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Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.

Ward introduced the stormshield.

Mire correctly he turned it from being a 4+ inv in close combat only (against one opponent i think) to being a 3+ all the time on a unit with 2+ saves..

But somehow, because everyone plays marines, this isn't considered cheesy at all...

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater.

There was nothing inaccurate about my comparison, both were done with identical equipment as possible and rhino's factored into cost.

They keep going back to the C:CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.

I agree it wasn't a great book, but nobody ever saw it as uncompetitive until Codex: Space Wolves came out. There are a host of other issues with the book, primarily related to losing huge numbers of units/models/wargear/abilities/look/feel/etc, but it was still seen as a relatively high tier army until C:SW was released. The basic CSM was seen for a while as one of the best Troops units in the game until Grey Hunters came out. When you've got almost identically equipped/stat'd troops that are far more capable for fewer points than any equivalent in other marine armies (CSM's simply being the most identical in terms of wargear), there's an issue.

C:CSM is often used as a comparison with C:SW precisely because the basic troops are so similar, and because the basic CSM was already seen as one of the best troops units in the game up until the time of C:SW's release.

Thats the problem right there. 50 point rhinos. 40 point blastmasters. Spawn for how much? Variable powers on possessed. The codex just does everything wrong. C:CSM has only ever had 1 strong tournament level build. And yeah, its a doozy, but the book is hardly competitive for those who don't want to run dual lash, obliterator spam. The codex was designed with a totally new design philosophy that lasted for exactly 1 codex. Just look how quickly it was abandoned. It doesn't matter that the basic CSM has the closest loadout to the GH. If the codex came out today I can promise you that the basic CSM would be 14 points, 35 point rhinos, and possibly have some other special ability that would make it on even footing with the GH. Look what BA did to assault marines and the massive upgrade they got. But that is supposed to be one of the BAs strong points. Too bad little got revised on the BA Tac marine but he couldn't take it too far away from C:SM because they are supposed to be the same thing.

They keep comparing it to C:SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing.

What on earth does C:IG's issues have to do with C:SW? The SW book was finished in terms of development by the time the IG book was released leaving no room to adjust, and to imbalance one army because of any issues with the one immediately preceding it as opposed to the metagame as a whole is awful game design. It is difficult to believe that the SW book would have been any different had the IG book not come out.

It has everything to do with it. As a whole, in a perfect gaming world, you want each army to be balanced with each other so that no player has a built in advantage (something it appears that GW has never even tried to do), but the Guard codex just crammed so much spam into it that it makes the C:SM look bad. Marines are the GW poster child and not just Ultras. All marines are their bread and butter. So yeah, I do believe that Kelly was told to put SW on a level equal to Guard when it became apparent just how OTT guard was. I also believe Cruddence was somewhat forced to tone Nids down as to not eclipse the most current marine codex (which would have been SW) he just wasn't allowed to make Nids into guard power levels. Now look at the power of the BA, on par with SW. But now we have a small dip in power with the DE because xenos are not allowed to win. Infact I'm amazed that DE is as strong and balanced as it is. Probably because they had a whole lot of new models to sell instead of just updated marine models again. Now that xenos is out of the way we bring the marine power back to IG, SW, BA levels with the GK. Does anyone else not see this a pattern?

So yes. I honestly believe that SW, BA, and GK wouldn't be what they are now if it wasn't for Cruddences OTT build up of the Guard codex. We all know GW game testing is atrocious, and the guard just has so many options its totally possible that the cheese was just missed. And even if SW was in the can as it were when guard was released, I can't help but think there were some last minute revisions (probably not playtested too well) to jack up the strength once the true terror of the Guard codex became exploited.

Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed.

Being released barely over a year after 5E came out? As the third book of the edition? that's somewhat difficult to believe, especially with the 5E change to Counterattack (again, primarily a SW ability) having been made so deliberately with 5E. To what writing on the wall are you referring to? (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything)

I'm just going by what the latest rumors for 6th ed and what developers have said about it. I can't tell you where the exact quote came from (probably some thread here on Dakka) but someone said that all codexs starting with SW were built with 6th edition in mind. Maybe GW knew when releasing 5th that the rule set was nothing more than a band-aid to try and address some issues in 4th and were abandoning it anyway. I'm not a GW insider and can only guess to their mindset. All I can say is that it is totally not what I'd be doing if I was top dog.

