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But that is this whole argument, the interpretation of 'that' in the sentence. You are just making the same argument as nos, just claiming that the 'that' means what you interpret it to be. It is not able to be defined unless they faq it, in my opinion, because it is too subjective.

I happen to agree with Nos. If you actually read the sentence it is clear that "That unit" is referring to the "a unit that includes a wolf standard" clause in the previous sentence.

This is because the second sentence does not make any sense without the first.

This proves that they are referring to a unit that includes a wolf standard.

It is on you to disprove this.

Also, the FaQ ruled, for vehicles, that any upgrades or special rules vehicles have, cease to work once it is destroyed.

Why would it work differently for Infantry models?

RAW it seems they don't get it if the Standard bearer has passed.

RAI who knows, sometimes I think GW is based in Amsterdam with all the craziness that comes in their publications

Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

Just break down the rule.

"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf."

Sets the standard when, who, and how many times the power of the wolf can be called upon.

"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."

Set the timing, duration, who is eligible and what it means to to use the power of the wolf.

The unit has called upon the power of the wolf. Not the wolf standard nor the wolf standard bearer, but the unit. When the next Assault Phase comes around, it is the unit that previously called upon the power of the wolf. Again, not the wolf standard or the wolf standard bearer, but the unit.

There is where adding personal commentary fails. The unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the spirit of the wolf is still present the next Assault Phase.

By the standard of arbitrarily changing units based on casualties, a normal Grey Hunter dying in the movement phase, would not longer make the unit the same either and thus would not get to re-roll any dice rolls of 1. By that imaginary standard, THAT unit that contains a 10 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard is not THAT unit that contains 9 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard.

Good luck THAT one.

Again it does not matter.

Just like the Blood Angels Blood Chalice that grants FNP and Furious charge to a unit within 6" if the Priest with the chalice dies at initiative 6 in a combat, the marines that strike at I4 do not get the +1 str/ +1 Init.

They will rule it how they ruled vehicles.
Any upgrades or special rules vehicles have, cease to work once it is destroyed.

Why would it work differently for Infantry models?

Brother Ramses wrote:By the standard of arbitrarily changing units based on casualties, a normal Grey Hunter dying in the movement phase, would not longer make the unit the same either and thus would not get to re-roll any dice rolls of 1. By that imaginary standard, THAT unit that contains a 10 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard is not THAT unit that contains 9 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard.

Good luck THAT one.

This is not true, "that unit", that contains 10 Grey Hunters "that includes a wolf standard", is "that unit" that contains 9 Grey Hunters "that includes a wolf standard".

Since that unit still includes a wolf standard.

Once it becomes 9 grey hunters without a wolf standard, it is no longer "a unit that includes a wolf standard"

"who is eligible" is "a unit that includes a wolf standard", as defined by the first part of the rule.

Stop dropping the who to only be "a unit". Otherwise ANY unit gains the benefit - after all theyre "a unit", arent they?

And, again, stop with your "adding personal commentary" nonsense. Since you are unable to show any and are unable to refute the argument except by ignoring parts of the rules (again, at least youre consistent) I'd suggest "gracefully" retiring.

Who gains the benefit, is who triggered the ability.

The "Who can trigger" is a unit that contains a Standard.

The Benefit goes to the unit that triggered the ability.

The benefit itself does not require the standard, it merely requires the activation of the ability, which itself, requires a standard.

This seems to be one of those rare cases where a GW author decided to have a trigger with a later effect, and wrote in for that later effect to still occur whether or not the option to trigger it remains on table.

DR: The Blood Chalice and Vehicle upgrades are vastly different: they require the benefiting unit to be within x" from them; so if they are removed from table, or you move outside of x", then of course you could not benefit from being within x". The Wolf standard requires the unit to contain one in order to trigger the effect, but then the unit that triggered it("that unit") gains the benefit no matter where they are in relation to the standard(including it no longer being on table) when the benefit time comes.

Kel - the upgrade in question does not require you to be within X", just for you to have made an assault move the same turn you disembarked from the Crusader. In practice you need to be within 6", but this isnt a requirement. It is an exactly analogous situation.

The benefit only applies to "that unit", which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - the upgrade in question does not require you to be within X", just for you to have made an assault move the same turn you disembarked from the Crusader. In practice you need to be within 6", but this isnt a requirement. It is an exactly analogous situation.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. That is not a Snarky comment, I seriously do not know which upgrade you are referring to. i was referring to things like grisly trophies or Torment grenade launchers(both requiring a unit to be within 6" of the vehicle). Frag assault launchers also still work even if the LRC is destroyed, because the unit did assault after disembarking from the crusader

nosferatu1001 wrote:The benefit only applies to "that unit", which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"

No it is not. If it were then there is no need to ever activate it, or, when 1 unit activates it any/every unit that contains a wolf standard benefits.

