Vulkan He'stan or Deathwing

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**punkow**

Nuggzninja wrote:
punkow wrote:

Ans... as a side note... Nuggzninja....
30 terminators in a Vulkan list? Please explain me how....

Well, you can take squads of up to 10 Terminators. 10x3=30. 30 Terminators. You can split them into Combat Squads if you like, for a total of 6 squads.

At that points value (1850) Deathwing armies typically only run ~36 Terminators anyway.

Yes... I know that you can field 30 terminators but then you have 1200 points of non scoring, footslogging units, that lacks any firepower... add vulkan and you have already reached 1400 points... you're lacking troops and your termies are going to be ignored while the enemy take down your few troops and easily win the game. If you want such an army DW is mandatory ... CML offer some long range flexible shooting and the termies are scoring...

It's worth noting that Deathwing Terminator units are fixed at 5 models. So, with no assault bonus they will have 15 LC attacks not 30 per unit, so to get 30 attacks you need a second unit. The deathwing terminators are more expensive by 3 points per model. So those 10 terminator not only take up two elite slots instead of one but also cost an additional 30 points compared to the vanilla terminators.

If you want a solid fist of terminators then Deathwing is not the way to go, more so because some of the rest of the codex, which will support the fist, is over costed and under optioned compared to Vanilla marines.

... have you ever read the DA codex? It looks like you never did....

**tedurur**

schadenfreude wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Heffling wrote:So, 30 LC vs 30 TH/SS Termies:

Assume no assault, one massed CC, perfect allocation of attacks (no wasted wounds)

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 15-5/6 wounds, 2/3 failed saves = 10-5/18 dead, call it 10.

So, you're now at 20LC to 19TH/SS, but everyone's striking at the same initiative due to the TH rules. Without the initiative advantage, the LC will end up wiping first.

That's not how Thunder Hammers work.

They reduce *models* who suffer *unsaved wounds* to I1. Every Terminator that suffers an unsaved wound will die, so the I1 is pretty unimportant.

Anyway the issue is Vulkan Hammernators w/ Master Crafting & Null Zone support vs. Deathwing Terminators that are Fearless. Deathwing is probably the better option except against other heavily armored elites (Draigo wing, Logan wing, TWC, etc.). In these cases, Vulkan Hammernators are more effective due to MC and NZ.

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

MC bonus is tricky 1/2 hit, then with 2 attacks each 3/4 of the misses get a reroll, which comes to 11/16 swings hit.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 11/16 (to hit with MC bonus on 2 attacks each) * 5/6=2090/96=21.83 wounds*2/3=14.555 unsaved wounds

It' messy, but the MC thunderhammers win.

The assumption was that Null Zone was active as well. That would make the LC termies defeat the TH&SS termies quite handily.

OnT
As others have said, If you want a single unit of rock hard termies, go with Vulcan. Not so much for the ability to MC THs but for the buff he brings to the other units and the ability to take the Libby with Null Zone in larger games (which is huge in larger games). If you want more termies you are better of with DW imo. A DW squad with FnP and 3 attacks at base is pretty damn hard as well for that matter.

**forruner_mercy**

What exactly does Master Crafted do?

**tedurur**

It let's you re-roll a single to hit roll. Since it's only one reroll/model it is important to use colored dice for each model with MC

**forruner_mercy**

That sounds pretty useful, if only so that hits happen more often, which could be a deciding factor in a game.
I fully understand that the twin-linked meltas and flamers is the biggest draw, but that is useful if only for that one time when you really need it.

**NuggzTheNinja**

punkow wrote:
Yes... I know that you can field 30 terminators but then you have 1200 points of non scoring, footslogging units, that lacks any firepower... add vulkan and you have already reached 1400 points... you're lacking troops and your termies are going to be ignored while the enemy take down your few troops and easily win the game. If you want such an army DW is mandatory ... CML offer some long range flexible shooting and the termies are scoring...

