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So, I am going to make a homebrew Chapter that REALLY likes TH&SS. But I do not know if it would be better to take Vulkan or make a Deathwing Termie list.
I was thinking Vulkan would be better, as I also get better flamers and meltas.

I'd vote Vulkan, if only for the glory that is throwing in a librarian and watching the opposing TH/SS terminators (Including deathwing.) fall over.

The question is really, "How many terminators do you wish to bring?"

If you want to have one hard hitting squad of terminators and lots of other support, then go with Vulcan.
If you want to have a majority of terminators on the board, then go with Deathwing.

I play both armies... they are very different....

With Vulkan you should play only one unit of hammernators cause you need them on a LR (250 more points) to work in sinergy with the rest of the army, and they also compet with the Elite slot that you need for your TL MM / TL HF dreddy that every vulkan army deserve!

With Deathwing you spam all the Hammernators you can with some RW bikers to telehomer half of them right where you need, and , if you really want to, you can add some 5 men Tacs on a Lasback (but it's not higly recommended competitivness-wise).

So the armies are very different.
With Vulkan you have a close range marine army that use ONE hammernators squad as a countercharge or linebreaking unit (so the Termies aren't your "core unit") in a close range mech army.
With DW you have lots of Hammernators that makes up the bulk of your force, a slow but tough footslogging army, that can advance inesorably toward the enemy, or attack on 2 different fronts using DW assault.

So... if you want a single unit of hammernators, go vulkan, but if you want to spam them, go DW... As a side note, in my experience the DW is a very tough army but it's very vulnerable against hordes (like orks or IG blobs) because you lack some anti-infantry firepower AND the mobility that you need to split the enemy horde in more handy pieces...
Vulkan SM are much more versatile.

I would like to use Termies as core units, but I think I will go with Vulkan just because of the added flexibility.

forruner_mercy wrote:I would like to use Termies as core units, but I think I will go with Vulkan just because of the added flexibility.

No reason that you can't use 30 Hammernators in a Vulkan list. The sweet spot is probably 30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, a couple of tac squads in Rhinos that you'll throw in reserve, and the rest Multimelta + Heavy Flamer Land Speeders. That's pretty lulzy.

30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, and 2 5-man Tac Squads in Rhinos puts you at 1740. 2 MM+HF Speeders puts you at 1880. Add in a pair of Attack Bikes with Multimeltas and you're 20 points shy of 2K so give the Librarian some upgrades and you're good.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:I would like to use Termies as core units, but I think I will go with Vulkan just because of the added flexibility.

No reason that you can't use 30 Hammernators in a Vulkan list. The sweet spot is probably 30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, a couple of tac squads in Rhinos that you'll throw in reserve, and the rest Multimelta + Heavy Flamer Land Speeders. That's pretty lulzy.

30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, and 2 5-man Tac Squads in Rhinos puts you at 1740. 2 MM+HF Speeders puts you at 1880. Add in a pair of Attack Bikes with Multimeltas and you're 20 points shy of 2K so give the Librarian some upgrades and you're good.

A DW army would do loads better than that army tho and the list you propossed would work better with Shrike as well for that matter.

DW makes the Termies troops, so max at 45 Terminators plus MotDW. And, DW Termies are Fearless and can take heavy weapons AND SS/TH in the same squad. Cyclone ML is a good choice for this because you don't have to give up the SS/TH on the termy wearing it.

Edit: And Deathwing Assault means half your units auto deepstrike on turn 1.

tedurur wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:I would like to use Termies as core units, but I think I will go with Vulkan just because of the added flexibility.

No reason that you can't use 30 Hammernators in a Vulkan list. The sweet spot is probably 30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, a couple of tac squads in Rhinos that you'll throw in reserve, and the rest Multimelta + Heavy Flamer Land Speeders. That's pretty lulzy.

30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, and 2 5-man Tac Squads in Rhinos puts you at 1740. 2 MM+HF Speeders puts you at 1880. Add in a pair of Attack Bikes with Multimeltas and you're 20 points shy of 2K so give the Librarian some upgrades and you're good.

A DW army would do loads better than that army tho and the list you propossed would work better with Shrike as well for that matter.

Yes and no. Generally having scoring Terminators makes the Deathwing a better option. Though the Vulkan Terminators would annihilate Deathwing. Krak Missiles don't do diddly to Terminators, while the Vulkan Hammernators have Master Crafted hammers, and the Deathwing would have to reroll their successful Invul saves (Null Zone). Long story short, they would splatter Deathwing.

Shrike Marines are another option. It's only a 5 point difference so mixing and matching is totally doable. I usually recommend Shrike in this situation, honestly, but this guy wanted a Vulkan list...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

tedurur wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:I would like to use Termies as core units, but I think I will go with Vulkan just because of the added flexibility.

