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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Ouze wrote:The whole Israel thing is funny, because it's kind of like a little microcosm of 40k. There is never-ending war, no one is the good guys, and the end is always nigh, forever, and it's always on the cusp of either getting better or getting worse without ever actually doing so. Grimdarkest.

On the whole, I think it's a nonstop cycle of suck that my nation would do best to avoid. I feel that AIPAC exerts an undue influence over our foreign policy.



Not just on foreign policy... we can't even elect a god damned President unless the candidate has first affirmed a pro Israeli stance. The American public at large is so misinformed when it comes to the subject that the general population thinks that Israel is a perpetual victim due to some intrinsic never-ending hatred on the part of its neighbors, and not because of its own actions, and that it is our inherited responsibility as Americans to protect them from because we liberated Jews from the concentration camps... (some might argue that it was because we didn't do enough to protect Jews before the war even started). i in part blame the educational system for that one....

Isreal and Palastine are just as bad as each other. Israel gets the most criticism becasuse it's citizens live in relative luxury and they have the 'Big Boys' on their side to start with. That said, most Israelis i've met are anti-palestine to the point of racist obsession.... This does not do them any favours.


Which begs the question, is it more justifiable for one group than the other? Personally, I think that the Palestinians are in the right (morally speaking, but not ethically) to behave as they do, they are pretty much at the mercy of the Israeli's, and the Israeli's are a rather cruel master.


Last year I went to Israel (Tel Aviv) on holiday to meet a good mate of mine (an Israeli). Picture this - basically a Mediterranean or South European town, with lots of cute little coffee shops, shopping malls, great beaches with nice looking women walking about. But, the country is tiny, is sat in a valley, and is surrounded by countries who have gone on record to say they want Israel destroyed. So its kind of like if you picked up Barcelona and whacked it in between Jordan, Iran and Lebanon. It could almost pass for such if you didn't have groups of 18 year old girls walking around with machine guns (doing their military service but accessorising at the same time) and searches for bombs before walking into the air-conditioned shopping malls. It's fething bizarre. Everyone I spoke to, younger people or those my age, are absolutely convinced about the countries right to defend itself, which is fair enough if you look at it from their situation.


In modern times (say last 10-20 years), most of that hate (in the case of Israel's immediate neighbors) is perception rather than reality, and for the most part it is perpetuated by Israel's own actions towards its neighbors and the displaced nationals living within it, rather than due to religious differences, etc.


So, don't get me wrong, I think the militants attacking Israel are in the wrong. But, it becomes impossible to forget that they have Israel next to them when there constant expansions into what they think is their own territory. It's ridiculous looking at the different areas in Israel, you have modern and western looking towns for the israelis, then look next to it and theres a gakky looking group of hovels owned by arabs, with dirty kids with rag clothing hanging around it. So no doubt some of the aggression focused on Israel comes from resentment at the wealth of the country. I completely sympathise with with the people living in Israel, but they really need to get some kind of balanced government rather than having gun heads in charge like they have now - any aggression which happens now is making extra barriers to the other countries that ultimately they have to be neighbours with, and I worry it will ultimately end in tears for Israel as they are really such a small country despite their military power.


What you seemed to have missed is that those impoverished Palestinians (are they Arabs? Thought they were Levantines) are impoverished in large part because of the circumstances thrust upon them by the Israeli gov't.

biccat wrote:

I think that the Israel-Palestine conflict has a lot of problems, and to lay them all at the feet of the Israelis is inappropriate and harmful to the issue. The terrorists running Palestine aren't doing the people living there any favors.


While I don't agree with what they do, they are actually doing more good than harm for the Palestinian cause. If Hamas didn't exist, the Palestinians would probably be in the same position they are in now (probably worse, they wouldn't even have West Bank/Gaza), the only difference being that nobody in the outside world would be paying any attention to the plight of the Palestinian people at all, simply because they would be receiving no media coverage whatsoever. 'Any news is good news'.

CoALabaer wrote:
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Frazzled wrote:When have people ever gotten along, anywhere?


I get along with myself and am a person, therefore people get along!

   
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The Great State of Texas

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:When have people ever gotten along, anywhere?


I get along with myself and am a person, therefore people get along!


Sorry all the voices in your head do not constitute "people." At least thats what the doctors told me.

