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TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago. It's like it was so bad we've repressed our memory of it.

Wasnt that written by both Cruddace and Ward?

Vaktathi wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?

Culexus assassin, GK Techmarine

The Culexus is just the worst option of the 4 Assassins, it is far from useless.

and the GK techmarine is VERY useful in a Henchmen army for toting Rad+psychotroke grenades, and possably and Orbital Strike Relay, around. Then he can be an extra force weapon in the unit.

I'm a kelly fan, he writes well balances codexes. though ... after space wolves I hope to god they never let him write another MEQ codex.. unless they told him specifically " MEQ have to be overpowered" and so he went a little far under dirrection at the orders of GW to push some plasti (wouldn't surprise me) other than SW fluff he also does a good job imo of storylinines

as for ward... he's not that bad at game balance, i still think vanilla marines are par for the course on balance not to powerful btu not weak... but let somebody else write the fluff, and since kelly can't do MEQ fluff as evidant from SW... that leaves cruddance

speaking of cruddance... mindbogglingly good fluff I've read the nids dex cover to cover many times his descriptions are just that good. as for balance of codexes I think he suffers from opposite of MEQ syndrome he doens't want to make things overpowered and thus ends up having a few strong units but makign other things purposefully nerfed down where you wouldn't use them... I also think he should push for them to erata out force weapond instant killing Nids monstrous creatures... really hurts the dex vs greyknights... I even argue GK are more tailored against Nids than they are against Demons... but thats another topic completely

I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.

insaniak wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Interesting that, as far as I know at least, the Wolves codex didn't result in petitions asking for the author to be fired...

Pretty much every codex written since the start of the internet has resulted in petitions asking for the author to be fired. Lack of perspective is an awesome thing to behold at times.


The thing I find interesting is how ready people are to blame all of a codex's faults on the listed author. The codex is designed in the studio, so I would strongly suspect that the entire team has some feedback. The guy with the author credit is just the one who writes it all down.

Matt Ward isn't real, he's a house name for a conspiracy of studio staff to bring down GW from the inside by writing crap. While destroying GW, they also give the gamers a hate object to distract from their further nefarious machinations. Mwah ha ha!

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex.

You forgot the most important parts! Grey Hunters being the hybrids of Tac Squads and CSM squads at a discount and with more options plus overgunned and underpriced Long Fangs.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.

its just very imbalanced...

JoTWW is beyond overpowered, thier units are like normal marines but better... and for less points. its just to good, I'd be fine with everythign in thier codex (aside from jaws) if it only had a appropriate points cost.

I actually liek the grey knights codex, it is interesting, the units are different but at least you pay for the extra power vs SW where you actually get a discount

I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit. Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard. So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads. Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt, hunters are only LD 8. So really they are worse than regular marines or BA, same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.

DarknessEternal wrote:

TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago.

Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?

Hahahahahahahaaha

G00fySmiley wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.

its just very imbalanced...

JoTWW is beyond overpowered, thier units are like normal marines but better... and for less points. its just to good, I'd be fine with everythign in thier codex (aside from jaws) if it only had a appropriate points cost.

I actually liek the grey knights codex, it is interesting, the units are different but at least you pay for the extra power vs SW where you actually get a discount

Jaws isn't so much overpowered as it is overpowered against specific things. Namely big expensive gribblies. Its just annoying to MEQs and IG really don't care because there is more where that came from.

Jaws could be fixed easily if it just did a wound with saves allowed. Ork Nobs could take this once before dying and Carnifexs would just laugh it off.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit.

The squad leader is significantly cheaper than C:SM sergeants and CSM Champions, and all his upgrade options are 5pts cheaper as well. A Pfist WG with a combi-weapon is 43pts, a CSM Asp Champ is 65pts with the same setup, likewise a C:SM Tac Sergeant. The GH's themselves are 15pts with ATSKNF, Acute Senses and the amazingly powerful Counterattack on top of the highly versatile BP/CCW/Bolter combo. Tac marines don't get the Acute Senses or Counterattack or CCW, while CSM's don't get any of the special rules.

Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard.

They can get 6 guys (5 with heavy weapons +1 sergeant that lets them split fire), 7 with a WG. No other army can get 5 BS4 krak missiles for 140pts, much less that can split fire. BA's only get 4 for that many points and can't split fire, C:SM and C:CSM pay 150pts for 4 that can't split fire.

And lets not forget about Razorbacks (which SW's make better use of than most being much more effective in small squads than most other marine units), Predators, Dreads, Land Speeders, etc. they can get heavy weapons in every slot but HQ, although Rune Priests with Living Lightning probably should count.

So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads.

Very few players take full 10 strong Dev squads, and when they do it's to approximate the split fire ability that LF's get base. the ability to min/max and get the maximum amount of firepower out of the fewest number of points is much more powerful in this game than the expendable wounds the 10 strong squad allows.

Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines

regular marines are 16ppm, don't get a CCW, don't hav acute senses or the *very* powerful Counterattack, and need to be 10 strong to take *any* special/heavy weapon, GH's can take a heavily discounted special weapon right off the bat.

or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt hunters are only LD 8.

They become 9 with their heavily discounted sergeant

So really they are worse than regular marines or BA

How? I'm really not seeing it. Far and away better CC ability, identical short range firepower, more CC weapon options, all upgrade options at a discount, what's not like?

A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.

The CSM squad gets to fire the 2nd melta more than once and has higher LD with a reroll but can be swept and perma-broken. The GH unit has Acute Senses, ATSKNF, Counterattack (making tactical decision making less of an issue and mistakes significantly less costly and making enemy assault noticeably less scary), for a 37pt discount, or almost 4ppm. The comparison to a BA or C:SM Tac squad is only more in favor of the GH's.

same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.

The lower Ld is a non-issue, they can very cheaply and effectively get Ld9, and have ATSKNF to moderate it anyway, and it's not like Ld8 is *awful*.

A certain boss on a certain game seems able to say SPACE MARINE! DAT'S MINE! At every turn... you even communicate with him.

A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.

I just don't see too many people using them to that great of an effect my way, more people are interesed in loganwing or cheap blood claws, but things might be different in you neck of the woods. Its jus my opinion. It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.
anyway back to topic

Kelly is best,
Ward a far second
Curddice way out in left field on his own,
Vetock untested... yet (look for little blue men in his future)

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I just don't see too many people using them to that great of an effect my way, more people are interesed in loganwing or cheap blood claws,

Loganwing is one thing, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying that blood claws are not a unit that seems to heavily feature in most SW armies, especially given that the price difference with GH's is about 10-15pts after kit and are significantly less capable, as opposed to the nearly 40 between said CSM unit and the above GH unit.

Between 3 different metro areas in about a dozen events/stores over two years, BC's have been a rare sight. They're not bad, but the GH's are just so much better.

It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.

Not sure if serious >_>

fluff shuld have no bearing on points cost of units in the meta game

Loganwing is one thing, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying that blood claws are not a unit that seems to heavily feature in most SW armies, especially given that the price difference with GH's is about 10-15pts after kit and are significantly less capable, as opposed to the nearly 40 between said CSM unit and the above GH unit.

I'll give you that they are better than CSM, but compare them to GK strike squads, for a few more points per model every one gets power/force weapons and everyone is a psyker plus all the other benifits, now that is the real crime.

It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.

Not sure if serious >_>

oh yeah totally serious, if you make a pact with the devil you have to pay his price.

Grey Templar wrote:Cruddance's quality is all over the map, and the chance a codex will be better is directly related to how many units can be squeezed into the army list section.


Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?

We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.

A lot of Henchmen options are pretty terrible. The cost on warrior acolyte weapons also dont make much sense. (Giving a Warrior Storm Shield cost more point than a whole Crusader...)
Also, the other three assassins hardly match up to the vindicare. (Who's pretty darn good against just about anything)
Purifier also seem undercosted compare to strike squads, as shown by everybody running Crowe to get them as troops.

