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Its just not a very good article. Its not very clever or original in the way it makes fun of 40k (if you want a good example, take a look at the stuff on Cracked, which shows an equally tepid knowledge of the fluff while at the same time being genuinely funny) and the actual analysis of the game doesnt go much farther than "it reminds me of Gears of War." Plus, yeah, the goatee and hat.

Boo-urns.

Yahtzee's fine when it comes to competant writing, and there was nothing wrong with what he wrote from a technical standpoint.

Yahtzees writing is actually fairly poor from a mechanical standpoint. It's front loaded and intentionally obtuse and dense, which while perfectly functional in his videos tends to fall flat when without the support of puppets. It's quick, flows poorly, and is daunting without being rewarding. He also argues from hollow and often times illogical bases. He's made a (faltering) career out of being a troll, but without the funny monsters behind his rants they fall exceptionally short of being entertaining or even thought provoking.

Yahtzees a basement nerd who managed to learn flash and garner some minor internet fame, but he's been getting progressively more bitter for years to the point where he doesn't review things frankly or relevantly any more. He simply complains about them. When he blew past call of duty MW2 and spent five minutes ranting that it was a bad game because he 'doesn't do multiplayer' i lost all remaining respect for him as an internet personality. He makes his money by pretending to be a whiny child and I don't really like kids.

As I said, he dislikes Warhammer 40,000 because he doesn't understand it. He has a basic grap of 'there is a table top game and in that universe everyone fights all the time', but that's about as deep as his understanding goes. It's a very shallow point of view, but it is where he bases his opinions from so you can hardly blame him for that. He dislikes Space Marine, the game, partly because of his limited understanding of 40K and party because it's a really dull game (I may love 40K, but couldn't disagree with anything he said about Space Marine - right down the bored emotionless voice acting). No need to crucify the guy for it.

I read a page and a half of anti 40k rants and repeated insistence on the superiority of storytelling without getting any sort of game review. I didn't continue reading at that point. I think the fact that at most a quarter of his space marine review was a review of space marine is a crime worthy of the crucifix.

To be fair, I had some of the same opinions before I started playing, and it took me years to come around to the lore. Honestly, 40k is a very different kind of setting, and I am not surprised that it turns some people off. Do I think that Yahtzee's review of the 40k universe is necessarily accurate? No. Do I think he gave it a fair shake? Not really, but I understand why he wasn't going to give it more of a chance than he did. Honestly, Napoleon Dynamite might have gotten really funny if I had watched more than fifteen minutes of it, but that fifteen minutes were so miserable I just couldn't sacrifice any more. And again, he is primarily looking at 40k from an outsider's perspective, and I think it is a fair perspective, if skewed by the perception that advertisement gives.

Not really, but I understand why he wasn't going to give it more of a chance than he did.

I think you mischaracterize his dismissive and insulting nature as being born from his experience with the game or genre. His body of work directly implies that he either plays the part of the curmudgeon or is simply a bitter douche. The mans bile filled prattle is what puts bread on the table. If he suddenly turned into an understanding or even logical fellow he would fall off the face of the internet.

The dude doesn't need to play the games he reviews. Often times he doesn't. He just sets up cheap shots and whines about the games fanbase or about his childhood.

You're taking some guy on the internet more seriously than you probably should.

Edit: And frankly when I first heard of 40k, I also had some of the same opinions. I however, chose to dig deeper, and found a great setting I enjoyed.

I also am not sure why you believe he doesn't play the games he reviews.

Damn right Void Dragon.

Yahtzee is a comedic reviewer in the same vein (but certainly not the same style) as the AVGN or everything at That Guy With the Glasses.com. Shummy's ranks above really say more about him than they do Zero Punctuation.

ShumaGorath wrote:The dude doesn't need to play the games he reviews. Often times he doesn't.

I assume you have proof of this yes? I mean, why else would you say such a thing other than being your usual cheerful and not-at-all-misanthropic self?

I never really enjoyed Yahtzee. I mean, I understand his humor, and I don't take it seriously, but I always get the feeling that he takes himself too seriously, and the "funny" element is lost.

I mean, I can rip on something all day, but unless it's actually funny then what's the point? I mean, I understand if you have serious problems with Space Marine, or even 40k, which I can respect, but please dispense with the notion that you're being "funny" in any sense of the word, as it's really not.