Which begs the question, is it more justifiable for one group than the other? Personally, I think that the Palestinians are in the right (morally speaking, but not ethically) to behave as they do, they are pretty much at the mercy of the Israeli's, and the Israeli's are a rather cruel master.


Mmm yes, rocketing attacks and cutting children's throats, I bet you do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/13 20:21:58


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chaos0xomega wrote:
biccat wrote:

I think that the Israel-Palestine conflict has a lot of problems, and to lay them all at the feet of the Israelis is inappropriate and harmful to the issue. The terrorists running Palestine aren't doing the people living there any favors.


While I don't agree with what they do, they are actually doing more good than harm for the Palestinian cause. If Hamas didn't exist, the Palestinians would probably be in the same position they are in now (probably worse, they wouldn't even have West Bank/Gaza), the only difference being that nobody in the outside world would be paying any attention to the plight of the Palestinian people at all, simply because they would be receiving no media coverage whatsoever. 'Any news is good news'.


I think the line you're looking for is "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

However, I disagree that Hamas/Fatah/PLO have done any good for Palestine. Lets face it, people aren't going to take you seriously when one of your goals is:
"Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
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biccat wrote:"Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."


I don't know... If we're really nice, we might be able to get them to eradicate all the Zionist conspiracy theorists too!

   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





One thing that keeps the Israelis in America's forethought is our primary religion and one that most of the old legalities are founded on, which is Christianity. Now, before I get to far into this, this is a real concern to some people, some who may very well be on the forms so do not mock, or make-fun of the idea presented here. It's a belief, an dramatic one yes, but one that is held by some and is therefor important.
Israel has, obviously, extremely close ties to the Christian faith as Christianity is sort of seen to arise out of it and almost expand upon it (It here being Judaism, the 'forefather' of Christianity). In the New Testament, which is the latter half of the Bible to those who do not know, it begins to describe the end of the world in the final book called Revelation. It describes Israel as a nation situated in the middle of its enemies and beset on all sides by its foes. What's important about this though is the following.

1: That it came to exist in the first place, something many would have doubted for a very long time.
2: That the first generation is stated to 'not pass away' (or something to that effect depending on translation) which many scholars have taken to mean that the first generation of Israelis will not die out entirely and finally,
3: That Israel will stand alone.

It is that final point which, in my belief, keeps the US so rooted in Israel. Should we allow them to stand alone then the previous conditions are all met and, this is going to sound weird, it could bring about the end of the world. The USA need only back Israel for a decade or two more before, logically, the first generation of Israelis have finally reached the age where they should have died of old age but until then, again this is my opinion, the US stands by its side to stop the world from ending. Once the first gen. goes then the conditions are no longer met and things are theoretically safe, have fun thinking about this one '>..>

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Frazzled wrote:

Which begs the question, is it more justifiable for one group than the other? Personally, I think that the Palestinians are in the right (morally speaking, but not ethically) to behave as they do, they are pretty much at the mercy of the Israeli's, and the Israeli's are a rather cruel master.


Mmm yes, rocketing attacks and cutting children's throats, I bet you do.



Again, I see it as morally justifiable (do unto others as they do unto you), but not ethically (killing and fighting should be a last resort only). Perhaps I have the two concepts reversed in my head... anyway, thats no worse than the Israeli army driving a Merkava through a families living room window and crushing their children under tread, or having an Israeli helicopter gunship launch ordnance into a series of dwellings...

Biccat, you are right, that is a better phrase to use, though the one I used isn't technically incorrect I suppose.

As for whether or not those organizations have done good for Palestine, while they aren't representing the Palestinian people particularly well, they have at least put the issue on the radar. Think about it, if those crazies weren't doing what they were doing and calling attention to themselves, would we be discussing the issue of Palestine at all right now? in my opinion, no we wouldn't. The entire issue would be a fringe affair that the media would largely overlook and would only really be a topic of discussion amongst grassroots organizations and small circles of political insiders. Lets face it, as a race, humanity really isn't all that concerned about whats going on around them if it doesn't affect them directly, unless someone is fighting and dying in the process.

CoALabaer wrote:
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The Great State of Texas

So its morally justified to kill children. What a sterling character you are.

And people wonder why the Israelis have nukes.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Yes, everyone knows that children are immune from nuclear weapons, Frazzled. In fact, no Israeli ordnance is effective on children.


These are facts.



