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Yeah, FW has always let themselves down on the P&P front IMHO even more so that the rest of GW (they were rather ate to the game with free delivery).

The across the board 10% (or is it 12%?) for P&P is horrendously expensive in this day and age.

I has not put me off (yet) but it is always in the back of my mind, to the point where there are some nice (and indeed useful) models that I haven't purchased. e.g. Griffon mortar carries, I made my own in the end.

dsteingass wrote:Everything GW produces now is miles above what they used to produce quality-wise IMO. New technology has allowed better detailed kits that cost far less to produce than the old manual methods.

If the kits cost far less to produce why hasn't the price dropped?

Economics 101 my friend, the unseen hand, supply and demand. They have done what Pepsi and Coke have done, got us all to choose brand loyalty! Albeit using methods that many people complain about, but it still works despite all that. We want to buy their stuff. We keep buying their stuff and they still make profit. And like a good fan-based company they turn that profit into more and more available GW kits and miniatures. Anyone remember what was available for their favorite army ten years ago? Now look at the sheer variety we have available to us at a click.

I just logged in and every thing is showing at £0.00 .... im sure that if I ordered that the correct price would occur...


but tempting... very tempting..

Someone mentioned it's cheeper to buy from forgeworld. Just to second that, I've been considering getting a new waveserpent or two, including postage, I think I worked out to me AU$20 cheaper to buy for FW then GW.

Pyro-Druid wrote:Someone mentioned it's cheeper to buy from forgeworld. Just to second that, I've been considering getting a new waveserpent or two, including postage, I think I worked out to me AU$20 cheaper to buy for FW then GW.

It's cheaper for Australians. We're lucky right now because our dollar is so strong.

dsteingass wrote:I was talking to a guy from Specialist Games at Games Day Chicago about metal/plastic/resin casting and such, and he spoke of the Price increases and how they are tied to the prices of commodities. One of the main reasons for GW switching over to all plastic/finecast is because metal miniatures have a high tin content, and tin is a commodity. Resin prices are relatively static and the oil used to produce styrene is less significant cost-wise. Resin casting allows them to bypass that all together and we get the benefit by allowing more plastic and resin products to be available to us for a longer timeframe.

So they are moving off of Tin/metals because of the instability of the prices, and they are replacing that with the more stable pricing of oil?!? As plastic is a oil by product is the price related to the global market place price of crude oil like gasoliene or is it a fixed price that stays the same reguardless of external oil prices? If it's a fixed price they might have a hard time justifying with a straight face the next "annual GW PLC premium price matching endevour ©,tm"

What do you mean decreased quality? Everything GW produces now is miles above what they used to produce quality-wise IMO. New technology has allowed better detailed kits that cost far less to produce than the old manual methods. multi-part kits are designed with 3D software that digitally cuts the molds so that we can have more kits available to us for longer periods of time.

and as always GW is a day late and a dollar short in the technology dept. still, remember when they told us slide core technology was the new cutting edge thing in reguards to the Bandeblade kit? Other manufactors have been using it for years on a greater scale and with better results. Check out any model kit by dragon or hasagawa. CAD cut models with brass etchings included for grills, rigging points, hatch dogs etc. I think they are still waiting for that 'new fangled internetthingy fad to pass'.....

If you are talking about the sculptors themselves, that is really an artistic judgment of quality rather than technical product quality.

That I agree with you 100%. Some of GW sculpters are freaking amazing. just about everything Jes Goodwyn has touched is aces. I love the sisters of battle line. Hell I used to own about 2000-3000 points of them. Awsome looking army and models. Most of the eldar line is stunning. Juan Dieaz is amazing also. His old school daemonettes and the mounted versions where some of my favoret models in the SoC releases. Sebation Prebert (sp??) is also rather talented, his Nurgle Daemon price is one sweet pile of awsome. Mark Bedford and all of the FW crew are talented beyond belief and I am glad they get to work in a medium ( resin) that can show off there strengths.

edit, how could I forget the Perry Twins. I shall scourge myself in the pain-glove for this transgression.

Has GW been good on the Customer Service end with these complaints? Like FW is, readily replacing malformed or missing pieces?

That is one thing I give GW total props for is there customer service. It's always been top notch. I haven't had to contact them in 18 months, so I might be a little out of touch. If it's like it used to be then top notch.

dsteingass wrote:Economics 101 my friend, the unseen hand, supply and demand. They have done what Pepsi and Coke have done, got us all to choose brand loyalty! Albeit using methods that many people complain about, but it still works despite all that. We want to buy their stuff. We keep buying their stuff and they still make profit. And like a good fan-based company they turn that profit into more and more available GW kits and miniatures. Anyone remember what was available for their favorite army ten years ago? Now look at the sheer variety we have available to us at a click.

Well the supply is there but is the demand? Is the factory at Lenton still running at full output? Maybe 5-10 years ago GW was 'by gamers for gamers' but now it's just 'Unapplogeticly For Profit' at the expence of everything that used to make GW such a unique company.