But SW is probably the worst, I buy a special weapon and get another one free?

DarknessEternal wrote:

TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago.

Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?

You're joking right? Sisters are more like marines light. The new Sisters codex is shameful. It doesn't even have its own niche that it excels at. Thier 'magic' isn't really that good. For 4 points less they get -1 WS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 I and are without ATSKNF. Their troop choice is really crappy. They don't even have impressive weapon options like a plasma cannon, missile launcher, or plasma gun in any slot. They have access to the heavy bolter, , melta, multi-melta, flamer, and heavy flamer. That is all. In close combat they die like Necrons. Close combat is to be expected to becuase of thier short range weapons. Their 'magic' as you put it is cut rate and only works during 50% of the game turn. Its not even as good as having Furious Charge.

If have missed some sarcasm there, I apologize.

Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.

For the CSM squad its only 220pts

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.

For the CSM squad its only 220pts

220 points without a rhino, sure.

andrewm9 wrote:
You're joking right? Sisters are more like marines light.

So you agree, they're just cheap marines as they do everything marines actually do, but cheaper.

andrewm9 wrote: For 4 points less they get -1 WS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 I and are without ATSKNF.

The only thing that even matters there is Toughness. Their faith covers the leadership just fine.

andrewm9 wrote:They don't even have impressive weapon options like a plasma cannon, missile launcher, or plasma gun in any slot. They have access to the heavy bolter, , melta, multi-melta, flamer, and heavy flamer.

Please consult Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, and Imperial Guard players on the number of times they would take any of those rather than juts take 2 melta guns in their Troops.

andrewm9 wrote:Close combat is to be expected to becuase of thier short range weapons.

Most armies have short range weapons and only marines and orks are any better at assault than SoB. Also, Battle Conclaves would like to disagree with your assessment since they are unequivocally the most cost effective assault unit in the game.

andrewm9 wrote:Their 'magic' as you put it is cut rate and only works during 50% of the game turn. Its not even as good as having Furious Charge.

Being able to rally at under half strength or within 6" of the enemy is far more useful than Furious Charge. As are relentless multi-meltas, and twin-linked meltaguns. Why would you even bring up Furious Charge? That isn't even something most units in the SoB army would even care to have.

Durza wrote:As will I be if he's kept away from the new Chaos. I'll be more than happy if, say they get Ward to do the rules and maybe Abnett to write the fluff...

Ironically, Ward's over-the-top-I-just-smoked-a-whole-bunch-of-crack style of writing would be more appropriate for Chaos than anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit. Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard. So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads. Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt, hunters are only LD 8. So really they are worse than regular marines or BA, same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.

1. Not even IG can get such an effective gun/point ratio as Long Fangs, there is a reason most tournament lists start with three units of them.
2. The Wolf Guard is CHEAPER than a similarly-armed sgt.
3. Heavy weapons for tactical squads are crap.
4. Worse than regular marines? You are hopelessly deluded. I don't know who you are trying to fool, us or yourself.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The only thing that even matters there is Toughness. Their faith covers the leadership just fine.

Lower WS, S, Init and Ld doesn't matter? Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.

Please consult Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, and Imperial Guard players on the number of times they would take any of those rather than juts take 2 melta guns in their Troops.

On just Troops squads perhaps yes. Sisters don't have access to any Las/Plas/Missile/etc weaposn in *ANY* FoC slot.

Most armies have short range weapons and only marines and orks are any better at assault than SoB

Huh? There's DE, Daemons and Tyranids that would like to speak with you about that. Also Marines encompass about half of this games armies in case you hadn't noticed.

Also, Battle Conclaves would like to disagree with your assessment since they are unequivocally the most cost effective assault unit in the game.

Um, what? They're the same units that the GK Henchmen have, and they're certainly not seen as the most cost effective assault unit in the game. Sisters lists aren't exactly swarming with Battle Conclave units. Where on earth are you getting this from?

Being able to rally at under half strength or within 6" of the enemy is far more useful than Furious Charge.

