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If you activate the wolf totem in the movement phase then randomly have the same guy who is carrying it die's before the assault phase. What happens to the power does it still exist or is it gone now. Iam asking this because i read it as : you need the totem in your unit to activate obiviously, but once it is activated or so called " called upon" I belive from reading it that they no longer need the standard in thier unit because 1, it met the previous requirement to have him in the unit when called upon and 2, thier is no limiter as to when the effect ends other then the end the following assualting phase and gives no mention of the totem having to be with you still.
So opinions?

In the asault phase that unit is not a "unit with a wolf standard", so how can it benefit?

But it was a unit with a wolf standard when it was activated. So how can it not benfit,
Does unit have totem, yes
Unit calls upon power does unit still have totem,yes
totem carrier now dies in movment phase.- no totem
assualt phase requirements for totem power
Was power called upon when unit had totem-yes
Is this still the same unit-yes
Both requirements are fullfilled, That the unit called upon the power of the wolf spirit while in possesion of a totem and the other requirement in which the unit is still the same unit.
Where does it say it has to have a Totem for them to benefit form the special rules, all they need is the totem for the activation and nothing more.

Because it talks about a unit in THAT assault phase being able to do X

It is no longer a unit with a wolf standard in THAT assault phase. It is no longer a "unit with a wolf standard"

Direct quote- Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.-
It is only required to be a "unit with a wolf standard" when the power is summoned.

Because it talks about a unit in THAT assault phase being able to do X(summon the power of the wolf). In summoning this power it is implied that it grants the combat effects stated in the next line.
So the standard is required for the summoning and the power of the wolf granted by the summoning gives the combat bonus, I.E even though the totem is gone the power of the wolf stay's with the unit.

"all models in THAT unit"

THAT unit is a "unit that includes a wolf standard"

THAT unit is no longer a "unit that includes a wolf standard"

"all models in THAT unit"
This could also be used to indicate the unit that had called upon the power of the wolf, and in doing so I would not be wrong in my statement. Using that is too broad a term, for it could used to reference the unit in many different way.
THAT unit at the time of the the summoning had a wolf totem.
THAT unit indicating the unit specifically from other units.

I must respectfully disagree Nos.

As a parallel example, if a farseer fortunes a unit, then dies, does the unit retain fortune? Yes, of course it does.

It has a set activation, then a set duration. If neither of these is interfered with the power/ability should persist.

Comparing apples to monkeys, there.

GE - fine, play it that way if you want. Its not what the rules say, however.

Well, for vheicles I found this FaQ, not sure why it would work any differently for other units:


Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule

From 40k FAQ Here

Tuagh wrote:I must respectfully disagree Nos.

As a parallel example, if a farseer fortunes a unit, then dies, does the unit retain fortune? Yes, of course it does.

It has a set activation, then a set duration. If neither of these is interfered with the power/ability should persist.

I agree with this. There's nothing in the rules that suggests that the standard has to be there after it has been activated.

"a unit that includes a wolf standard "

Present tense. As in, a unit that CURRENTLY includes a wolf standard

"all models in that unit"

All models in that unit that includes a wolf standard are allowed a reroll. Not includED, past tense, but includes.

You still need the standard alive otherwise the RULES state you dont get the benefits

nosferatu1001 wrote:"a unit that includes a wolf standard "

Present tense. As in, a unit that CURRENTLY includes a wolf standard

"all models in that unit"

All models in that unit that includes a wolf standard are allowed a reroll. Not includED, past tense, but includes.

You still need the standard alive otherwise the RULES state you dont get the benefits

You are adding personal commentary here. That is not what the rules say.

Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf.

That defines who can call upon the power of the wolf and when, ie, a unit that includes a wolf standard and once per game.

For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of 1.

That defines duration, who is eligible, and effect, ie, all models in that unit.

Now when the power of the wolf was called is an independent event from when the effect and duration occurs. When the duration and effect occurs, you are directed to who it affects, ie, all models in that unit. At no time does the death of the wolf standard bearer retroactively erase calling upon the power of the wolf event previously completed. Neither does the death of the wolf standard bearer change the unit that consists of models in that unit.

