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so let me see if i have this right..... games workshop has no clear definition for you guys as in too say "look at me im an example of lash" but inat does which is used by most major gts in north america and you still choose to ignore the exact inat wording? wich is almost always tournament binding (except for 'ard boyz), and instead choose to bicker over an obvious attempt to bend the rules. As a lash player i believe you cannot do that. its treated as a shooting attack with no to hit or wound and your unit must fire at the same target. My doom sirens tell me they want it so bad but my heart tells me it isnt meant to be anyways. sorry guys. its already the sickest power in the game, what do you want?

I can think of another example that can better explain why lash does not prevent shooting:

If you cast doom on a unit with a farseer, the squad he is in can still fire at a different target.

This is the exact same thing. Mind war would have worked the exact same way if not for the Eldar FAQ specifically declaring Mind war a psychic shooting attack.

pinksockpuppet wrote:so let me see if i have this right..... games workshop has no clear definition for you guys as in too say "look at me im an example of lash" but inat does which is used by most major gts in north america and you still choose to ignore the exact inat wording? wich is almost always tournament binding (except for 'ard boyz), and instead choose to bicker over an obvious attempt to bend the rules. As a lash player i believe you cannot do that. its treated as a shooting attack with no to hit or wound and your unit must fire at the same target. My doom sirens tell me they want it so bad but my heart tells me it isnt meant to be anyways. sorry guys. its already the sickest power in the game, what do you want?

Firstly the INAT FAQ has no place in YMDC, this was noted on Pg:1

Secondly GW FAQ'd what a PSA is and surely Lash is not one.

Last but not least, I still believe it works out as I said. Just how it reads to me.

Fearspect wrote:I can think of another example that can better explain why lash does not prevent shooting:

If you cast doom on a unit with a farseer, the squad he is in can still fire at a different target.

This is the exact same thing. Mind war would have worked the exact same way if not for the Eldar FAQ specifically declaring Mind war a psychic shooting attack.

What is the exact entry for Doom? I just checked my closet and cannot find my Eldar codex and now think I might have left it at the last store I was in a tournament.

"The Farseer searches for the threads of destiny that spells the destruction of an enemy and draws it into being. The Farseer can target any non-vehicle unit within 24". All hits caused upon that unit gain a re-roll to wound until the start of the next Eldar turn."

-Codex: Eldar, p. 28

Doesnt Doom happen at the beginning of the turn though?

I was going to use Doom as an example, but the OP's question relies on the target squad being in a different position after Lash than it was before it; Doom requires no such movement, and therefore the thread's question doesn't come into it, as the squad will still be in the same place.

Grakmar wrote:Agreed with nos and Grey Templar.

From the FAQ:
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile and it doesn't specifically state it is a PSA. Ergo, it isn't a PSA and is just a psychic power that is used during the shooting phase and prevents the psyker from shooting.

I have to agree with old mate here (and through him nos n co.). He's provided a perfectly good, clear explanation, with a GW FAQ (which is legit in this forum, unlike INAT).

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile. It doesn't matter that you can't fire your bolt pistol when you use it. That doesn't come into it at all. Since it is not a Psychic Shooting Attack, it does not have to be at the same time as the unit, because it is not a shooting attack, no matter if you have to sacrifice your bolt pistol shooting attack, or your left leg.

P.S. God bless Dakka for providing endless procrastination from uni assignments

Avatar 720 wrote:I was going to use Doom as an example, but the OP's question relies on the target squad being in a different position after Lash than it was before it; Doom requires no such movement, and therefore the thread's question doesn't come into it, as the squad will still be in the same place.

I understand, but I hope that my example, coupled with the known fact that Lash is not a PSA shows that a non-PSA can target a different enemy than the rest of the unit. Using it just prevents you from being able to shoot, just like Turboboosting restricts a jetseer from casting powers, or flat out on a transport prevents a disembark. They aren't necessarily related, it's just a restriction placed by your action.

Targeting a different squad isn't the trouble here, it's the fact that LoS is used "instead of firing another ranged weapon", and people are trying to use something that is implied ("instead of another ranged weapon"), as a solid rule to say that lash is a ranged weapon, and must be resolved at the same time as the squad's shooting, as opposed to before or after it.

Well, several others already covered that quite completely, and there were still arguments, so I figured I'd try a different angle.

"instead of another ranged weapon"
to me implies done in place of shooting other said ranged weapon

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:"instead of another ranged weapon"
to me implies done in place of shooting other said ranged weapon

I've highlighted the important bit.

It is implied, but it is never specifically stated. There is also the issue of Daemon Princes with Lash, who have no 'other ranged weapon', does that mean they cannot use LoS?

Can a Gunless Dreadnought run?

Pg 16 of the BRB under 'Run!':
"(we find that this is a popular choice for units that have no ranged weaponry or no target!)"

Yes, they can.

at times like this I like to quote myself,

"In the Grimdarkness of YMDC, there is no interperation, no extrapolation, no implication, there is only RAW" !!!

Love it GT

mind if i put it in my sig?

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

motyak wrote:Love it GT

mind if i put it in my sig?

Go ahead

Sorry for a minor threadjack: If Lash is not a PSA, does that mean that Ahriman can cast it multiple times?

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing. It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one. Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase". Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires? No. Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase". There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

I fail to see what your point is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baragash wrote:Sorry for a minor threadjack: If Lash is not a PSA, does that mean that Ahriman can cast it multiple times?

No, because he doesn't have access to the Lash of Submission power.

There is no order of priority because Lash is a psychic power, not a PSA. It happens in the shooting phase but can be before or after actually shooting. So you can lash an opponent within range of the guns, or after shooting the crap out of the opponent lash him further away.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, you can assault instead of shooting... that doesn't mean it happens at the same time.