 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
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Albatross wrote:Yes, everyone knows that children are immune from nuclear weapons, Frazzled. In fact, no Israeli ordnance is effective on children.


These are facts.



The Israelis haven't nuked anyone. The same can't be said for Palestinian supporters cutting kids' throats.
   
Made in gb
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Manchester UK

The Israelis have killed more children than the Palestinians. Far more.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Generally it seems when Israelis kill civilians, it is through carelessness or because legitimate targets (IE, Palestinian militants) are hiding among civilian targets. I see to recall reading about Palestinian militants using a hospital as a location to launch rockets and mortars.

When Palestinians kill civilians, it's almost always in an attack that deliberately targets civilians.

Both are bad. I know which one I think is worse.
   
Made in us
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The Great State of New Jersey

Frazzled wrote:So its morally justified to kill children.


Its morally (ethically? I don't even know which is which anymore) justifiable to kill given the current situation, I'm not commenting on this act in particular because I don't know the specifics. Would you hold it against US special operators if they slit a child's throat to prevent the mission being compromised? Things like that have happened before and both decisions have serious consequences, on the one hand you're ending the life of an innocent child, on the other hand if you don't do it (provided you have exhausted all other options first), you can risk your own life, the lives of the other men in your unit, your mission, and the lives of a lot of other people that may be dependent on the outcome of your mission. It was a decision like this that caused Operation Red Wings to fail, and the lives of 19 Americans to be lost. Marcus Luttrell (the only survivor) has indicated that he wishes that they had taken the opposite course of action. I don't pretend that the incident you refer to was as dramatic or 'romantic' (for lack of a better term) as Red Wings, but I don't know what happened (in regards to the children being killed).

Troy wrote:
Albatross wrote:Yes, everyone knows that children are immune from nuclear weapons, Frazzled. In fact, no Israeli ordnance is effective on children.


These are facts.



The Israelis haven't nuked anyone. The same can't be said for Palestinian supporters cutting kids' throats.


Great, so its only bad if the Israeli's nuke someone (but think of the fish off the coast of South Africa (assuming the rumors are true)), but its totally cool for Israeli soldiers (an instrument of the state, and not some random Palestinian) to fire tank rounds, missiles, bombs, mortars, artillery, and 5.56 at Palestinian civilians? Gotcha...

CoALabaer wrote:
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Ethics = Morals. There is no distinction. Ethics is the study of moral philosophy. Something cannot be morally justifiable yet ethically unjustifiable.

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Kamloops, B.C.

The way I see it, Israel started out a refugee state that spent the mid 20th-century fighting for its existance against Islamic states, after many of its citizens already suffered in Europe under the Nazis in the 40's. 63 years later, however, it has become the very monster from which many of its people originally fled. They've gone from reactive strikes against visible and obvious outside threats to bombing anything that so much as looks at them the wrong way.

I say let them stand alone. Who knows? Maybe it'll actually make them stop thinking they can do whatever the hell they want without consequence. There's never any excuse good enough to justify killing civilians, and Israel needs to learn that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 22:29:10


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Nothing is ever as simple as one side being right and the other wrong. Both Israel and the various political entities seeking to establish a Palestinian state/eradicate the Jewish one currently occupying it have committed grievous acts against eachother. Is either side justified? Depends on who's side your on. The prosecution of the Palestinians in Israel is sad, yes. The terror tactics employed by a number of anti-Israeli groups are equally deplorable.

From a bigger picture point of view, I find it interesting that both Hamas and Hezbollah (arguably the two largest anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian militant and political organizations) are funded in large or significant part by Iran. Given Iran's often irrational rhetoric towards the existence of Israel (the classic line 'Israel should be wiped off the map' [paraphrased] springs to mind), it presents a unique situation in which Iran is conducting a near proxy war with Israel using these militant and political organizations to weaken/destroy Israel from within.

This is no secret to Israel and the world at large, which puts significant stress on the region as a whole, seeing as Israel has for the most part not signed any international treaty of significance (key here being the NPT). The rest of the region being nuclear free, or peacefully using it for power generating purposes in the Gulf states (heavily supervised by the IAEA), every nation is watching intently as Iran's nuclear ambitions remain unclear and as of yet, unsuccessful. It is not completely absurd to believe that should Iran successfully complete a small number of small warheads that a limited nuclear engagement occur between the two states should tensions with Hamas and Hezbollah rise.