The only absolute way that would be possible is if the unit only consisted of an IC and a wolf standard bearer where they called upon the power of the wolf and then the IC was separated either by casualty to the wolf standard bearer or movement out of the unit by the IC because the IC becomes a unit on his own. However, at no time whatsoever does the unit not become the unit that called upon the power of the wolf when the standard bearer dies. Despite your claims of being based in the rules, as pointed out above, you position is based on added personal commentary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Comparing apples to monkeys, there.

I'd say more like apples to applesauce.

Fortune is well defined; this is still same/similar fruit, just slightly mushier.

I rarely disagree with you, but in this case I think Brother Ramses hit the nail on the head as far as parsing the rule.

It has a defined activation and a defined duration. Unless something changes one of those to conditions it should remain active.

Tuagh wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Comparing apples to monkeys, there.

I'd say more like apples to applesauce.

Fortune is well defined; this is still same/similar fruit, just slightly mushier.

I rarely disagree with you, but in this case I think Brother Ramses hit the nail on the head as far as parsing the rule.

It has a defined activation and a defined duration. Unless something changes one of those to conditions it should remain active.

Well the issue at hand is that nothing changes the unit. Nos maintains that the unit is somehow transformed into some other unit that had not called upon the power of the wolf. The unit that had a wolf standard did indeed call upon the power of the wolf. Just because the standard bearer has died when the effects of calling upon the power take place does not suddenly erase the unit that called upon the power. The unit and said models are still present.

BR - no, I was explaining the context. That certainly IS allowed - as you kept on glossing over the context, making elementary errors

"THat unit" is "a unit that includes a wolf standard", for certain

When you get to the assault phase is it still a unit that includes a wolf standard? No. It is there NOT "That unit" any longer.

Youre wrong on this, again

Explaining context while adding your own commentary to the rule that does not exist is just re-writing the rule to make your argument. Not the first time with you and i am sure not your last.

You keep glossing over the fact that the Grey Hunter unit that called upon the power of the wolf is still the same unit.

What happens if an IC joins the Grey Hunter unit after they have called upon the power of the wolf, but before the next assault phase? By your standard, the IC was not part of THAT unit, except that when the assault phase comes around, he is part of THAT unit.

By all means, point out in the BRB where units become a different unit.

What, its the same "unit that includes a wolf standard"?
Thats so laughably wrong....

Edit: to make it clear. That isnt "commentary" - thats the actual rules. Please, use some actual rules to explain how the defined unit (one with a wolf standard) is suddenly NOT that unit, and you may have an argument. Also, please point out thge commentary - i was explaining context, to make it clear where others were dropping context, same as you are doing and same as you keep on ignoring. Youre changing the context and hoping people will ignore it. Not happening.

Nos, you are forcing your interpretation of the word 'that' in the sentence, all of your comments so far have been based on the assumption that your interpretation is correct. But it can be seen both ways. If you could provide a quote from the BRB defining that your interpretation of 'that' in this context is correct, I'm sure everyone would be happy, and old mate Grey Eldar who started the thread would get a solid answer. If you can't provide a defining quote, it would have to be up to old mate and his friends to work out.

In my experience playing my brother's wolves, if someone has removed the banner bearer from the unit, re-rolling ones won't matter too much at all with how many men would be left.

Nos, I respectfully disagree with you. I understand what you are saying, but believe there is something that you are not considering:

There are 2 points of time involved with the Wolf standard: the trigger point and then the effect.

The trigger point is anytime, so long as the unit includes a Wolf standard.

the effect is the very next assault phase, and the unit that triggered the standard benefits from it'[s abilities whether or not the standard is still there.

Also the word "That" in the rule is used in 2 different definitions:

This first is used as a subject of a relative clause (ex: the boy that cried wolf) it is defining the possession of a Wolf standard in the unit in order to call upon the Standards power.

The Second is used as a pronoun to indicate the same unit who had activated the standard's power(and thus had a wolf standard in it at activation), is the unit who benefits from the re-rolls. Ex: This suit fits better than that one.

P.S. the word "that" has so many articles of use that it was very hard to write the above uses without using the word "that" at all in them(I felt it would have been confusing to use the first defined use in the definition of the second use; the bit it would have been used in was: The Second is used as a pronoun to indicate the same unit that had activated the standard's power)

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, its the same "unit that includes a wolf standard"?
Thats so laughably wrong....