GW honestly needs some new blood for their codex writing as Kelly, Ward and Cruddace is not an adequate enough range. Kelly is the lesser of the 3 evils and the one I’d choose for a CSM codex. That being said, none of them are CSM players and thus probably wouldn’t be able to do them justice. Also I don’t care how popular/unpopular Matt Ward is, I don’t want him anywhere near a CSM codex, even if it is a MEQ force.

Jayden63 wrote:
Thats the problem right there. 50 point rhinos.

CSM's Rhino's are only 35pts. Dark Angels (came out 6 months earlier) started that.

40 point blastmasters. Spawn for how much? Variable powers on possessed. The codex just does everything wrong.

Not everything, the troops were (mostly) good, the termi's were decent, Raptors were pretty good during the tail end of 4th before the mech metagame/LoS/consolidation changes made them redundant, etc. Variable powers on possessed in and of itself wasn't a bad thing, but rather just most of the abilities aren't very good and whatever they can do Termi's can do for roughly the same cost.

The book does a lot of things wrong yes, but it wasn't seen as a weak for a while after its release. The basic CSM was often seen as one of the best troops in the game alongside the Ork Boy for quite a while if you'll remember.

C:CSM has only ever had 1 strong tournament level build. And yeah, its a doozy, but the book is hardly competitive for those who don't want to run dual lash, obliterator spam.

That was simply the top tier tournament build, nobody ever saw general "undivided" lists as weak until C:SW came out, they routinely won events, perhaps not as much as the Lash build, but well enough. Go ahead and do a forum search for threads a little over two years ago and I don't think you'll find that I'm wrong.

The codex was designed with a totally new design philosophy that lasted for exactly 1 codex.

Four really, Dark Angels, CSM's, Orks and Daemons. Early 2007 through mid 2008.

Just look how quickly it was abandoned.

I wont' argue that, but again, not so mcuh on the competitive side as it was the flavor/feel for the most part until C:SW came out that it really started being felt.

It doesn't matter that the basic CSM has the closest loadout to the GH. If the codex came out today I can promise you that the basic CSM would be 14 points

hrm, dunno about that.

35 point rhinos

They already are.

and possibly have some other special ability that would make it on even footing with the GH.

Possibly, but I'd expect that more as a result of the result of C:SW than anything else.

Look what BA did to assault marines and the massive upgrade they got.

Made troops?

It has everything to do with it. As a whole, in a perfect gaming world, you want each army to be balanced with each other so that no player has a built in advantage (something it appears that GW has never even tried to do), but the Guard codex just crammed so much spam into it that it makes the C:SM look bad. Marines are the GW poster child and not just Ultras. All marines are their bread and butter. So yeah, I do believe that Kelly was told to put SW on a level equal to Guard when it became apparent just how OTT guard was.

Except that the SW book would have been pretty much finished by the time IG came out (books are finished writing 6 months in advance of release generally) and there certainly wouldn't have been enough time to gauge the metagame response.

I also believe Cruddence was somewhat forced to tone Nids down as to not eclipse the most current marine codex (which would have been SW) he just wasn't allowed to make Nids into guard power levels.

Hrm, doesn't really feel that way to me, it feels like it was hamfisted into the release schedule and rushed out the door to fill a gap and meet a marketing niche for Space Hulk before the BA release 4 months later.

Now look at the power of the BA, on par with SW.

Hrm, i don't think I'd say that. One will notice that SW's still routinely remain more popular at events and place higher typically. Personally I'd rather face BA's than SW's.

But now we have a small dip in power with the DE because xenos are not allowed to win.

I'd say it's more because they are (and always have been) exceedingly vulnerable to certain foes and exceedingly capable against others.

Infact I'm amazed that DE is as strong and balanced as it is. Probably because they had a whole lot of new models to sell instead of just updated marine models again. Now that xenos is out of the way we bring the marine power back to IG, SW, BA levels with the GK. Does anyone else not see this a pattern?

