Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

*My account was abused by a friend I allowed to use it to post an argumentative and unrepentantly rude text, please disregard my last post in this forum, I apologize to this forum, and to the members mentioned in the post* Have a great day everyone I will now go hide my self in shame

Welcome to YMDC. Take it all with a grain of salt, I do.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: you pulled this worthless attempt at gimping an army you don't like

Do you know what they say about assumptions?

thakabal

See the tenets of the forum. Assuming we're not SW players is making a BIG mistake. Your ad hominem attacks are noted

Also - my weapons dont remove you - the Remove Casualties rule does. That rule doesnt go away. Your fallacious attempt at arguing rules is ignored. when you hagve a real argument, try it here.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Oh wow!! If I had to play against EITHER you, nos, or deathreaper, as a space wolves player and you pulled this worthless attempt at gimping an army you don't like, I would promptly start replacing all the models of mine you killed, back on the table if the unit of yours that destroyed them had been destroyed. Because by your "logic" your units don't exist anymore to have used their weapons to kill mine, therefore I removed them mistakenly.

Nice straw man - that's not at all anything like what we've said.

If you earnestly think that the rule for wolf standards is interpreted in the way you three claim, I have a hard time believing you have anything but the most basic of high school reading levels.

I'd be happy to show you my unofficial college transcript (that shows I don't have a degree) that shows otherwise, or list the books I read.. but it wouldn't be worth feeding this attack.

Per the space wolves codex: Once per game, for a unit that includes a wolf standard, may call on the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may reroll any dice rolls of 1.

Yes, we've had the rules posted in this thread more than a couple of times. Thanks for adding another.

Calling on the power of the wolf, per the rule, would be the same M.O. as calling a waaagh as an ork player. There is no "rule" for how to call a waaagh, and I cannot believe that ANYONE would be so asinine as tell the ork player "therefore you cannot call a waaagh."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. There absolutely are rules for both calling a waaagh and using a wolf standard.

NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.

Read the second sentence. Without referencing the first sentence, can you show me rules that indicate the definition of "that"? Because ignoring the wolf standard requirement means you're ignoring the first sentence.

I truly cannot describe how sick this whole discussion has made me, of players like you! I sincerely hope you do not behave this way in general to your opponents as I don't understand how you could get someone to play a game with you more than once. /rant

I'm sorry you felt the need to post in this thread. To be honest, I'm not this semantically inclined when playing, because I have more fun in the moment playing the game... but I realize afterward things that I screwed up during the game. I know, for example, exactly how cover saves for MCs work. I've posted about it here, and I discuss with my opponent sometimes when required. The last game I played, however, I completely forgot and when my opponent told me to roll cover saves for my Hive Tyrant, I did (not that it mattered - I failed them all). I discuss rules here partially for enjoyment, partially because if I discuss/read about them enough, eventually I won't forget them.

You know that whole Rule #1 of the dakka forums and the Tenets of YMDC? Yeah, since I've tried to be polite and discuss an argument instead of an individual, I'd appreciate if you extended the same politeness to me.

DeathReaper wrote:The second sentence clearly references the first sentence.

without the first you have no reference for 'That unit'

That unit clearly means what the first sentence notes as that unit.

Permissive ruleset does not allow for anything other than a unit that includes a wolf standard to be that unit.

remember the rules tell you what you are allowed to do, not what you are not allowed to do.

That unit that your are referencing from the first line still has the possibility to call upon the power of the Wolf Spirit, and the unit which is now being defined(by your thinking) by the term of THAT UNIT has already used it's one shot WOLF SPIRIT, Yet you are trying to define it by calling It so. With this incorrect definition taken out of the equation it only leaves units that have used a their Wolf totems to call upon the WOLF SPIRIT.

Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf." For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.”-
THAT unit may no longer call upon the power because they have already used it. And hence can no longer be the unit to which you were hoping to reference in that first line. Leaving only the Wolf spirit as the possible reference point in terms of THAT UNIT.