Just because you may use Lash instead of firing doesn't mean that they happen at the same time.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

I'm no expert here, but perhaps time for some common sense, maybe?

I've read this thread with some interest, as I'm an avid hater of the old LoS. Causes me no end of issues, but still...
Personally, having read all the evidence put forward, I would have to say that you can use LoS at any time.

I see it this way:
The rule is written in a way that says you can only hold one thing in your given hand at any one time, which I am inclined to believe (I cant hold a dremel and a drill at the same time if I dont want to lose a finger somewhere). The guy holding the Lash can only use one weapon in the shooting phase. I am also aware that this is applying real world logic to a game rule, but this appies across the game in terms of models having to choose one or the other weapon.

Yes, the model is in a unit, and yes it trades the 'ranged weapon' for LoS, but no it is not a PSA.

The way I see it, they can use it anytime before or after the shooting unit does theirs.

As much as I'd like to castrate LoS, it is not a shooting weapon or shooting psychic weapon.
It does not have a profile like the FAQ states, and the rule is only stating that he swaps his 'ranged weapon' for LoS.

It is not simultaneous.

Since Lash is not a PSA is can be used against any squad, including one that the rest of the squad is not shooting at. It simply means that if the sorcerer uses this ability then he will not be able to shoot with the rest of the squad.

Avatar 720 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing.

Please elaborate since that's the basis of your argument and it makes no sense. The Lash rule is clear, instead of using a ranged weapon the psycker can use the power. So, where and when the range weapon is used the psyker and substitute the use of Lash.

It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one.

Lash not being is PSA is moot. The fact the act of using Lash is a substitute for the act of shooting limits the use of the power to when shooting can be done. If the psyker cannot shoot he cannot use Lash.

Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

How a model is depicted has no baring on the rules.

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase".

Ah, there is a restriction, the use of Lash is used instead of shooting. As noted above, the act of shooting is replace with the act of using Lash. Substituting the shooting ac doesn't automatically grant cart blanche use of Lash.

Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires?

YES! Again, the act of using Lash substitutes the act of shooting thus limiting the use to when the model shoots.

Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase".

Finish the sentence: The power is used in the Shooting phase replacing shooting with Lash.

There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:[
Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

I would like to point out lash is not a shooting attack and therefore you are being inconsistent with saying it should follow rules for shooting (anyone else enjoying people saying this?). lash should be treated as a 'normal' psychic power that just happens to be used in the shooting phase.


However since GW doesn't keep up to date FAQ's (GW if you are reading this please hire me to do it) simple fix of errata saying 'psycher may not shoot a ranged weapon in the same turn as he uses los' (NB this is what it basically what it says now since it is not a psa and there is no precedence saying psychic powers which are not psa used in the shooting phase must be used when the model's unit fires, people please feel free to list these, I don't have my massive collection of codexes on me).

Ah chaos how i love you and your psychers especially the ones who can use the same power twice (non psa) and can't at the same time


also anyone know how the hell you spell psycher?

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing.

Please elaborate since that's the basis of your argument and it makes no sense. The Lash rule is clear, instead of using a ranged weapon the psycker can use the power. So, where and when the range weapon is used the psyker and substitute the use of Lash.

It makes perfect sense. If you replace wheels with anti-grav engines, are they still wheels because that's what they replaced? Yes, the rule is clear, he can use the lash instead of using a ranged weapon, but that does not make the lash a ranged weapon, this is what you are failing to comprehend and failing to disprove. Your final sentence makes no sense, please rewrite it.

It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one.

Lash not being is PSA is moot. The fact the act of using Lash is a substitute for the act of shooting limits the use of the power to when shooting can be done. If the psyker cannot shoot he cannot use Lash.

Please provide solid ruling for this view; "instead of firing another ranged weapon" does not give any sort of specific limit, all it does is imply. If it was limited to when shooting would be carried out, then it would become a shooting weapon, and therefore a PSA, which it is not, thus the point is far from moot.

Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

How a model is depicted has no baring on the rules.

I disagree, please answer the question. Using your logic, if a Prince has the Lash of Submission power, and it requires the act of shooting to be given up before it can be used, then the Prince cannot cast it, correct?

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase".

Ah, there is a restriction, the use of Lash is used instead of shooting. As noted above, the act of shooting is replace with the act of using Lash. Substituting the shooting ac doesn't automatically grant cart blanche use of Lash.

That is not a restriction of the use of lash, unless you would like to go back to the Daemon Prince example that you seem intent upon ignoring. The only specific restriction of the lash is its use in the shooting phase.

Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires?

YES! Again, the act of using Lash substitutes the act of shooting thus limiting the use to when the model shoots.

Where? Please point out where it says "Lash of Submission must be used at the same time any accompanying unit shoots." Again, Lash does not inherit the type of ability it is replacing; otherwise it would say Lash of Submission is a ranged weapon, which it does not.

Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase".

Finish the sentence: The power is used in the Shooting phase replacing shooting with Lash.

Don't try and avoid the question, "in the shooting phase" is all that is required, "instead of firing another ranged weapon" does not change the fact that it is used in the shooting phase, and does not give a specific point in it.

There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

Page 15 only applies to shooting, which would make Lash a PSA, which it is not; once again, this 'moot' point pops up. If, by using lash, he is in the act of shooting, then that makes lash a shooting attack, which it is not, and therefore is not limited to having to use it with the rest of the squad, since he is not firing a weapon.

Is there any chance of replying without picking the paragraph apart sentence by sentence? It stretches the page and makes replying a hassle.

What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

TGA - replacing firing a weapon does not mean you must then use that power at the same time as you would have shot. That is an entirely made up restriction that does not exist.