I can make overly-sarcastic complaints any day of the week, for free (and as an added bonus, on here too!)

Hate Space Marine and 40k? Cool. How about being funny for once?

AVGN he is not.

Las wrote:AVGN he is not.

Thank christ for that, I don't particularly want to watch yet another reviewer whose only joke is screaming at the camera, while getting angry and swearing.

I disagree with alot of Yahtzees point on this, because his reason for not liking 40k seems based on things that seem illogical.
The people who created it don't know real war and try to glorify it? What? Even basic research would have told him otherwise

The Space Marine game plays like GOW? Seriously? He might not have liked it, but christ I'm questioning if he even played the same game as I did, if he thinks that it plays anything like it other than having chainswords and guns.

I don't care if he likes the setting or not, but the reasoning behind his dislike of it is paper thin

infinite_array wrote:

Yahtzee's humor is the kind that, well, he just rips on everything. And I mean everything. He has that scathing, sarcastic wit that, so far, I've only ever seen from people who live in Australia. Which, being a soft, squishy American, is something I suppose one needs when you have to deal with a continent where virtually everything is trying to kill you on a daily basis.

Wait, you think he's Australian?

no he said lives in Australia, which is stated at the bottom of the pile of dross Yahztee pumps out when he nerd rage reaches overload.

I used to watch Zero Punctuation almost religiously; they were often very amusing exercises in creative abuse with a bit of constructive criticism tacked on. Recently i think the success has gone to his head and he's stopped really trying. It's been a long time since i watched one of his videos and laughed.

KoganStyle wrote:no he said lives in Australia, which is stated at the bottom of the pile of dross Yahztee pumps out when he nerd rage reaches overload.

Sorry, I didn't bother to read it.

infinite_array wrote:

Yahtzee's humor is the kind that, well, he just rips on everything. And I mean everything. He has that scathing, sarcastic wit that, so far,

The term is "Internet Cool Guy".

I don't disagree with anything he said, but he is still a tool...

Heavens, the nerdrage. And he just rips at the game being mediocre (which it, at least according to people who are not blinded by previous immersion in the setting, is) and snipes - lightly - at the surface sillyness of 40k. And 40k is pretty silly, on the surface.

I mean, folks, most fantasy/scifi miniature wargaming universes have pretty of stupidity mixed in. Usually, this is because caricature and larger-than-life settings are easier for people to identify with and because all factions need to have an appeal to large audiences (game world writers, straightjacketed to those demands, tend to fall into every Lowest Common Denominator pitfall they come across). In the case of 40k, we also have some 30 years of confusing crossing out/retconning/changes/mood swings by writers/Space Marine sales-driven Mary Sue-ing/sudden disappearances of large sections of fluff/you know added in, for added detrimental effect.

That will look silly, on the surface. It can look even worse, when you know more about the setting. Be thankful he hasn't bothered to read properly up on it...

The only hole I can really pick is his ignoring the existence of Guardsmen by saying that normal soldiers would be more cost-effective.

Other than that, he's right, 40k basically exists so that repressed nerdlings such as myself can vent the angst and anger we can't anywhere else by periodically yelling BLUD FOR DUH BLUD GAWD.

He also made a mistake about SM's only getting out of their suits to go to the loo, when we all know they can poop and pee in their panties and it gets recycled into acid spit.

Actually what is really funny is people being upset by this yet there has been some pretty nasty stuff on Dakka directed at real life people which goes down well with the punters.
Maybe the guy is even more on the ball than he thinks.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Actually what is really funny is people being upset by this yet there has been some pretty nasty stuff on Dakka directed at real life people which goes down well with the punters.
Maybe the guy is even more on the ball than he thinks.

Yeah. I'm actually a bit shocked by how much bile and anger is coming out of Dakka for this guy personally (especially when people full of bile and anger accuse him of being full of bile and anger ). I expected we'd get a lot more people laughing and agreeing with him. But it appears that's is not the case. We play with toy soldiers, and someone doesn't like our toy soldiers, and apparently that makes him a bad person.