No reason that you can't use 30 Hammernators in a Vulkan list. The sweet spot is probably 30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, a couple of tac squads in Rhinos that you'll throw in reserve, and the rest Multimelta + Heavy Flamer Land Speeders. That's pretty lulzy.

30 Hammernators, Vulkan, a Librarian, and 2 5-man Tac Squads in Rhinos puts you at 1740. 2 MM+HF Speeders puts you at 1880. Add in a pair of Attack Bikes with Multimeltas and you're 20 points shy of 2K so give the Librarian some upgrades and you're good.

A DW army would do loads better than that army tho and the list you propossed would work better with Shrike as well for that matter.

Yes and no. Generally having scoring Terminators makes the Deathwing a better option. Though the Vulkan Terminators would annihilate Deathwing. Krak Missiles don't do diddly to Terminators, while the Vulkan Hammernators have Master Crafted hammers, and the Deathwing would have to reroll their successful Invul saves (Null Zone). Long story short, they would splatter Deathwing.

Shrike Marines are another option. It's only a 5 point difference so mixing and matching is totally doable. I usually recommend Shrike in this situation, honestly, but this guy wanted a Vulkan list...

Yes, and 30 LC Termies would annihilate 30 TH&SS Termies, that doesnt make 30 LC Termies better than 30 TH&SS Termies.

If the krak missiles took out the landspeeders and the two rhinos then what?
You will both be foot slogging but one side has some long range weapons with probably some mobility.

If you want Terminators at the (Core) go DW
These can also mix and match gear in squads to make them all unique, which is one of the best things


If you want them as a sweet killy Star of Death take Vulkan

Though I think the site of massed Deathwing Terminators may look threatening (and in the hands of the right players they are).. I feel like a Vulkan list with master crafted hammers and twin linked melta and flamers are far more competitive these days.

So, 30 LC vs 30 TH/SS Termies:

Assume no assault, one massed CC, perfect allocation of attacks (no wasted wounds)

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 15-5/6 wounds, 2/3 failed saves = 10-5/18 dead, call it 10.

So, you're now at 20LC to 19TH/SS, but everyone's striking at the same initiative due to the TH rules. Without the initiative advantage, the LC will end up wiping first.

Vulcan does allow you a lot of flexibility. The problem is I almost like my unit of sternguard with TL combimeltas and TL combiflamers more than my TH+SS termies. The statement that a number of people have said is true. If you want one hammer unit go Vulkan.

Otherwise I would look at a Deathwing force. Nothing is as fun as planting 5 2+/3++ save terminators on an objective and daring your opponent to ignore the other 25 termies flying around and try to eliminate them.

Vulcan all the way all night all day over Deathwing, but not because of TH/SS, more so because TL melta and flamer is incredible.

If you're way more into TH/SS terminators then do the Deathwing.

Heffling wrote:So, 30 LC vs 30 TH/SS Termies:

Assume no assault, one massed CC, perfect allocation of attacks (no wasted wounds)

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 15-5/6 wounds, 2/3 failed saves = 10-5/18 dead, call it 10.

So, you're now at 20LC to 19TH/SS, but everyone's striking at the same initiative due to the TH rules. Without the initiative advantage, the LC will end up wiping first.

That's not how Thunder Hammers work.

They reduce *models* who suffer *unsaved wounds* to I1. Every Terminator that suffers an unsaved wound will die, so the I1 is pretty unimportant.


Anyway the issue is Vulkan Hammernators w/ Master Crafting & Null Zone support vs. Deathwing Terminators that are Fearless. Deathwing is probably the better option except against other heavily armored elites (Draigo wing, Logan wing, TWC, etc.). In these cases, Vulkan Hammernators are more effective due to MC and NZ.

I've got my own chapter going and have relied heavily on Vulkan for many of my games. TH/SS Terminators are sweet.

Something else that I'm trying now, and this is the benefit of making your own chapter, is running them as Blood Angels. TH/SS Terminators grabbing FNP from a Priest is fun. Adding Unleash Rage from a Librarian might be overkill... if there is such a thing.

At 1.5k, death wing is devastating. It's hard for folks to deal with 25 terminators.

At 2k, it's fairly even.

At 2.5k? I think vulkan wins.

From what I am hearing, I think I like the Vulkan and TH&SS death-star syle more.

imweasel wrote:At 1.5k, death wing is devastating. It's hard for folks to deal with 25 terminators.

At 2k, it's fairly even.

At 2.5k? I think vulkan wins.

you are fielding 25 deathwing at 1500?
I think Deathwing is very competitive even at 2500 points where jointwing lists can also be fun if you want to mix it up.

Playing Deathwing is weird and is not everyone. Small number of models, the utility of squads and lack of options mean on the battlefield you deal with very small decisions.

MFletch wrote:you are fielding 25 deathwing at 1500?

Duh. It's deathwing. Not many lists can deal with 10 ml's and 25 th/ss terminators at 1500 pts.