Obviously for 1,500 point games it won't work. At 1850 it's perfectly fine. You throw in 2 5-man Tac squads in Rhinos, put them in reserve, and have them show up to get closer objectives while your 30 Hammernators and other units work on contesting the far objectives. You combat squad into 6 units of 5 Hammernators. Then you run 2 x 2 MM/HF Land Speeders and 2 MM Attack Bikes for the heavier armor, and polish it off with a Librarian with 20 points of fu-fu gear.

At 1,850 Deathwing is running what, 6 squads of DWTs and a Command Squad with Belial, 36 Hammernators w/ 7 interspersed CMLs?

Instead of 30 scoring Hammernators, you have 30 non-scoring Hammernators that have MC hammers and can benefit from Null Zone. When you have 30 of these things running around in 6 different squads, plus 4 Speeders and 2 attack bikes, your opponent can't really ignore them and kill your troops, especially if your troops aren't on the table: they're in reserve. Troops are the absolute weakest component of Codex: Space Marines, hands down. Tactical Marines are a liability, so you benefit from spending as few points on them as possible. They're irrelevant in 1/3 of the games you'll play, only half the picture in another 1/3, and only one unit is crucial in the other 1/3. You don't need to hold all of the objectives. You simply need to hold one while you contest the others. There is more to high level 40k than setting up your stuff on T1 and running into a meat grinder.

**forruner_mercy**

What does Null Zone do?

**Lewa2321**

24" bubble around the Librarian that makes all enemy units re-roll successful invul saves.

**forruner_mercy**

Lewa2321 wrote:24" bubble around the Librarian that makes all enemy units re-roll successful invul saves.

That is pretty nifty. I think I would go Vulkan over DW.

**dripwelquest**

forruner_mercy wrote:What does Null Zone do?

Forces your enemy to re-roll successful Sv++ rolls during your turn.

**forruner_mercy**

More of a side-note, but what are Chaplain's good for? I am asking this mostly because the Chaplain in TDA looks really awesome. And for that matter, how good are the units that CAN take TDA?

As you can tell, I have a sweet spot for CC Termies and TDA

**Lewa2321**

A Chaplain and the unit he is with can re-roll To Hit rolls on the turn you charge. (And yeah, Terminator Chaplain is a fantastic and awesome model!)

**forruner_mercy**

Lewa2321 wrote:A Chaplain and the unit he is with can re-roll To Hit rolls on the turn you charge. (And yeah, Terminator Chaplain is a fantastic and awesome model!)

Hm. Too bad I have MC Thunder Hammers

Or else I would probably take him.

**punkow**

punkow wrote:

Yes... I know that you can field 30 terminators but then you have 1200 points of non scoring, footslogging units, that lacks any firepower... add vulkan and you have already reached 1400 points... you're lacking troops and your termies are going to be ignored while the enemy take down your few troops and easily win the game. If you want such an army DW is mandatory ... CML offer some long range flexible shooting and the termies are scoring...

Obviously for 1,500 point games it won't work. At 1850 it's perfectly fine. You throw in 2 5-man Tac squads in Rhinos, put them in reserve, and have them show up to get closer objectives while your 30 Hammernators and other units work on contesting the far objectives. You combat squad into 6 units of 5 Hammernators. Then you run 2 x 2 MM/HF Land Speeders and 2 MM Attack Bikes for the heavier armor, and polish it off with a Librarian with 20 points of fu-fu gear.

At 1,850 Deathwing is running what, 6 squads of DWTs and a Command Squad with Belial, 36 Hammernators w/ 7 interspersed CMLs?

Instead of 30 scoring Hammernators, you have 30 non-scoring Hammernators that have MC hammers and can benefit from Null Zone. When you have 30 of these things running around in 6 different squads, plus 4 Speeders and 2 attack bikes, your opponent can't really ignore them and kill your troops, especially if your troops aren't on the table: they're in reserve. Troops are the absolute weakest component of Codex: Space Marines, hands down. Tactical Marines are a liability, so you benefit from spending as few points on them as possible. They're irrelevant in 1/3 of the games you'll play, only half the picture in another 1/3, and only one unit is crucial in the other 1/3. You don't need to hold all of the objectives. You simply need to hold one while you contest the others. There is more to high level 40k than setting up your stuff on T1 and running into a meat grinder.