"That unit" must refer to the unit that calls upon the power(triggers the effect), otherwise the "once per game" limitation is removed, or the activation itself is.

Do you also claim that the benefit is lost when the Wolf standard dies to an attack during the benefiting assault phase? Or how about when the standard bearer dies on his way into the assault during the benefiting phase(via that 1-in36 chance of rolling 2 "1's" for dangerous terrain)?

Kel - I refer you to the FAQ:

Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule


Frag Launchers are a special rule.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about here. That is not a Snarky comment, I seriously do not know which upgrade you are referring to. i was referring to things like grisly trophies or Torment grenade launchers(both requiring a unit to be within 6" of the vehicle). Frag assault launchers also still work even if the LRC is destroyed, because the unit did assault after disembarking from the crusader

As I have posted earlier, and now Nos has posted, the Frag assault launchers do not work if the LRC is destroyed. In fact you can not even assault out of a destroyed LR that rammed, since you have moved and the Assault Vehicle rule no longer applies.

Why would Infantry work differently?

Ah, I overlooked that FAQ; FAQ answer there corrects me on the frag launchers statement, but in no way changes the Wolf Standard.

DeathReaper wrote:Why would Infantry work differently?

For the same reasons moving, shooting, and assaulting works differently with vehicles than it does with infantry.

As long as people arbitrarily add their own commentary to the debate as their, "proof" this discussion is useless. The hilarious part is that it is basic grammar as pointed out, not some self-created definition of what the word, "THAT".

1. Once per game,

Not three times per game or ten times per game.

2. a unit that includes a wolf standard

Not a unit that contains a monkey standard or does not contain a wolf standard.

3. may call upon the power of the wolf.

ACTIVATION!!!!!!

4. For the duration of the next Assault Phase,

Not the current Assault Phase, not the Movement Phase, or not the Shooting Phase.

5. all models in that unit

Not models in another unit, not models in a unit that called upon the power of the monkey, or models that did not have a wolf standard to call upon the power of the wolf. JUST the models in the unit that called upon the power of the wolf can then move onto the next step.

6. may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

EFFECT!

For the imaginary rules writers, what you need is the rule to say,

"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard can re-roll any dice rolls of a 1 for the duration of an Assault Phase."

You are golden if the effect of re-rolling dice rolls of 1 was tied into having a wolf standard except that is not how the rule is written. The effect of re-rolling dice rolls of 1 is tied into the unit calling upon the power of the wolf.

Read the above breakdown but stop adding,

"THAT unit is THAT unit which includes a wolf standard"

to step 5 because that is not the rule. It isn't the unit that includes a wolf standard that is eligible to re-roll dice rolls of 1, it is the unit that called upon the power of the wolf that is eligible to re-roll dice rolls of 1.

A unit that includes a wolf standard can run around all game but never able to re-roll dice rolls of 1. Why? Because the unit never called upon the power of the wolf thus allowing them to re-roll dice rolls of 1.

Kel - GW consistently rule that you must be in range / be alive / still be a unit at the time you wish to use the rule. THats why Infantry are unlikely to be ruled differently

The Frag Launcher rule is exactly analogous to this situation, and we know how GW ruled that one.

BR - yawn. Your argument still ignores what "that" unit is.

That unit is not the unit that includes a wolf standard. Keep trying to change the rules Nos to make your argument valid and keep failing at it.

I can have 6 Grey Hunter units, all of them including wolf standards and yet not a single one of them can re-roll dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase.

However, I can have 6 Grey Hunter units, that include a wolf standard, call upon the power of the wolf. Then and only then are they allowed to re-roll any dice rolls of 1.

That is where your utter fail comes in, you tie the effect (re-rolling any dice rolls of 1) into possession of the wolf standard. That is not RAW. The effect (re-rolling of any dice rolls of 1) is tied into calling upon the power of the wolf.

1. Inclusion of a wolf standard allows calling upon power of the wolf. STOP!

2. Calling upon power of the wolf allows re-rolling of any 1 in the next Assault Phase. STOP!

As I have pointed out, a Grey Hunter unit can run around all game with a wolf standard and NOT be able to re-roll dice rolls of 1, UNLESS the unit calls upon the power of the wolf. The effect is tied into calling upon the power of the wolf, not possession of the wolf standard.

I'm not changing the rules - "that unit" is defined, it was "unit with a wolf standard" that activated it in the first place. You keep dropping context, repeatedly

Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff. im sure youre aware of what that is, yes?