If you're under half strength, your combat effectiveness is typically gone, and being broken within 6" of an enemy is highly situational. Furious Charge is an incredibly powerful assault bonus. And what in the current Sisters list given them this Ld ability? I guess I could be missing something but I'm not seeing an act of faith or wargear item that allows that.

As are relentless multi-meltas, and twin-linked meltaguns.

Which are variable in ability to get off and only available to select units.

Why would you even bring up Furious Charge? That isn't even something most units in the SoB army would even care to have.

I'm fairly certain many sisters units would love to have that, such that they might actually get to strike before half the unit gets cut down and strike hard enough to inflict meaningful casualties.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.

Well I guess there's no point in continuing to argue with someone who hasn't even read the codex then.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.

Well I guess there's no point in continuing to argue with someone who hasn't even read the codex then.

Found it, was buried under the basic Battle Sisters faith thing which is 808921988230918239 pages long, my mistake. That said, it's a highly variable ability available to a single unit, and the fact that that's the only thing you bothered responding to before declaring victory and marching out with those rather silly assertions you made doesn't make you look any more correct. Trying to argue that Sisters of Battle aren't markedly inferior to Space Marines is rather silly.

I loved Graham Mcneill's work on the BT codex.

ph34r wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.

For the CSM squad its only 220pts

220 points without a rhino, sure.

No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater. They keep going back to the C:CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.

They keep comparing it to C:SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing.

Its just a shame that GW is unwilling to FAQ update older codexs with new point costs. New dexs need to keep the flow going, just look at the OTT elements of BA and GK. Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed. Suddenly you will find counter attack nerfed (which will effect next to no one except wolves) and just watch a few other "bennies" get changed.

Anyway - Kelly is my favorite author, Ward a distant last place. I really wish he wasn't getting as much publishing time. His codexs are pushing 40K into directions it just isn't meant to be.

Jayden63 wrote:

No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater.

There was nothing inaccurate about my comparison, both were done with identical equipment as possible and rhino's factored into cost.

They keep going back to the C:CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.

I agree it wasn't a great book, but nobody ever saw it as uncompetitive until Codex: Space Wolves came out. There are a host of other issues with the book, primarily related to losing huge numbers of units/models/wargear/abilities/look/feel/etc, but it was still seen as a relatively high tier army until C:SW was released. The basic CSM was seen for a while as one of the best Troops units in the game until Grey Hunters came out. When you've got almost identically equipped/stat'd troops that are far more capable for fewer points than any equivalent in other marine armies (CSM's simply being the most identical in terms of wargear), there's an issue.

C:CSM is often used as a comparison with C:SW precisely because the basic troops are so similar, and because the basic CSM was already seen as one of the best troops units in the game up until the time of C:SW's release.

They keep comparing it to C:SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing.

What on earth does C:IG's issues have to do with C:SW? The SW book was finished in terms of development by the time the IG book was released leaving no room to adjust, and to imbalance one army because of any issues with the one immediately preceding it as opposed to the metagame as a whole is awful game design. It is difficult to believe that the SW book would have been any different had the IG book not come out.

Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed.

Being released barely over a year after 5E came out? As the third book of the edition? that's somewhat difficult to believe, especially with the 5E change to Counterattack (again, primarily a SW ability) having been made so deliberately with 5E. To what writing on the wall are you referring to? (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything)

Please don't let Cruddace anywhere near the Tau codex his. He's done enough damage already with Sisters of Battle. I have mix feelings with Ward. I hate what he's done with the game balance, but at the same time love what he's done with Grey Knights and Blood Angels. Phil Kelly has consistently written codices that aren't too OP, but fits right in the tournament environment. It takes a skilled player to tap into Phil's codices whereas a novice could take the worst of BA or GK and come out on top.

They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.

Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.


Now TBH, I don't see a huge problem with any of the 5th edition Codi(whatever the plural is) Fluff or gameplay wise (Space Wolves I would have agreed with a few weeks ago, until someone said that whenever Space Wolves get updated, they are always crazy OP, so since they are always like that they get a pass). All of them seem fairly balanced with good Fluff, but that's just me.