I remember what was avaliable 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and 20 years ago. Its shear scope and scale of what was avalable is a pale shadow of what avaliable now, if it's not profitable in the store is mail order only. They used to have the complete lines for WHFB,40K, Space Marine, Necromunda, Man-o-War, Dark Future, BFG etc all in the store at the same time. So your comment is proven false. Back in the day, if they released new rules for something in WD for one of there games and there was no model for it you made one. It's rather simple actually. You didn't have to wait for 'Gw official model X'.

-Loki- wrote:

Pyro-Druid wrote:Someone mentioned it's cheeper to buy from forgeworld. Just to second that, I've been considering getting a new waveserpent or two, including postage, I think I worked out to me AU$20 cheaper to buy for FW then GW.

It's cheaper for Australians. We're lucky right now because our dollar is so strong.

True, I'd forgotten that not everyone has such silly prices. But honestly, you'd think that us being able to get the "premium" sculpts at around a 25% discount of the standard models should ring some alarm bells. I think I'll stop here, don't feel like ranting more than that.

@ FabricatorGeneralMike
Gasoline is NOT, absolutely NOT in any way, shape, or form related to the price of a barrel of crude oil! at least not in the US where it's all based on who wants to turn the screw and what external force they want to blame it on when they do raise the prices. A barrel of crude cost $99 when Gas in the US was $5/gallon and when it was $2/gallon- but that is just my little rant....I thought about asking that very same question to the guy, but never got a chance, good point though, I can only assume they are already covered price-wise on their plastic kits. I do know that the resin is not oil-based though.

Another thing to think about though is that somewhere, there is a number that states X number of plastc kits can be produced from 1 barrel of crude (more likely it's using a more refined oil product though but i digress) and once the oil is converted to plastic kit (or refined oil product like plastic granules used for injection molding) it then becomes a finished good. Finished goods are not subject to fluctuations in the market for commodities (unlike gasoline where you are pumping gas from the underground tank that cost the oil company $3 to fill up last week, but today the price raises to $4 and they charge you more for the gas they bought last week cheaper aka Exxon Mobil making the highest profit for any company ever ever) IMO this is what we should all really be pissed off about but no one will ever do anything about because of our collective suckerism. but I really digressed.

To answer your other question yes, I believe the demand is there because we keep buying it I do! (I bought a zombie dragon just because I liked the model)

Yes the technology has been used, but not for a miniature wargames company at this scale. I can go to any of 4 games stores in town (opened because the market supports it) and buy a baneblade kit - so you have to admit that their strategy of getting me hooked, making a product I want, and distributing it to my area to supply it to me at a price that I apparently can afford is working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everything GW does is sound, some of their corporate policies are downright anti-customer, and anethema to the gamer, but in hindsight, I prefer having GW as they are as opposed to having no GW at all in the second decade of the 21st century. I really like lasguns and bolters, a lot!

dsteingass wrote:@ FabricatorGeneralMike
Gasoline is NOT, absolutely NOT in any way, shape, or form related to the price of a barrel of crude oil! at least not in the US where it's all based on who wants to turn the screw and what external force they want to blame it on when they do raise the prices. A barrel of crude cost $99 when Gas in the US was $5/gallon and when it was $2/gallon- but that is just my little rant....I thought about asking that very same question to the guy, but never got a chance, good point though, I can only assume they are already covered price-wise on their plastic kits. I do know that the resin is not oil-based though.

Another thing to think about though is that somewhere, there is a number that states X number of plastc kits can be produced from 1 barrel of crude (more likely it's using a more refined oil product though but i digress) and once the oil is converted to plastic kit (or refined oil product like plastic granules used for injection molding) it then becomes a finished good. Finished goods are not subject to fluctuations in the market for commodities (unlike gasoline where you are pumping gas from the underground tank that cost the oil company $3 to fill up last week, but today the price raises to $4 and they charge you more for the gas they bought last week cheaper aka Exxon Mobil making the highest profit for any company ever ever) IMO this is what we should all really be pissed off about but no one will ever do anything about because of our collective suckerism. but I really digressed.

To answer your other question yes, I believe the demand is there because we keep buying it I do! (I bought a zombie dragon just because I liked the model)

Yes the technology has been used, but not for a miniature wargames company at this scale. I can go to any of 4 games stores in town (opened because the market supports it) and buy a baneblade kit - so you have to admit that their strategy of getting me hooked, making a product I want, and distributing it to my area to supply it to me at a price that I apparently can afford is working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everything GW does is sound, some of their corporate policies are downright anti-customer, and anethema to the gamer, but in hindsight, I prefer having GW as they are as opposed to having no GW at all in the second decade of the 21st century. I really like lasguns and bolters, a lot!

Yeah, let's not even get started on oil/gas prices and policys. I have some very strong opinions on those, but I think we see eye to eye on that.

As you said it's probley refined into something like plastic granuals/beads/pelets etc but is that stable or dependent on external factors? If it is that is another excuse for the yearly price gouging that GW plc just loves so much.