I don't agree with every opinion he put in that piece, and I don't feel it makes him an internet troll just because we disagree. I do think the thrust of his argument though was pretty near the mark. For all of its posturing about being dark and gritty, Warhammer 40K is a very juvenile game. That doesn't make everyone who plays 40K or even everyone who plays Space Marine(s) juvenile in all facets of their life or even juvenile in this facet. But he's not the first person I've heard comment on the 9ft-tall-super-soldier-who-kicks-ass-all-day-long-and-absolutely-never-talks-to-girls power fantasy inherent in the space marines.

I'm not saying his opinion is right, but if we as a community were really secure in ourselves we wouldn't be freaking out and attacking the man personally just because he said his opinion.

Void__Dragon wrote:You're taking some guy on the internet more seriously than you probably should.

Edit: And frankly when I first heard of 40k, I also had some of the same opinions. I however, chose to dig deeper, and found a great setting I enjoyed.

I also am not sure why you believe he doesn't play the games he reviews.

He has admitted to it on several occasions. In the previously mentioned call of duty review he directly stated that he never touched the multiplayer portion of the game as he doesn't like multiplayer. Call of duty is a multiplayer game. It's where the majority of it's development time and costs were. He no more reviewed it then he did Space Marine. There is a visible pattern of avoidance for competitive or social aspects in the games he plays. Yet he reviews games based in those aspects. They are incomplete and deceiving reviews rife with false justifications for why his lazy ass can't boot up xbox live and lose a few rounds.

This entire discussion is about a review of a game he didn't play. I'm not sure how you can question why I would claim that he doesn't always play the games he reviews.

I assume you have proof of this yes? I mean, why else would you say such a thing other than being your usual cheerful and not-at-all-misanthropic self?

Drift through his archives, he admits to avoiding (due to dislike) portions of games that involve stories he personally doesn't enjoy, play forms he doesn't aprove of, or any sort of competitive element featuring other people. He's reviewing games often without experiencing their intended mode of play. It's his schtick. He's an angry old fsahioned ragenerd and it plays well online. That doesn't make it defensible.

What JOHIRA could have wrote:In his "Extra Pronunciation" this week, charismatic stallion Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation fame talks about a video game, and doesn't have a lot of good things to say.

I have been watching ZP for years and to be honest he rags on even the very best of games. If something like Bioshock couldn't escape unscathed, then what hope could a middling-to-above-average game like Space Marine have?

Wow, he took up alot of space to rant without saying much. No way that what little content there was deserved 2 pages unless you wanted to read about how much he likes AD&D and storytelling.

He evidently doesn't like the game much, but he really doesn't do a very good review of it.

He obviously doesn't like the 40k setting either, and also doesn't know anything about it's roots as a humorous satirical mix of fantasy and sci-fi with a healthy dose of 80's british culture.

At least he was honest in his title calling it "hating 40k and Space Marine" letting us know ahead of time that it was going to be a rant and not a review.

Ouze wrote:

What JOHIRA could have wrote:In his "Extra Pronunciation" this week, charismatic stallion Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation fame talks about a video game, and doesn't have a lot of good things to say.

I have been watching ZP for years and to be honest he rags on even the very best of games. If something like Bioshock couldn't escape unscathed, then what hope could a middling-to-above-average game like Space Marine have?

Indeed, this is what he does. It is his "thing". People taking him seriously and then nerd-raging about it are missing the point, and getting upset over a non-issue.

But, I have seen at least two favorable reviews from him. Both "Portal" and "Psychonaughts" were excellent games, and even the ever-bitter Yahtzee had to say nice things about them.

ShumaGorath wrote:In the previously mentioned call of duty review he directly stated that he never touched the multiplayer portion of the game as he doesn't like multiplayer.

In Yahtzee's defense, my experience with online multiplayer generally equals "playing a potentially good game with braying donkey-caves". Since no amount of awesome rendering and careful game-craft can surmount having to play with idiots, the experience is pretty much going to be the same no matter what multiplayer game you play (doesn't stop me from trying, but then I'm not an embittered game reviewer). If you have a solid group of friends you play with rather than random strangers, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

All that said, reviewing games isn't really what Yahtzee does. He viscerally tears the game a new one almost without exception. You don't watch his "reviews" to be informed about the game, you watch for the entertaining, and usually painfully pointed deconstruction of the games subject and tropes. And if you don't want to watch that sort of thing, why watch his stuff at all?