Israel has stated repeatedly that it will take every step to keep the Middle-East nuclear free (bar itself, but even that's supposed to be super secret...). Be that through the use of a pre-emptive air strike, an Israeli favorite, or a limited nuclear strike, one can only speculate. Either way, the Middle-East is one hell of a turbulent political landscape, and we can only watch as the events unfold.

/Rant.

I have a thing for nuclear strategy.

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RatBot wrote:Generally it seems when Israelis kill civilians, it is through carelessness or because legitimate targets (IE, Palestinian militants) are hiding among civilian targets. I see to recall reading about Palestinian militants using a hospital as a location to launch rockets and mortars.

When Palestinians kill civilians, it's almost always in an attack that deliberately targets civilians.

Both are bad. I know which one I think is worse.

Right so it's OK to kill a gakload of children, as long as you don't mean to? Surely the best option is to not kill children at all? I put it to you that if you kill ten times as many children as your opponent, then really doesn't make much difference whether you meant to do it or not. They're still dead, and in their hundreds.

I would also put it to you that the Israelis launch missiles into densely populated areas fully expecting, but not caring, that they will cause massive civilian casualties. Let's not sit here pretending that the IDF is known for it's surgical precision. They don't give a gak. If I was Palestinian I would use any and all methods available to strike back at Israel, because the odds would be massively stacked against me in a conventional conflict. It's not a 'fair' fight, and I would argue that it was never supposed to be, indicated by the huge amount of aid the Israelis receive.

If your home and family where under threat would you fight fair? The British during WWII weren't preparing for a fair fight when our country was under threat of invasion. American revolutionaries tortured and killed loyalists, used snipers/irregulars, disfigured captives etc.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
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Where did I say it was OK?


   
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Manchester UK

Blacksails wrote:...the classic line 'Israel should be wiped off the map' [paraphrased] springs to mind...

Classically misquoted, you mean. Ahmedinejad never said that. It was an English mistranslation of something he quoted, which was something along the lines of 'the regime in Jerusalem must vanish from the page of history', and was a quotation from Khomeini, if memory serves.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Albatross wrote:
Blacksails wrote:...the classic line 'Israel should be wiped off the map' [paraphrased] springs to mind...

Classically misquoted, you mean. Ahmedinejad never said that. It was an English mistranslation of something he quoted, which was something along the lines of 'the regime in Jerusalem must vanish from the page of history', and was a quotation from Khomeini, if memory serves.


Ah, touche. The intention, nevertheless, remains. Thanks for that.

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RatBot wrote:Where did I say it was OK?


You implied that there was a preferable option, to which my answer would be: 'would you prefer it if I killed two of your children by accident, or one of your children on purpose?'

The first option is the Israeli one. Still sound preferable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blacksails wrote:
Albatross wrote:
Blacksails wrote:...the classic line 'Israel should be wiped off the map' [paraphrased] springs to mind...

Classically misquoted, you mean. Ahmedinejad never said that. It was an English mistranslation of something he quoted, which was something along the lines of 'the regime in Jerusalem must vanish from the page of history', and was a quotation from Khomeini, if memory serves.


Ah, touche. The intention, nevertheless, remains. Thanks for that.

You're very welcome. However, unless you are able to read Mahmoud Ahmedinejad's mind, I doubt you know his intent. There's an important and profound difference between wiping a country off the map, and wanting a regime to vanish from the page of history (i.e. cease henceforth). It's possible to hate the regime in Washington and want it to disappear without wanting the USA to be wiped off the map. Hell, many American Dakkanauts want exactly that!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/13 22:57:30


 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






From a moral stand point, deliberately killing one person is, IMO worse than accidentally killing two. Neither is good. Nobody is the good guy here.

It's preferable, IMO, in the same way that cancer is preferable to ebola.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 23:02:33


 
   
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If I was near-starving, being kicked off my land by settlers, and my kids had been killed by Israeli airstrikes, I wouldn't give a gak about morals. I'd pick up an AK47.


Could you blame me?

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Nope.

And when you gun down a bus full of Israeli civilians, can you blame their families for getting pissed and wanting you dead?
   
Made in gb
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Manchester UK

Me? Sure, no problem. My whole street? No.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in ca
Calculating Commissar






Kamloops, B.C.