Your choice of purchacing a Baneblade doesn't make any sence. I was talking about GW acting like 'slide core mold technology' was totally revolutionary best thing since the moon landings will let us make more awsome kits for you guys (then jack up the prices) which it wasn't.

I really liked the company GW used to be. I really like the universes they created. I love to play in those universes with GW figgies but I would rather use different rules as me personally as a gamer I felt that I have moved away from the 'bucket loads of dice, beer and pretzel game' as my main interest and more into a 'secenero driven kind of game that doesn't depend on adding unit points up to achieve a playable force/fireteam/army etc.

It just seems now a days GW doesn't want my money. -shrugs- oh well there are more companys out there that would gladly 'shut up and take my moneys'.

-Loki- wrote:It's cheaper for Australians. We're lucky right now because our dollar is so strong.

Yeah, we sure are 'lucky' when it comes to GW products...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

-Loki- wrote:It's cheaper for Australians. We're lucky right now because our dollar is so strong.

Yeah, we sure are 'lucky' when it comes to GW products...

Pretty sure I gave you a tasty link that avoids the embargo the other day... That brings us back to being lucky

I guess I have given GW Thousands of my dollars over the years, but in return I have a lot of cool stuff. I really like their plastic and resin stuff, and especially the fluff in the Black Library novels. I attended Games Day in Chicago, so I guess I am a FAN of the GW hobby, I can't really bitch about my investment (or maybe I don't want to because of my investment). I'll probably buy more stuff from GW and FW before i'm done. Either way, their formula is working IMO.

-Loki- wrote:

Pyro-Druid wrote:Someone mentioned it's cheeper to buy from forgeworld. Just to second that, I've been considering getting a new waveserpent or two, including postage, I think I worked out to me AU$20 cheaper to buy for FW then GW.

It's cheaper for Australians. We're lucky right now because our dollar is so strong.

Well, there's the usual GW price failures for us in the UK too.

Check out some of these

GW Sentinel £18.50
FW Sentinel £16.00

GW Ogryns £13.80 each (5 costs £69)
FW Chaos Ogryns (5 pack costs £69)

GW Imperial Priests £7.20 each (£14.40 for 2)
[url=http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/RENEGADE-APOSTATE-PREACHERS-OF-NURGLE.html//url] FW Renegade Priests[url] £6.25 each (£12.50 for 2)

The list goes on, so try and save some cash if you're ordering over £250, otherwise the shipping tips the price over.

yeah i don't like spending 50$ for so Korps of Krieg guys when I can use D.U.S.T minis that look identical and are 60% cheaper already made and primed but then again its FW

WHY DON'T THEY MAKE A STORE IN THE US!!!!! I am tired of the pesky shipping costs of the royal air mail

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:So they are moving off of Tin/metals because of the instability of the prices, and they are replacing that with the more stable pricing of oil?!? As plastic is a oil by product is the price related to the global market place price of crude oil like gasoliene or is it a fixed price that stays the same reguardless of external oil prices? If it's a fixed price they might have a hard time justifying with a straight face the next "annual GW PLC premium price matching endevour ©,tm"

I seem to recall my dad telling me that the 1973 OPEC crisis and later problems into the late 70s hit the price of plastic kits because the cost of oil surged causing rises in inflation and the general cost of plastics raw materials. It certainly affected companies like Airfix after which they slid into a decline while Aurora and Frog shut shop entirely.

If there was another serious oil crisis, and it could happen and we could face petrol rationing again, GW will be under serious pressure, as will all model companies.

This is still a bad day for hobbists.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:So they are moving off of Tin/metals because of the instability of the prices, and they are replacing that with the more stable pricing of oil?!? As plastic is a oil by product is the price related to the global market place price of crude oil like gasoliene or is it a fixed price that stays the same reguardless of external oil prices? If it's a fixed price they might have a hard time justifying with a straight face the next "annual GW PLC premium price matching endevour ©,tm"

I seem to recall my dad telling me that the 1973 OPEC crisis and later problems into the late 70s hit the price of plastic kits because the cost of oil surged causing rises in inflation and the general cost of plastics raw materials. It certainly affected companies like Airfix after which they slid into a decline while Aurora and Frog shut shop entirely.

If there was another serious oil crisis, and it could happen and we could face petrol rationing again, GW will be under serious pressure, as will all model companies.

Thank you for posting this. Thats what I have a hard time wrapping my head around. People keep saying that the metal prices are in such flux that GW can't make metal models profitibly, so they are moving to resin/plastic hybred. What I would like to know is if the resastic is a oil byproduct like plastic is? And if it is why do people think that this is a more stable/better/more profitable position for GW to be in. The whole finecast thing just reaks of someone panicing over the commodities price increase and jumping ship to this wonder product "That will hearld in a new era of wargamming-and be remembered like the moon landings"....without proper testing or any forethough involved.

Its not that I hate GW, I love there universes, and I know they will never be like they where, but they could still be "by gamers for gamers" not "Profit at the expence of everything else" like they are now. (god I do love these orkymotions =o])

I wasnt saying I agree, I love metal minis, I was just saying what the Specialist Games guy at Games Day told me.