Grey elder wrote: [/i] Leaving only the Wolf spirit as the possible reference point in terms of THAT UNIT.

Regardless of which side you agree with, this statement is not true.

kirsanth wrote:

Grey elder wrote: [/i] Leaving only the Wolf spirit as the possible reference point in terms of THAT UNIT.

Regardless of which side you agree with, this statement is not true.

Why. The power of the Wolf Spirit is real in games terms for it is inferred that it is the second sentence.

Grey elder wrote:Why.

English.
The Wolf Spirit is not a unit, let alone that unit.

If you were meaning the ability to call one, it is still false, as the unit with the wolf standard is the only unit mentioned--the standard simply allows the wolf spirit to be channeled.

Editing to add:
The ability of the standard to call a wolf spirit is also irrelevant, only that the unit have one.

What I meant was the only viable reference point to the words THAT UNIT was a unit who has used a Wolf Totem to call upon the power of the Wolf Spirit.(french canadian here)

Gotcha, then I understand.

I still disagree, however.

That unit cannot be a unit capable of calling upon the Wolf Spirit, because the unit with the standard is no longer capable of summoning the Wolf Spirit by the time the assault phase occurs.

Editing for silly words.

Interesting point Grey.

Let me try and understand it completely,

Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf.

So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

The next Assault Phase has come around, the wolf standard no longer exists as it was used in the previously "once per game" instance. All that remains to reference is the unit that called upon the power of the wolf.

Did I get that right Grey? It has quite a bit of merit as well as presenting an even more interesting scenario in casualty removal prior to the next Assault phase.

The Grey Hunter unit that included the wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf at the at the beginning of his opponents turn. The opponent completes his Movement phase and during the Shooting phase he causes 8 wounds. Now the wolf standard bearer is just a normal Grey Hunter now, correct? He is no longer equipped with a wolf standard as it has been used and now has a standard Grey Hunter load out. He would be batch rolled with the other standard load out Grey Hunters.

The same instance would happen if the power is called before a dangerous terrain test as the wolf standard no longer exists once the power of the wolf has been called and the bearer is now just a normal Grey Hunter with the standard load out.

Now that I am thinking about more, pretty damn nice angle Grey.

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

kirsanth wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Why.

English.
The Wolf Spirit is not a unit, let alone that unit.

If you were meaning the ability to call one, it is still false, as the unit with the wolf standard is the only unit mentioned--the standard simply allows the wolf spirit to be channeled.

Editing to add:
The ability of the standard to call a wolf spirit is also irrelevant, only that the unit have one.

1 The ability to call upon the Wolf is very important because it seperates the re-rool effect from the totem by means of the Wolf spirit.
2. Totem grants ability to call upon the wolf spirit,----> wolf spirit grants the ability to re-roll.
3. With the first line it never states that the totem has to be kept for any amount of time after for the unit to keep the power of the wolf , once it is called it stays.
4. Definition of "That unit" kicks in and then determines who is subject to the power of the Wolf Spirit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

I said it was not part of my argument, but DR kept trying to reference Hunter Killer missiles that are no longer present for weapon destroyed results after they have been fired. In addition, other arguments have been presented in this forum that once a combi-weapon fires it's special weapon, the bearer is no longer equipped with a combi-weapon and creates a new wound allocation group. The IG bomb carrier guy as well after he has used his one time bomb toss thing, is replaced with a normal equipped model and joins like wound allocation groups from then on as well.

As I said, I was just trying to get the point of Grey's argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.

Grey elder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.

If the standard still exists, then "that" still references "unit that includes a wolf standard" and everything works - as long as the standard bearer is still alive. When that model dies, the unit ceases to be a "unit that includes a wolf standard" and cannot benefit from the second sentence of the ability.

Grey elder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.

Ahhh, I see Grey!

10 man Grey Hunter unit with wolf standard

is not the same as

10 man Grey Hunter unit that has used wolf standard

When the second sentence references, "that" unit, they cannot possibly reference the same unit that contains a wolf standard because one has been used and one has not been used. So when the second sentence references "that" unit, they are referencing one that has called upon the power of the wolf versus one that has not.

