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Grey Templar wrote:What does that have to do with anything?

Because the lasgun isn't less powerful than its smaller cousin.

If anything, I'd say the M14 would be equivalent to the lasgun, while the M16 would be roughly equivalent to the carbine. The lascarbine is not a slow firing, high damage weapon compared to he lasgun. It's a shorter-ranged, more mobile variant, like-- as I said-- an assault rifle over a full battle rifle.

Lasgun is a very ambigious term as there are hundreds of patterns, all with minor variations, differences in power/accuracy...etc

A better comparason is saying that a Lasgun is the equivilant of modern Assault/Automatic rifles that are used as standard issue for a standing army.

Blobpie wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:But, in game, lasguns are far crappier than AK in real life. Why does the Imperium use such ineffective weapon???

A lasgun has the ability to rip a human arm off (Roughly the power of a 50 CAL rifle), a Ak-47 does not.

Yes it does, I've seen it happen.


Look, I have just posted in another thread defending people who compare GW weapons to real weapons but you have to understand a number of points:

1: A Lasgun has no true equivalent in modern warfare because of the mechanic by which it applies its killing power.
2: Chain gun and Gatling gun are both horribly over and incorrectly used terms.

A Gatling gun is a hand cranked mechanical repeating weapon from the 1800s, the term is often applied to other multi barrelled weapons.
A Chain gun is an automatic weapon where the repeat fire mechanism is powered by an external power source (by a bicycle chain for example) and not the energy of the fired round.

Because of that you can't compare anything to the power of a "chain gun" - it is a meaningless term.

3: Because of stupid people the tightly defined and different weapons called SMGs PDWs, assault rifles, battle rifles, carbines and such have started becoming interchangeable.

Because of that you can't compare anything to them either - they are meaningless terms.

4: If you want to compare to something, compare to something specific.

5: Don't make sweeping generalisations, "an AK can't shoot off a guy's arm" is a load of rubbish, almost anything can happen in the right circumstances.

6: That stuff about Lasguns not penetrating armour is something I don't understand. You get an armour save, if you fail it your armour got penetrated - oops. Just because a Lasgun doesn't ignore an armour save doesn't mean it won't penetrate, it just means it isn't guaranteed to penetrate.



Also, autocannons are a bit vague but it certainly has a lot in fluff common with the 30mm Rarden cannon that has a flat trajectory of 1Km and can easily destroy armoured vehicles (while hitting rear armour).
Seems like a nice comparison to a Multilaser, other than the damage mechanic obviously.

Anyway - have fun.

Grey Templar wrote:Lasgun is a very ambigious term as there are hundreds of patterns, all with minor variations, differences in power/accuracy...etc

A better comparason is saying that a Lasgun is the equivilant of modern Assault/Automatic rifles that are used as standard issue for a standing army.

Then lascarbines are SMGs in comparison, because they are, by DEFINITION, smaller, more mobile variants of a lasgun.

In fact, there's even bullpup lascarbines, which are somewhat rare, but popular amongst mercenaries and assault veterans.

What? I thought we settled on Lascarbines being carbines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What? I thought we settled on Lascarbines being carbines.

That's what I thought, but then people are trying to argue that lascarbines are full battle rifles while lasguns are assault rifles (which are basically automatic carbines compared to battle rifles).

My own statement was something like-- lasgun's equivalent to the M14 if the M14 was standard issue, lascarbine's equivalent to a compact CQB version of the M16 (possibly M416?) if it wasn't standard issue.

I have the answer.


They're guns. I win.

j/k

Serious:

In usage terms compared to common soldiery of current times:

LAsPistols : Ornate shiny things officers wear. Such as a sword. Normal troopers don't even get one. :( or.... possible a secondary backup weapon

Lasgun: Yes. this is comparable to the current days Assault rifle. Every baasic soldier has one. Just like every basic solider now has an assault rifle. (i.e Variable settings(usually including semi and Auto, maybe even burst) firearm useful for short to midrange combat)

Multilaser: I would actually place these with a Rotary cannon.

Lascannon: an old school anti tank cannon. bulky, unwieldy, powerful.

Lynata wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:But, in game, lasguns are far crappier than AK in real life. Why does the Imperium use such ineffective weapon???

In game and fluff, lasguns are able to bypass the protection of even power armour and wound a Marine, though it takes a lucky shot. I really don't think an AK or any other contemporary normal assault rifle could have the same punching power! Also, don't make the mistake to think that it's just a beam of light - lasgun shots actually do "explode" on impact. It's a bit silly in terms of science, but it's not like 40k would be particularly realistic anyways.

Lasguns only tend to be seen as "weak" because most other weapons of the 41st millennium are so devastating. It's all a matter of perspective!

