity of human thought, experience, and motivation.

Aye, I'm as liberal as they come for outlook on life in general, but as soon as someone breaks the law, I have zero sympathies, and become very conservative.

I'm for a return of the death penalty immediatly for cop and child killers for example.

Ahtman wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

You have always equated left wing with liberal or soft, you are incorrect.

I disagree, who is more likely to be pro capital punishment, and pro long jail terms?

A bigoted old conservative bloke who says things like "bring back the birch!" or some screaming socialist who thinks they should send burglars on "self improvement courses" with social workers?

The problem seems that you are basing your argument on stereotypes and wedge issues, not on the reality of the diversity of human thought, experience, and motivation.

But I like stereotypes!

All joking aside, they exist because they are largely true, and that's why I vote Tory.

Its very simple - Labour- give more money to doley's, immigrants, poor people.
Conservative - somewhat racist, give less money to doley's immigrants and poor people.

Is anything about that broadbrush incorrect?

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blah blah blah.

This a summery of your post?

Personal attacks(bad ones at that) don't help your argument.

I can tell you not to do something because if you do it, Dave across the street would bomb Joe in the next neighborhood over.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily true. I can be trying to scare you into doing something.

Ummm....okay. Well, seeing as the president, attorney general etc made him stop, than they did get scared, according to your argument.

...
I'm sorry, but you failed to grasp the concept. I'll explain it for you using a hypothetical situation.

If I, as head of the homeowner's association for the neighborhood you lived in, told you that if you planted Bermuda grass(after having gotten permission from a vote within the homeowner's board) instead of the grass that everyone else planted that Dave would blow up Joe's(who lives in the next neighborhood over) home--I'm not "getting scared" of you planting Bermuda grass.

I'm using fear(Dave will kill Joe!) to try to appeal to your sense of decency and trying to guilt you into doing what I want but can't legally stop you from doing.

And in case you didn't notice, it actually wasn't talking about the US citizenry.

Snide comments don't help your argument.

Retaliation against US force's would effect the citizenry, it would effect family, friends, tax payers, etc

And the people directly affected would be a relatively small piece of the overall population.
Saying that taxpayers would be affected is silly.

Is it a sad fact that people wouldn't care that much that soldiers would die and their families and friends be affected?

Sure. But it's facts. Many people don't really care what happens beyond how it impacts them.

mattyrm wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Hey-ho. If it gets lefty types like you seeing things my way, then I'm all for Muslims doing gak like this.

You have always equated left wing with liberal or soft, you are incorrect.

I disagree, who is more likely to be pro capital punishment, and pro long jail terms?

A bigoted old conservative bloke who says things like "bring back the birch!" or some screaming socialist who thinks they should send burglars on "self improvement courses" with social workers?

The problem seems that you are basing your argument on stereotypes and wedge issues, not on the reality of the diversity of human thought, experience, and motivation.

But I like stereotypes!

All joking aside, they exist because they are largely true, and that's why I vote Tory.

Its very simple - Labour- give more money to doley's, immigrants, poor people.
Conservative - somewhat racist, give less money to doley's immigrants and poor people.

Is anything about that broadbrush incorrect?

Well, just that broadbrushing doesn't work. and until we figure that out, people won't start getting along better any sooner.

Kanluwen wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blah blah blah.

This a summery of your post?

Personal attacks(bad ones at that) don't help your argument.

That was no more a personal attack than you saying Blah blah blah to my comment.

I'm sorry, but you failed to grasp the concept. I'll explain it for you using a hypothetical situation.

If I, as head of the homeowner's association for the neighborhood you lived in, told you that if you planted Bermuda grass(after having gotten permission from a vote within the homeowner's board) instead of the grass that everyone else planted that Dave would blow up Joe's(who lives in the next neighborhood over) home--I'm not "getting scared" of you planting Bermuda grass.

I know your not getting scared of the bermuda grass being planted (Qur'an being burnt), but instead being scared for poor Joe being blown up (Reprisals) I think your the one who is failing to grasp the concept, your own concept at that.

Fear is human nature, if you are convinced that no Americans were scared of reprisals from extremists, than your wrong.

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blah blah blah.

This a summery of your post?

Personal attacks(bad ones at that) don't help your argument.

That was no more a personal attack than you saying Blah blah blah to my comment.

The "blah blah blah" was more in reference to the fact that it was politickspeak.

@Example: I know your not getting scared of the bermuda grass being planted (Qur'an being burnt), but instead being scared for poor Joe being blown up (Reprisals) I think your the one who is failing to grasp the concept.

...

I think you need to read better.

I made up the fact that Dave will bomb Joe. I made it up, to use as a justification for preventing you doing what I cannot legally prevent you from doing.

Joe is not in any more danger than he normally is in his everyday life.