Did I get it that time?

kirsanth wrote:Gotcha, then I understand.

I still disagree, however.

That unit cannot be a unit capable of calling upon the Wolf Spirit, because the unit with the standard is no longer capable of summoning the Wolf Spirit by the time the assault phase occurs.

Editing for silly words.

But it's possible because the Wolf SPirit can be summoned before combat, it can be summoned at any time in the game. Also the bearer dosn't need to be around the whole time for the summoning as it is a Simultaneous action. Once you Summon it , pop, it's up for good , and then once You say it's summoned you no longer need the totem for the Wolf Spirit re-roll effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Grey elder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).

Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?

What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.

Ahhh, I see Grey!

10 man Grey Hunter unit with wolf standard

is not the same as

10 man Grey Hunter unit that has used wolf standard

When the second sentence references, "that" unit, they cannot possibly reference the same unit that contains a wolf standard because one has been used and one has not been used. So when the second sentence references "that" unit, they are referencing one that has called upon the power of the wolf versus one that has not.

Did I get it that time?

Yes

Does the phrase "used a wolf standard" or anything like it appear in the rules for the wolf standard?

Are there actually rules for one use items or is it just understood common sense english? (Asking because I can't remember, not trying to be inflammatory)

No, they have the item the whole game, they can use its ability once.

It is the same item after it is used, just like a combi-weapon.

Well GW in their infinite wisdom gave us one of their fluff driven devices as rules,

Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

The wolf standard is used by, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf". We have no other way given to use the wolf standard. We are told that they can only, "call upon the spirit of the wolf" once per game. That gives us the limitation of how many times you can, "call upon the spirit of the wolf." The second sentence then goes on to tell us exactly what, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf" does.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.

And yet, if a Sanquinary Priest is killed prior to his unit making attacks on the turn they charge, his former unit does not benefit from Furious Charge.

DarknessEternal wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.

And yet, if a Sanquinary Priest is killed prior to his unit making attacks on the turn they charge, his former unit does not benefit from Furious Charge.

Already addressed.

Sang Priest has an always on, "bubble effect". Wolf Standard is activated.

Brother Ramses wrote:
I said it was not part of my argument, but DR kept trying to reference Hunter Killer missiles that are no longer present for weapon destroyed results after they have been fired.

I have not referenced Hunter Killer missiles in this thread at all...

I'm with nos and dr on this one.

DeathReaper wrote:Well, for vheicles I found this FaQ, not sure why it would work any differently for other units:


Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule

From 40k FAQ Here

My bad DR, this is what you referenced.

GW have consistently ruled that you must have X available when you make use of the ability X provides in order to benefit from it.

Frag Launchers is an "activated" ability (not one use, but that isnt relevant) that you lose if the vehicle is destroyed in tyhe same turn you have disembarked from it, because of the FAQ

Attempting to claim that another activated ability ISNT lost if, when you want to use it, the ability - granting model isnt around, flies in the face of the FAQ.

Frag Assault Launchers:

The front of the Land Raider Crusader is studded with explosive charges designed to hurl shrapnel at the enemy as the troops inside charge out. Any unit that charges into close combat on the same turn as it disembarks from the Crusader counts as having frag grenades.

Absolutely NOTHING like a wolf standard. It is active at all times whose effect takes place the same turn when a unit charges from a Crusader. You do not activate it like the wolf standard at all.

Brother Ramses wrote:Well GW in their infinite wisdom gave us one of their fluff driven devices as rules,

Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

The wolf standard is used by, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf". We have no other way given to use the wolf standard. We are told that they can only, "call upon the spirit of the wolf" once per game. That gives us the limitation of how many times you can, "call upon the spirit of the wolf." The second sentence then goes on to tell us exactly what, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf" does.

So if they lose the standard they can't reroll 1's makes perfect sense to me.