A las shot should flash boil the water in any flesh it comes into contact with. While its not going to be punching a hole in armor, thats going to do a real number on any surrounding tissue!

As an aside, a lasgun has a remarkably slow rate of fire for an automatic weapon, as described in the IIUP (it's 220 shots per minute). This is about 1/3rd the rate of fire of an AK47.

I suppose it makes up for it with the whole no bullet drop, arrives pretty much when you pull the trigger deal. The shot is pretty much guaranteed to go where you point the barrel.

There seems to be some confusion over a "chain-gun" and an "auto-cannon". They are the same thing. The weapon on the LAV-25 is usually called a auto-cannon, but is classified as a chain-gun.

Well, an autocannon doesn't explicitly HAVE to be a chaingun. It just normally is. But I do agree that a chaingun is not what most people would assume it to be, and is probably messing with a lot of perceptions.

All Autocannons are not Chainguns, nor are all Chainguns Autocannons.

As it so happens the most common examples of Autocannons, the trusty 25mm from the LAV etc are chain operated...hence leading to the confusion amongst those who dont spend all their time playing with/learning about them.

As it were, others are correct there is no direct comparison between las weaponry and modern kinetic weapons. But they do have comparable uses/purposes

Laspistol=Pistol, use-Sidearm (Ex: 9mm browning hi-power)
Lascarbine=carbine, use cq assault weapon (ex: M4/C8)
Lasgun=assault/battle rifle, use bog standard line infantry (ex. M16, AK-47, M14...all depends on the pattern of lasgun in use)
Multilaser=turret autocannon, use vehicle and infantry suppression, destruction of light vehicles (ex, 25mm, 30mm from various AFVs)
Lascannon=anti-tank gun, use destruction of armour (ex GF 17 pounder)


Side note: Comparing the cyclic rate of fire of a fire arm is almost pointless, as most trained forces are not sitting there firing on full automatic.

It doesn't have a burst fire mode IIRC, so it's either semi-auto or full auto.

Again that probably comes down to there being hundreds of Lasgun variations. There is bound to be a few out there that have burst settings.

The M16 used to have a full-auto setting. Battlefield observation determined that this was a good way for a common soldier to waste a whole lot of ammo accomplishing absolutely nothing. Now? It's got three settings. Safe, Semi and Burst, firing 0, 1 and 3 shots, respectively.

I'm sure there's some lasgun "equivalent" pattern that has similar settings, or maybe "Off" (0), "On" (1) and "BURST" (5) or something. Maybe more. Also, I consider the slower rate of automatic fire from lasguns (compared to assault rifles) to be a technical measure to prevent overheating and thermal damage to the weapons functioning systems. Maybe the focusing lens cannot support heat build-up above a certain range/duration before warping, cracking or becoming so carbon-scored it can no longer emit light.

I think, as others have said, that the various broad types of las weapons are meant to be analogous to classes of weapons, rather than specific models. The laspistol is a side arm, like a Colt M1911A1 or a Desert Eagle, the lasgun is your M16/Glail whatever-the-feth-they-call-it/AK47/AK74/M14 bog-standard assault rifle, and the lascannon is your (slightly) man-portable recoil-less anti-tank rifle.

Bah...the C7 still has full auto...for some reason.

Slightly off topic, but this has been bugging me... the Elysian drop troops have been noted to use a bullpup configuration lasgun. This seems to me to be ever so redundant. Do they really need the extra barrel length? A carbine could surely do the same job.

as with everything in Warhammer 40k. It looks cool.

In this universe function follows form.

My 2c:

The lasgun variants are incredibly powerful weapons, far outstripping most modern day weapons in terms of power. Against humans (the majority of what the IG fights) they are effective to the point of overkill. It is extremely accurate. What's more it is crazy tough, incredibly reliable, easy to make, and if necessary can be recharged with a few nights of cuddling with you in your bunk (or throwing it in a fire overnight if desperate). Unfortunately for the IG, they routinely go up against creatures and technology that wouldn't even notice a modern .50 round. Thus, on tabletop the lasgun appears ineffective, but only due to unfair comparison. A Barrett 50. anti vehicle weapon looks weak when lined up against artillery.