Well... it's a viable tactic but I still think that DW is better at this... even at 1850 points... the 36 termies you can field have Long ranged weaponry in the DW and this makes all the fifference in my opinion... Basically you have 12 ML more shots... they are also scoring and you have the support of the ravenwing that , even if it is a little OP , is still good . In addition I do not underestimate the Null zone but I think that this is a power that become useful aginst elite enemy units, while you already are very good against such units... what yo're lacking is the firepower to face large numbers of enemies that can easily drown your few terminators... 2+ is good, but not so ggod against 20+ wounds suffered... (maybe I'm obsessed by hordes, but they're pretty common at may FLGS)
In addition Those termies compete with great choices in a Vulkan List such as MM HF Dreads or Combi-melta Sternies...

In addition I do not second your low opinion about tacs... of course they will never be the eòlite assault troops they're supposed to be but they can do a lot of different jobs pretty efficiently
Anyway at higher points level the 30 assalut termies can work I must admit... maybe I'll give it A try. (BTW there's nothing "advanced" in keeping 2 rhinos in reserve nuggz...the problem is still the fact that your troops are few and extremely vulnerable ... remember tht it's unlikely that they enter the table after turn 3)

**DAaddict**

To state the obvious. Perhaps Vulkan termies are a bit nastier but they need something to "plant the flag" and actually control objectives. DW ARE your troops so 36+ termies that are troop choices are invaluable as opposed to the suggested 30 termies in elite slots. Get in an objective game with that and I am going to peel away the rhino and then proceed to kill your two squads of 5 tacticals. Vulkan termies are best going to be 10 maybe 20.

**punkow**

IMHO, DW termies are nastier... they have a CML and they're fearless (good against shooting... can be annoying in CC but with 2+ save it's not a big issue...)

**MFletch**

30 TH/SS termies is a rubbish idea. If you play with deathwing you soon learn this. You are foot slogging and hoping the enemy want to engage you at cc. If a unit wants to engage you in cc then it is a bad sign. Seriously watch out for 30 strong mobs of orks.

To field 30 termies you should be looking at near 2500 points for deathwing. With or without MC you still do not want that many assault troops that can not assault.

Please choose Vulkan because you are not forced to field mostly termies not because you want field 30 TH/SS.

**forruner_mercy**

I think that having an elite squad of, well, elites, would be what I am going for. Use 8 Termies with Vulkan and a Libby, and stick them in a Rhino. They could be my "banhammer" squad.

Then the other elites will be the Dreads and Sternguard. Also, because I will use Vulkan, is there a squad that would benefit the most from using the Chaplain in Termie armor? He is just so cool looking that I have to use him if I can.

**Red Corsair**

I hate DW TH/SS builds, I field Loganwing and Storm bolter the crap out of DW... The max unit size restriction on DW makes them extremely vulnerable to games 2000 pts or higher. I think at any point level vulken builds are more competitive, tl melta and flamer weapons is crazy good and the MC TH's makes them beat the crap out of deathwing... Heres a trick though, home brew your own chapter and colors and you can play both. I play savanna lions, my own chapter (thunder cat cavalry ; ) haha) and I use SW primarily and I can use codex space marines if ever I feel like it... or blood angels if I really felt like it for that matter...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note I just want to add that I have always LOVED the salamanders and have been thinking of starting them just to model them ; )

**forruner_mercy**

That is another reason why I would choose Vulkan lists. That many TH/SS Termies would not work too well.

Also, someone please answer my question about the Chaplain in TDA. I really want to take him. And can Sternies be equipped with some kind of flamer weapon?

And yet another reason for Vulkan: the library that is currently my de facto LGS has a player who uses Dark Eldar. I feel that if I went DW, then they would run circles around me.