Seriously, enough with the ad hominems. You appear incapable of actually arguing the point and not the person or adding commentary that has nothing to do with the argument. I'd say I'm shocked....

As usual arguing with you is less than productive. Bye.

BR's argument only ignores your definition of what "that unit" is.

Let me give you an example of why your definition cannot be the definition they are going for(or at least a huge available exploit based on your definition):

2 Grey hunter units, both with Wolf Standards, they will be designated Unit A, and Unit B.

SW players turn; Unit A is in a razorback, Unit B is on foot. Unit A's razor back move s in the movement phase, and Unit B walks. Unit A's razorback fires in the Shooting phase, Unit B fires only assault weapons + pistols and activates their Wolf standard(this is their once per game activation), Unit B is in assault range of the enemy unit they just shot at. SW assault phase Unit B assaults the enemy unit they just shot at and benefits from their activation of the Wolf standard(everything right now is copacetic with both interpretations of "that unit") at the end of the combat the Wolf standard bearer model is still alive, and Unit B is locked in combat. Enemy movement phase: Unit A(still safely inside their Razorback) activates their Wolf standard(this is again still following the Once per game portion of the rule). The opponent looks perplexed and decides not to even shoot at, nor assault the razorback(let's say it is in a position that makes it inconsequential), shooting phase goes off without a hitch. Assault phase: SW player now states that Unit B receives the benefit of Unit A's Wolf standard because by your definition it is "that unit'(which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"); and a wolf standard has been activated.

Do you see now why "that unit" must be defined as "the unit that activated the wolf standard"(or rather "called upon the power of the wolf")?

Then you have the Duration of the benefit: "the duration of the next assault phase". "That unit", being the unit that activated the ability; has a benefit for the listed duration; this can be seen as analogous with Grimnar's "high king" rule; with lasts the duration of the turn whether or not Grimnar stays with the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff.

This claim does require some pretty severe changing of the rules.

Declaring these undefined terms(which are obvious from context to be analogous to "activate the wolf standard") to be Fluff, and thus not rules would turn the first portion of the rules into this: "Once per game, a unit that contains a wolf standard may."

That then leaves us with further complications. now we have an incomplete rule, so the Once per game bit can be thrown out the window because we do not know what can be done once per game.

So we move on to the next bit: "For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."

Ok so there are some hard rules in there... but wait, now we have 0 definition of what "that unit" means because we had to throw out the first part of the rule since it does nothing at all. Actually, your definition of "that unit" can be used here because while we do not even know what can be done once per game, we are already talking about "a unit that contains a wolf standard". Now, since the second portion of the rule has some actual rules we can see that "For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."... but wait, "Next assault phase"? Next assault phase from when? shouldn't it be "For the duration of every assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.", I mean with it being Next assault phase that would mean that it would never come into play because we have no reference points in time for the next assault phase to occur from.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I'm not changing the rules - "that unit" is defined, it was "unit with a wolf standard" that activated it in the first place. You keep dropping context, repeatedly

Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff. im sure youre aware of what that is, yes?

Seriously, enough with the ad hominems. You appear incapable of actually arguing the point and not the person or adding commentary that has nothing to do with the argument. I'd say I'm shocked....

As usual arguing with you is less than productive. Bye.

Nos, you keep adding,

"that unit with the wolf standard."

Care to point out the page number with that text? Or is it only in the Nos edition of the BRB?

And fluff has now been indictated to be included in the rules per GW with the new codexes. It is essential in this case and you are trying to use the now defunct argument that fluff =/= rules.

Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

Without the "fluff" that you want to dismiss, how is the wolf standard activated per RAW? Let me act like you for a moment and create some BroRam rules,

Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may activate it. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

Oh look, my argument still stands by taking out the "fluff" because the effect (re-rolling any dice rolls of 1) is still tied into activation and NOT inclusion of the wolf standard.

BR - and /ignore. Apparently you cant argue without attacking the person, in violation of the rules of the forum. I'm not actually putting you on ignore, because being able to see your attacks on other posters and to be able to report them is kinda important.

KK - "a unit that includes a wolf standard that has called upon the power" - fully defines the unit.

Ok, so Nos tactic 467 has come into effect;

Change argument.

So we are now fully defining the unit that is eligible to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase? Where is that found in the rule?

The RAW of the rule tells us the following;

To call upon the power of the wolf you need to have a wolf standard in the unit.

To re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase, the unit must have called upon the power of the wolf.

That it it.

There is no RAW that the wolf standard must be in the unit to be able to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase. There is no RAW that requires that you fully define the unit to include the wolf standard to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase.