As to the designs carbine vs smg vs whatever: effective ranges are determined by how far you are expected to be able to hit your target, not how far the bullet goes. Accuracy and power really shouldn't be effected by barrel length in a las weapon. Therefore:
* Pistol: obviously the most portable. Short barrel and lack of stock makes it innacurate due to the difficulty of aiming and shooting that way, not due to barrel length.
* Carbines: more portable, especially indoors. May have a folding stock making it even more portable, but making it difficult to aim at distances. The shorter barrel means you are less accurate when using the iron site (some pistols/guns extend a site in front of the gun for just this reason), thus limiting it's effective range
* Rifles: Longer barrel means iron site is effective up to ~100 yards.
* Long las: this just makes no sense. Attatching a scope negates barrel length as a factor in aiming, and since there is no bullet being accelerated down a tube the accuracy of the round itself isn't effected. My thought is that the tech-priests at some point learned that sniper rifles are more accurate with longer barrels and so just gave one to the long las because that's what'cha do. The scope, stock, and improved craftmanship and components are what causes this to be an accurate gun, not the barrel.
* Bulpup: Again, makes no sense. The bulpup design allows the bullet longer to accelerate in the barrel thus granting it more power, spin, and accuracy, but maintains a short barrel making it difficult to aim at range. HOW DOES THIS HELP A LASGUN!? The power and accuracy isn't helped by the barrel length! My guess is yet more ad-mech confusion.
* SMG: defined by the fact that they shoot pistol rounds. Las weaponry don't shoot pistol rounds. No such thing as a las SMG.
* rotary weapons: Listen to those who posted before! The terms chain gun, Gatling gun, and mini-gun are meaningless in this context. Rotary weapons rotate to keep the barrels cool.

For barrel lengths it might have something to do with focusing the laser. maybe they add lenses at particular intervals to make the shot more intense to reduce blooming.

This would make sense for a sniper rifle because at very long ranges blooming could greatly reduce the effectivness of the gun. additional focusing lenses would increase the weapons lethal range.

Grey Templar wrote:For barrel lengths it might have something to do with focusing the laser. maybe they add lenses at particular intervals to make the shot more intense to reduce blooming.

This would make sense for a sniper rifle because at very long ranges blooming could greatly reduce the effectivness of the gun. additional focusing lenses would increase the weapons lethal range.

And excellent thought. It could explain the barrel oddities. I don't know that I would 100% buy it, beams aren't going to bloom to any reasonable degree at the ranges people do combat at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, I could see that as more ad-mech mis-applied tech. They know that increasing the distance between focusing lenses decreases diffusion making a laser effective at greater ranges, so they just apply that knowledge to las weaponry, ignoring the fact that at the ranges las weaponry is used it is going to have a negligible effect.

Also, the longer barrel of a lasgun makes it a more useful bayonet weapon compared to a carbine, so it fits some fighting styles better.

The carbine and rifle differences make sense. It is the bullpup and langlas that are kind of wierd to me.

Lightcavalier wrote:Bah...the C7 still has full auto...for some reason.

Maybe we have a large stockpile of bullets laying around.

As ive said a couple of times....chaingun =/= rotary weapon in the same way that it =/= autocannon at all times. I know when I say it im thinking of the 25...but i know others have some confusion in that regard.

In other news...its 40k. Form Follows Function! If it looks cool in a drawing or on a model, then it exists that way, regardless of how it works or not.

My M4 still had full auto and not burst when I got out oddly enough.

Lightcavalier wrote:In other news...its 40k. Form Follows Function! If it looks cool in a drawing or on a model, then it exists that way, regardless of how it works or not.

This kind of comment is pointless. People enjoy discussing the hows and why's of fictional universes and rationalizing why things are done the way they are. That is WHY this particular sub-forum exists.

Why is that so hard to understand? How come in every discussion of the mechanics of a universe someone has to chime in with this same sentiment? It adds nothing to the discussion. If you don't enjoy these types of discussion you don't have to read the thread.

Randomonioum wrote:Slightly off topic, but this has been bugging me... the Elysian drop troops have been noted to use a bullpup configuration lasgun. This seems to me to be ever so redundant. Do they really need the extra barrel length? A carbine could surely do the same job.

A carbine might, but then again we've also had hinting that Lascarbines are less effective at the 'standard' engagement range of a Lasgun.

It's the same reason why we 'standard issued' paratroopers during WWII the M1 Garand versus the M1A1 Carbine, which was commonly given to vehicle and artillery crews: they might need the stopping power and the range during their operations.

The Accatran pattern Lasgun gives the Elysians the best of both worlds: the range of the standard Lasgun and its killing power along with the compact nature of a Lascarbine.

As for the Long-Las, it's important to remember that it's not "just a Lasgun with a big scope and barrel" on it.
It's an entirely different weapon. The majority of the barrel's extension is a cooling apparatus combined with a reinforced barrel so that the gun can employ "hotshot" cells, which are overcharged Lasgun cells which can warp or even destroy the barrel of an ordinary Lasgun.

Relevant pictures. Yep, thats definitely a bullpup configuration. Doesnt seem to have lost much size, either, though we lack a scale.