Not really in the same way, remember the Ork codex and how dominating that was for 2008?

So yes. I honestly believe that SW, BA, and GK wouldn't be what they are now if it wasn't for Cruddences OTT build up of the Guard codex.

BA and GK you might be able to make a case for, though i still doubt that'd be the real case, but SW's were simply too soon after the IG codex to really have been adjusted for it.

We all know GW game testing is atrocious, and the guard just has so many options its totally possible that the cheese was just missed.

I fail to see how considering most people figured out the power builds before the book was even released.

And even if SW was in the can as it were when guard was released, I can't help but think there were some last minute revisions (probably not playtested too well) to jack up the strength once the true terror of the Guard codex became exploited.

Again, I have a hard time believing this, also because most of what makes SW's so good isn't necessarily a foil to IG aside from Long Fangs being cheap which is a foil against *everything*. 16pt Tac marines or 15pt GH's with Counterattack won't make a huge different to IG, the basic tac marine is already more than killy enough that CC is already a foregone conclusion for instance.

I'm just going by what the latest rumors for 6th ed and what developers have said about it. I can't tell you where the exact quote came from (probably some thread here on Dakka) but someone said that all codexs starting with SW were built with 6th edition in mind. Maybe GW knew when releasing 5th that the rule set was nothing more than a band-aid to try and address some issues in 4th and were abandoning it anyway. I'm not a GW insider and can only guess to their mindset. All I can say is that it is totally not what I'd be doing if I was top dog.

Nobody would do what GW is doing, as a corporation they're pants-on-head slowed. This is the company that operated illegally under UK law having the CEO also be Chairman of the Board, who then *borrowed* money to pay dividends to shareholders, conviniently doubling his yearly income due to his large stake in the company (which is exactly why having the CEO be the Chairman is illegal under UK law...)

I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.

Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.

I'm not a fan of Cruddace's fluff. The Tyranid Codex in particular has some stories that almost seem Ward-ian.

The Doom of Malanth'ai is dumb. The Eldar force hunting Tyranids didn't pay attention to a fething Zoanthrope because they thought it was relatively harmless; you know, the Tyranid unit that blows up tanks with its mind? And then the Eldar somehow missed this Tyranid playing in their Soulstones, one of the resources they must keep constant watch over? Said Zoanthrope is strong enough now to suck out the souls of an entire Craftworld, as if this wasn't getting silly enough.

Durza wrote:I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.

I agree with that. there should be something to account for their age an XP, but I do think they should have to pay more points for equipment to represent their limited resources.

thehod wrote:Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.

There's only 2 Xenos books in 5th.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Durza wrote:I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.

I agree with that. there should be something to account for their age an XP, but I do think they should have to pay more points for equipment to represent their limited resources.

The thing is, in many ways they don't have the limited resources many think they do. They took half the mechanicus with them, they are unbound by the Imperial mechanicus's heirarchy and dogma, they have access to the unpossible resources of the Warp and significant holdings of worlds and billions of slaves on said worlds.


That, and paying more points for gear just for fluff doesn't make for very good game balance, it just results in overcosted wargear.

DarknessEternal wrote:

thehod wrote:Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.

There's only 2 Xenos books in 5th.

Technically 3, Daemons are really a 5E book, they were released only a few weeks before 5E and some of their rules literally didn't mean anything in 4E (e.g. Offensive vs Defensive grenades).

Daemons ain't xenos y'all.

Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?

Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.

Vaktathi wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?

Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.

Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?

Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.

Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.

Well, they weren't just Fantasy, they both did lots of stuff for both systems. Additionally, Ward started out in fantasy and wrote the two worst books for 7E, Orcs & Goblins which were probably the least capable 7E book and then Daemons which nearly killed the game in many areas and required 8E (which admittedly Ward also wrote) to bring down to levels that other armies could compete with.

I never liked Allesio's stuff. Gav had his moments, but Allessio was hired basically just because he was good at playing Warhammer, and a lot of his stuff basically just tried to simplify 40k into Chess with Citadel Miniatures. He wasn't a particularly good rules designer and listening to his podcast on the 5E rules really reinforced that.

Vaktathi wrote:Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.