MFletch wrote:I think Deathwing is very competitive even at 2500 points where jointwing lists can also be fun if you want to mix it up.

Playing Deathwing is weird and is not everyone. Small number of models, the utility of squads and lack of options mean on the battlefield you deal with very small decisions.

Except Vulkan and libby at 2500 pts is better than deathwing. Not to mention a whole lot of other builds.

Vulkan is more diversified and can handle more lists than deathwing at 2500pts.

Ok, so TH SS Vulkan termies can beat the same number of TH SS Deathwing termies, But Deathwing allows us far more termies. Why not try 30 Deathwing vs. 20 Vulkan termies because they've got to waste points on troops?

DEbating about who will prevail between DW and Vulkan is totally pointless...
If the OP chose Vulkan we'd better help him selecting the other units ...
This is the list I usually use with Vulkan if it can help...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/342370.page

Recently I have changed the HB RB to a Lasback (previously I lacked the model...)
If you dump the scouts grab a Redeemer instead of the Godhammer and put a 8 men hammernator squad on it, you can easily use this list as a base


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ans... as a side note... Nuggzninja....
30 terminators in a Vulkan list? Please explain me how....

And about DW struggling against heavily armoured list.... NO NO NO and NO!!!!! This is exactly what they excel at... They struggle against hordes instead... I assure you that Draigo and his buddies are easy preys for the DW hammernators spam (this is a sad personal experience), while green tides, kan walls, IG powerblobs and, to a lesser extent, Tervigon spam , can make your dear DW cry...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Heffling wrote:So, 30 LC vs 30 TH/SS Termies:

Assume no assault, one massed CC, perfect allocation of attacks (no wasted wounds)

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 15-5/6 wounds, 2/3 failed saves = 10-5/18 dead, call it 10.

So, you're now at 20LC to 19TH/SS, but everyone's striking at the same initiative due to the TH rules. Without the initiative advantage, the LC will end up wiping first.

That's not how Thunder Hammers work.

They reduce *models* who suffer *unsaved wounds* to I1. Every Terminator that suffers an unsaved wound will die, so the I1 is pretty unimportant.


Anyway the issue is Vulkan Hammernators w/ Master Crafting & Null Zone support vs. Deathwing Terminators that are Fearless. Deathwing is probably the better option except against other heavily armored elites (Draigo wing, Logan wing, TWC, etc.). In these cases, Vulkan Hammernators are more effective due to MC and NZ.

30 LC strike first
30 * 3 (attacks) * 1/2 (to hit) * 3/4 (to wound) = 33.75 wounds, 1/3 failed saves = 11.25 dead. Call it 11.

MC bonus is tricky 1/2 hit, then with 2 attacks each 3/4 of the misses get a reroll, which comes to 11/16 swings hit.

19 TH strike back
19 * 2 * 11/16 (to hit with MC bonus on 2 attacks each) * 5/6=2090/96=21.83 wounds*2/3=14.555 unsaved wounds

It' messy, but the MC thunderhammers win.

The OP didnt ask who will win between the 2 types of army. You guys are getting way out of topic.

Vulkan lists are more of an all-comer list than DW. TL meltas and flamers will make your armies alot more flexible in dealing with many threats. Generally mech lists tends to be more successful in 5th ed. DW have quite a few bad match ups such as lash princes, vindicators/demolishers, venom spam and even genestealer spam nids.

It's worth noting that Deathwing Terminator units are fixed at 5 models. So, with no assault bonus they will have 15 LC attacks not 30 per unit, so to get 30 attacks you need a second unit. The deathwing terminators are more expensive by 3 points per model. So those 10 terminator not only take up two elite slots instead of one but also cost an additional 30 points compared to the vanilla terminators.

If you want a solid fist of terminators then Deathwing is not the way to go, more so because some of the rest of the codex, which will support the fist, is over costed and under optioned compared to Vanilla marines.

punkow wrote:
Ans... as a side note... Nuggzninja....
30 terminators in a Vulkan list? Please explain me how....

Well, you can take squads of up to 10 Terminators. 10x3=30. 30 Terminators. You can split them into Combat Squads if you like, for a total of 6 squads.

At that points value (1850) Deathwing armies typically only run ~36 Terminators anyway.

Yeah, I think I would go with Vulkan.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:At that points value (1850) Deathwing armies typically only run ~36 Terminators anyway.

They really shouldn't if done properly.

Deathwing cost only one point per model more as you will buy them a cheap CML. That is not really an option for Vulkan and the one point gives fearless.
Then you need to be selective with the rest of codex. Typhoons are dirt cheap for example, then other units like pred cost 10 pts more, even 5 men with melta in lazorback isn't too bad an investment. The HQ itself is a very reasonable price as well.

What is more Vulkan will need scoring troops and some long range weapons which is going to add cost. On that topic having the main thrust of your army scoring is wonderful.