Blacksails wrote:Either way, the Middle-East is one hell of a turbulent political landscape, and we can only watch as the events unfold.


Pretty much my stance. I'm not saying Israel should be wiped out, but they need to stop being allowed to hide behind America and NATO.

Nor am I saying that Palestinian militia aren't responsible for a fair share of the hellish state of affairs in that corner of the world. Yes, both sides have done horrible things, but the difference is that one of them is being supported by the major players of the Western world, who are also the loudest voices in human rights protection. Surely the irony there is painfully obvious.

Not to mention their "both your eyes for one of ours" policy isn't doing them any favours. A lot of the hate against them comes from their ridiculously heavy-handed policy that's eerily reminiscent of the Nazi party's own brutal executions of prisoners and civilians for even the slightest public disturbance. You have to admit that a good deal of the anti-Israel sentiment in the Middle East is likely due to their preferance towards shotgun diplomacy and their unjustified occupation of the strip.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 23:24:51


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metallifan wrote:
Blacksails wrote:Either way, the Middle-East is one hell of a turbulent political landscape, and we can only watch as the events unfold.


Pretty much my stance. I'm not saying Israel should be wiped out, but they need to stop being allowed to hide behind America and NATO.

Nor am I saying that Palestinian militia aren't responsible for a fair share of the hellish state of affairs in that corner of the world. Yes, both sides have done horrible things, but the difference is that one of them is being supported by the major players of the Western world, who are also the loudest voices in human rights protection. Surely the irony there is painfully obvious.

Not to mention their "both your eyes for one of ours" policy isn't doing them any favours. A lot of the hate against them comes from their ridiculously heavy-handed policy that's eerily reminiscent of the Nazi party's own brutal executions of prisoners and civilians for even the slightest public disturbance. You have to admit that a good deal of the anti-Israel sentiment in the Middle East is likely due to their preferance towards shotgun diplomacy and their unjustified occupation of the strip.


I genuinely have no emotions or judgements on either party in the matter. Its weird. I've been desensitized from writing about the conflict in an academic manner. Much of the resentment is also due in part to the presence of Israel's nuclear arsenal. But yes, its 'shotgun' diplomacy as you put it, certainly doesn't help. I won't touch the part about unjustly occupying any territory, as that's where the problem lies.

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If they had an actual reason for being there, aside from trying to play the victim card, I'd be with you. But they occupied it in 67 and have tried to maintain that they have a right to that territory ever since, even after pulling out previously. Meanwhile they've practically been using the Palestinians and Egyptians in the city and area for live fire drills. Putting two and two together, It's my opinion that Palestine's agression and anti-Israel policies are entirely warranted. Their methods are often objectionable (Killing Israeli civilians because the IDF treats Palestinian innocents like its open season doesn't make it right), but their anger is entirely fair, I think.

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metallifan wrote:If they had an actual reason for being there, aside from trying to play the victim card, I'd be with you. But they occupied it in 67 and have tried to maintain that they have a right to that territory ever since, even after pulling out previously. Meanwhile they've practically been using the Palestinians and Egyptians in the city and area for live fire drills. Putting two and two together, It's my opinion that Palestine's agression and anti-Israel policies are entirely warranted. Their methods are often objectionable (Killing Israeli civilians because the IDF treats Palestinian innocents like its open season doesn't make it right), but their anger is entirely fair, I think.


Your opinions are certainly justified, but I will politely step out of any discussion involving who is wrong and who is right.

But if you really want to know what I think...I think both sides are right...and at the same time they're both wrong. The anger on both sides is fair and understandable. That's what I think, nothing more, nothing less.

*Edit* I would, however, gladly discuss Israeli/Palestinian politics with anyone over a pint any time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/14 00:06:07


Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Calculating Commissar






Kamloops, B.C.

Blacksails wrote:But if you really want to know what I think...I think both sides are right...and at the same time they're both wrong. The anger on both sides is fair and understandable. That's what I think, nothing more, nothing less.


That's more or less what I'm feeling. If Israel no longer has US backing then they'll stop kicking the piss out of Palestine and thinking themselves entitled to the strip. And if that happens, then I'd bet you that Hamas would stop ambushing IDF units and be willing to open up dialogues. And then we might actually see some damn peace there for the first time since Bill Clinton's days.

And if you're ever in Kamloops then I'll take you up on that Pint

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/09/14 00:23:37


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