As I posted in the other thread:

Melissia wrote:Yahtzee's views are basically tainted by his dislike of 40k, which itself is almost entirely based on the tabletop game. Therefor I really can't help but ignore his views.

His videos are funny, but I take them with a grain of salt because I honestly disagree with him frequently about what games are good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:Frankly I've given up on trying to understand how people can claim the game isn't like Gears of War. It is.

Game based around cover based combat (GoW) != game not cover based combat (40k:SM)

It's quite simple really, which is why most people don't get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, I can't post a comment on Escapist because it uses facebook and FETH facebook.

So I'm posting it here instead as I'd typed it up already before finding this out, heh.

"As for the Space Marine game itself, yeah, it's Gears of War."
Right, it's basically Gears of War, if gears of war didn't focus on cover-based combat and had a melee system that didn't suck.

So basically, it's not actually that much like Gears of War, but rather, Yahtzee's somewhat incoherent dislike of Wrhammer 40,000* makes him interpret the game through a highly skewed point of view that immediately makes him dislike it regardless of what is actually there.

* As an aside-- yeah, Warhammer 40,000 is not for everyone, but the tabletop aspect is not the entire thing. In fact, I actually prefer the roleplaying aspect-- coming from a DnD background like Yahtzee did though in my case it was 3 and 3.5. I recommend Yahtzee look at the Dark Heresy roleplay books and expansions. Or if he'd prefer to roleplay a bit more freeform, Rogue Trader has rules for one to essentially play as a roving band of space pirates if you want to. Deathwatch is basically Space Marine in roleplay form, so I doubt he'd like it that much-- it's a bit too hack-and-slash for my tastes. And for that matter, Black Crusade came out recently which dramatically changed the class system to add more variety, so you can play the enemies of the Imperium-- or simply a non-Imperial human. Rogue Trader allows one to play non-humans, as well.

I really recommend Yahtzee look into these excellent PnP rpgs by Fantasy Flight Games if he really prefers roleplaying aspects. Same with FFG's second edition (not the most recent card game/tabletop game style...) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

IcyCool wrote:In Yahtzee's defense, my experience with online multiplayer generally equals "playing a potentially good game with braying donkey-caves". Since no amount of awesome rendering and careful game-craft can surmount having to play with idiots, the experience is pretty much going to be the same no matter what multiplayer game you play (doesn't stop me from trying, but then I'm not an embittered game reviewer).

Also, presuming he played it on the PC, it doesn't help that the multiplayer is essentially broken by not having the default vox setting be push-to-talk. Up until the "mute all"* button was released, I could enjoy spending literally ever game by, each round, hitting tab and muting Mr. Mouthepanting, Captain Feedback, Sergeant BackgroundTV and other assorted miscreants. That's in addition to the inescapable lot of hooligans that are a fixture of multiplay, such as the squeaky voiced 10 year old, the guy who communicates only in homosexual slurs, and the guy who is so high right now, and wants everyone to know it. They took a cesspool and made sure by default it was funneled right into your ear.

*By the way, Relic, adding a "mute all" button fixes the problem like "giving people buckets" fixes a leaky boat. But that's a whole other thread.

If I wasn't aware this was Extra Punctuation this line would have been the giveaway:

"Which (40k) existed primarily to remove all the money from your bank account and replace it with plastic figurines. But you could paint them! For days on end! That's what we like! It's all the fun of a coloring book without having to be associated with five-year-olds!"

Hi-larious! Let's all laugh together. He certainly does rip every game he plays and to be fair concerning the multiplayer in Australia there is a massive time difference and few players in the timezone/area. Or at least I remember something to that effect in a ZP. I enjoyed CoD but not so much the multiplayer unless I was with 2-4 friends and we made a weekend of it. Then it was more hanging with friends and not the terrible online (vocal) content.

Someone posted above about it not being funny. When I thought about it I had to admit, I did not lol once.
Not so much as a guffawalol, ne'er e'en a titter.

ps colouring in is popular with kids over 5 yo
Five yo are not so good at it and tend to just scrawl colours in the areas

pps I like colouring in minis and grown ups tell me how clever I am!!

mrwhoop wrote:"Which (40k) existed primarily to remove all the money from your bank account and replace it with plastic figurines.