Well, they weren't just Fantasy, they both did lots of stuff for both systems. Additionally, Ward started out in fantasy and wrote the two worst books for 7E, Orcs & Goblins which were probably the least capable 7E book and then Daemons which nearly killed the game in many areas and required 8E (which admittedly Ward also wrote) to bring down to levels that other armies could compete with.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Oh I agree, Thorpe and Calvator should have stayed in fantasy which was their strong point. Ward should have never have been allowed to touch anything besides LOTR, he ruined fantasy and is on the way of doing the samething to 40K. At least after Daemons he should have been banished to the black library where he could do no more harm.

How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?

That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?

That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.

Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?

Draigo for one, a lot of the GK background stuff, Ultramarines honor guard having more battle honors and whatnot than entire companies of other marines, etc. Then there's also the ridicuslous naming conventions in the BA book and making Mephiston on par with Greater daemons. He also got slapped for changing the Land Raider/Drop Pod capacities (hence why they didn't carry through for other armies since then).

His tweenish excerpt about the UM's in WD doesn't help

Vaktathi wrote: tweenish excerpt

Never forget!

Edit: thanks for the link. I was looking for that the other day.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?

That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.

From what I've heard and seen, Codex: Space Marines has well-received rules outside of the "special character=Chapter" thing. Blood Angels was also liked.

But that's the rules, not the fluff.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?

Draigo for one

The misunderstood guy epitomizing the futility of the Grey Knight's struggle against Chaos? Once you think about it and get past the internet rage he's one of the deepest fluff characters ever.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The misunderstood guy epitomizing the futility of the Grey Knight's struggle against Chaos? Once you think about it and get past the internet rage he's one of the deepest fluff characters ever.

Sorta, perhaps if you interpret it that way. But just walking around making daemons your bitch within the Warp, destroying cities with a single blow, rampaging through a Chaos God's forests, carving a name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, etc, it breaks the suspension of disbelief when it does stuff not even the Primarch's or the Emperor did, that not even entire companies of hardened Grey Knights could accomplish.

The story could have had the same result with much less Derp and much more impact. As is, I don't think I've seen anyone have a favorable reaction to that story who's read it sitting around the gaming table or at the store. it's almost universally "wtf".

Maybe they should get someone to look over his stuff before they publish it then.

Jackster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Cruddance's quality is all over the map, and the chance a codex will be better is directly related to how many units can be squeezed into the army list section.


Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?

We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.

A lot of Henchmen options are pretty terrible. The cost on warrior acolyte weapons also dont make much sense. (Giving a Warrior Storm Shield cost more point than a whole Crusader...)
Also, the other three assassins hardly match up to the vindicare. (Who's pretty darn good against just about anything)
Purifier also seem undercosted compare to strike squads, as shown by everybody running Crowe to get them as troops.

But SW is probably the worst, I buy a special weapon and get another one free?

Some henchmen options are bad, but that is wargear not unit.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?

Draigo for one, a lot of the GK background stuff, Ultramarines honor guard having more battle honors and whatnot than entire companies of other marines, etc. Then there's also the ridicuslous naming conventions in the BA book and making Mephiston on par with Greater daemons. He also got slapped for changing the Land Raider/Drop Pod capacities (hence why they didn't carry through for other armies since then).

His tweenish excerpt about the UM's in WD doesn't help

Apparently he also retconned some battle Graham McNeill wrote about where the Ultramarines took massive losses?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: tweenish excerpt

Never forget!

Edit: thanks for the link. I was looking for that the other day.

Oh God, I thought it was all fine until the spiritual liege part...

Every marine except the mutants want to be Ultramarines? I'm sure the players of other chapters liked that one.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Why do people keep saying stuff like that, along with "he got in trouble for Warhammer Daemons". Just because stuff didn't carry over to another book doesn't mean he got "slapped", maybe he just didn't think about it, from his writing thinking is not a strong point. Nothing has happend to the guy because of his foul ups if anything GW has given him more freedom. I also have not read of any kind of reprimand being brought down on him.

No, he actually flat out stated at a Games Day he got his hand slapped (his words) for the Drop Pod/Land Raider transport capacity increase. Hence my words about that. It also shows how...unsupervised and individual a lot of these projects are.