Edit: to make it clear. That isnt "commentary" - thats the actual rules. Please, use some actual rules to explain how the defined unit (one with a wolf standard) is suddenly NOT that unit, and you may have an argument. Also, please point out thge commentary - i was explaining context, to make it clear where others were dropping context, same as you are doing and same as you keep on ignoring. Youre changing the context and hoping people will ignore it. Not happening.

As has been in several other instances your added commentary, not based in the rules, supports your flawed argument and thus you try and stand on your little mountain proclaiming that you are right. As before, you proof is based on what you add to the rule to make you right.

"That unit is still present, albeit with one less model. The unit still exists and that is all the rule cares about and that is all that the rule compells you to follow.

Kel -

"the effect is the very next assault phase, and the unit that triggered the standard benefits from it'[s abilities whether or not the standard is still there."

Thats my contention - that "that unit" must refer to "the unit with a wolf standard" to retain context - the only "unit" within grasp of the power, surely? I get your use on "that", but I see it as a different "that" - for both "units" mentioned they must be the unit with the wolf standard. If you dont have a wolf standard any longer, you are a different unit to the one mentioned.

BR - so, you were unable to point anything out as commentary, or use rules, as requested. Also if you could at least keep your ad hominems about me relevant to just this thread, it would be a help. Hard to counter "as has been in several other instances" when you wont even point them out in this thread, nor counter the point on context which you keep dropping.

Loss of the standard would not change the unit into a new unit, it is still the same unit that activated the standard.

If instead of just saying "that Unit", they had had added the words "containing a(or the) wolf standard"; then you would be correct in that the standard would still have to be in the unit.

But the unit is still the same unit(it is still "that unit") no matter who in that unit gets killed. To say that the unit is a different unit when the Wolf standard bearer is killed would mean that any of the USR's Logan Grimnar gives the unit he is with get negated if any models from that unit die(because the High king is not dependent on logan even remaining with the unit, he and his unit benefit for the rest of the turn). Or If Ragnar War Howls and a unit within 12" has a model die before I-step 5; it is no longer the same unit as received the war howl and as such none of their models benefit from Furious charge. Do you see how they must still be the same unit?

They ruled that any special rules or upgrades on a vehicle are lost once the vehicle is destroyed.

They will rule that units work the same way.

Nos has it correct anyway, without a FaQ needed.

without the standard in the unit you are no longer that unit with a wolf standard, since the standard is no longer a part of the unit

When did they rule that? who is they?

motyak wrote:When did they rule that? who is they?

Read my earlier post about the GW FaQ regarding Vehicle upgrades and special rules.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402475.page#3419276

Kel - but it isnt "the unit with a wolf standard" - it is a unit that contained a wolf standard....

OK Nos, I am with you concerning RAI. The unit should have the wolf standard still alive in order to profit from it. At least it should survive until the relevant assault phase.

But I don't see a mistake in the OPs argumentation, though I see one in yours.

You say, having a model with a wolf standard is necessary to be "that" unit. This is imo not the correct definition of "that" in this context, because there could be other units with a wolf standard and following your argumentation would mean, that the rule applies to any unit with a wolf standard.

If you say that after the wolf standard bearer died the unit is no longer exactly the same, I ask: What happens after the first regular dies? The unit is not exactly the same as before...

In my opinion, "that unit" simply means "the unit upon which power of the wolf has been cast". So if you call this unit "Squad Alpha", does it remain "Squad Alpha" after the wolf standard died? I say, yes.

So the wolf standard is necessary for casting and thats it. Sadly...

No, I am saying "that unit" is "a unit that contains a wolf standard", from the first part of the rule.

We have a definition for "that unit": "a unit that contains a wolf standard" (that activated it - necessary condition for us to be discussing the rule)

Contains is present tense. If it contained a wolf standard, it isnt "that unit" any longer - it is "a unit that contained a wolf standard"

" Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."

That unit clearly references "a unit that includes a wolf standard"

Since the wolf standard is no longer there "That unit" is no longer "a unit that includes a wolf standard" so the power does not work.