Since he is based in Australia, wouldn't that be a fair assesment? I've seen the Australian prices of GW.

In Yahtzee's defense, my experience with online multiplayer generally equals "playing a potentially good game with braying donkey-caves". Since no amount of awesome rendering and careful game-craft can surmount having to play with idiots, the experience is pretty much going to be the same no matter what multiplayer game you play (doesn't stop me from trying, but then I'm not an embittered game reviewer). If you have a solid group of friends you play with rather than random strangers, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Given the online playercounts in games like call of duty it does not appear to be the rule. If you don't have any friends to play with or you had a bad experience online thats fine, but don't project. I'm polite when I'm online and I rarely run into situations wherein i'm bothered or angered by others. Get thicker skin. People aren't computers, either in the game or real life. Playing against people can give a very different and enjoyable experience then performing the same action against the same scripted computer for thirteen hours like in many single player games. Humans are tricky and they will learn your behavior. I prefer games against humans possibly because I'm good at videogames and tend to 'beat' the computer rather quickly in most titles. Single player story lines are good only once to me generally. Other people can be fun for far longer.

It's hinted that yahzee is either very bad at the games he plays or has very few friends to play them with. Given his persona I can believe it.

ShumaGorath wrote:Given the online playercounts in games like call of duty it does not appear to be the rule.

Sure it is. The multiplayer base isn't a general cesspool because it's small. Online gaming and automated matchmaking in particular is the proverbial steak around the neck of the lowest common denominator which, as you can imagine, only encourages them to flock to it more.

And I made no claims about the quality of any online multiplayer game, merely the quality of the experience with its unpleasant players (who certainly seem to be the majority). It is a testament to the competitive spirit of humanity that player counts are high despite the incredible ratio of ... unpleasant opponents. Also note that I did not, at any point, indicate that the general multiplayer experience is the fault of the game developers. It's simply a fact of online gaming life. That doesn't make it "good" or "acceptable", call a spade a spade my good man and be done with it.

I've long held the opinion that the best thing about online gaming is the ability to play against or with other human players. Unfortunately, that is also the worst thing about online gaming.

ShumaGorath wrote:<snip>some random stuff including personal insults, chest thumping, and the ludicrous suggestion that I'd enjoy the cesspool more if only I had some wading boots.</snip>

Seriously? Try taking a moment to step back and look at what I wrote. I did not attack you in any way, shape, or form. So why did you choose to do so?

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm polite when I'm online

You may want to reconsider your previous post then. Or broadcast hipocrisy, either way, it's no skin off my back.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's hinted that yahzee is either very bad at the games he plays or has very few friends to play them with. Given his persona I can believe it.

How is his skill relevant? I've always found it quite clear that his "reviews" are just entertaining rants that provide very little information. I'd gathered that his "reviews" were just there for entertainment. Is this not a common view of Zero Punctuation?

Worth noting, I haven't kept on his stuff for quite some time now (over a year, at least), so if the quality of his stuff has gone down, or his act has gotten stale, I'm not aware of it. Also, I currently have a copy of Space Marine sitting atop my media cabinet. I found Yahtzee entertaining, but if I based my purchases off of his reviews, I wouldn't own any games.

Edit - I mistook you for someone else earlier in the thread, most of your posts have been polite. Your response to me above where you insinuate that I have no friends, am easily insulted, and am probably bad at videogames is the only rude thing I can spot from you on this page. Edited my post to reflect that. And a final note, relax mate. I've got no beef with you, so I'd appreciate it if you directed no heat at me.

Zero Punctuation is not about producing a 'typical' review. Their stuff is 90% satire, and 10% legitimate criticism of games run through an amplifier. Yahtzee is basically just humor value, I mean, he gave Painkiller an amazing review ffs, and no one I know (other than me) liked that game. This is also not the first time he's taken a dig at wargaming and it's ilk anyway. I seem to recall in one of his reviews somewhere there was a comment about something to do with, "...the level of detail only a Warhammer player would care about."

It's ironic that GW would now sport this many white knights from the same source as so much GW hate. You guys need to grow tougher skin yourselves and quell the 'outrage'. Seriously.