There was a drinking game back in college that we used to play with new friends, GWAR (Game Without Any Rules). We just arbitrarily made up rules as we were drinking, pretty much ensuring that our new friend would be drinking copious amounts of booze based upon our "rules". You would have been great at that game Nos.

Done with this laughfest.

Not changed the argument, explaining what I was meaning all the way through.

Still violating rule 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not changed the argument, explaining what I was meaning all the way through.

Still violating rule 1

Do you even know the rules here or are adding your personal commentary to them as well?

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give a basis for a statement; without this, there can be no debate.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

1. You are adding commentary to the rule to make your view appear correct. "That unit is that unit which includes a wolf standard" is your commentary and is NOT the RAW. You call it context, I call it commentary. Either way, it is not the rule as written.

1a. Your opinion that you think adding your personal commentary to the rule (that is not founded in the RAW) as the proof that your opinion is correct is wrong. Prove that you are right using the rule, not what you create or add to the rule.

Brother Ramses wrote:Do you even know the rules here or are adding your personal commentary to them as well?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but he may be referring to Rule #1 here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.

I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)

Brother Ramses wrote:
1. You are adding commentary to the rule to make your view appear correct. "That unit is that unit which includes a wolf standard" is your commentary and is NOT the RAW. You call it context, I call it commentary. Either way, it is not the rule as written.

It is not commentary, it is basic reading comprehension.

"Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."

Lets break it down:
Once per a game(Times it can be used per game(Rules)), a unit that includes a wolf standard(Target of the power(Rules)) may call upon the power of the wolf(Fluff).

For the duration of the next Assualt Phase(When it works(Rules)), all models in that unit(Reference to the Target of the power(Rules)) may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1(What the special rule does(Rules)).

As far as the rules go, "all models in that unit" reference the (Target of the power) which is "a unit that includes a wolf standard".

No wolf standard in a unit, then there are no models in the unit that includes a wolf standard.

CrashCanuck wrote:I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.

I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)

The also ruled on other things that grant bonuses like a blood chalice in the FaQ:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks

And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.

The Blood Angels FAQ referencing the Blood Chalice is a nice little tidbit, however it is addressing an always on, "bubble" effect. Whereas the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."

You check to see if you are within the Blood Chalice "bubble" when you make your attacks to see if you get FnP and FC. You do not check if you have a wolf standard in your unit when you roll a 1 in the next Assault Phase, you check to see if the unit, "called upon the power of the wolf."

DeathReaper wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.

I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)

The also ruled on other things that grant bonuses like a blood chalice in the FaQ:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks

Blood chalice would be a static ability(as in always in effect, not requiring and "activation"); it is also an ability that is purely dependent on proximity to the bearer.

As far as your RC breakdown, there is a failure when it comes to some of your assertions; not in the comprehension itself, but in the application.

DeathReaper wrote:As far as the rules go, "all models in that unit" reference the (Target of the power) which is "a unit that includes a wolf standard".

"That unit" would not be the target of the power(because there is no target), "that unit" can only mean the unit that activated the power; Yes, at activation, the unit was required to contain the Wolf standard, but the effect of that activation does not require the Wolf standard to remain in the unit, this is covered by the duration to the power(throughout the entirety of the next assault phase).

You would not claim that the unit loses the benefit of the standard if the Standard bearer dies to a higher-I wound, or to a Dangerous terrain test when making the assault move would you?

The last sentence if fallacious: No wolf standard in a unit that already activated the standard(but before the next assault phase), is still the same unit that activated the Wolf standard, and as such is That(pointing motion) unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.

the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."... "called upon the power of the wolf."

Both of your quotes above are fluff.

If they are not, could you please show us rules how one calls upon the power of the wolf?

As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"

this is proven.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.

the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."... "called upon the power of the wolf."

Both of your quotes above are fluff.

If they are not, could you please show us rules how one calls upon the power of the wolf?

As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"

this is proven.

I already pointed out if you choose to ignore that part of the rule as fluff, then the whole rule ceases to function.

You cannot describe in rules term how you "call upon the power of the wolf"(unless you read this as activating the ability), therefore you ignore all of the first rule line, since you no longer have any definition of what the unit may do once per game.

Then you cannot define a starting point for you to get to the "next" assault phase, therefore you never get to use the re-rolls.

"call upon the power of the wolf" is Fluff, Unless you can find rules on how to do this.

taken the context it means activating the power. But there are no rules to "call upon the power of the wolf"

So it must mean activating the power, and that "unit that includes a wolf standard" "may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1"

No wolf standard, no re-roll.