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The rules say it can be used instead of another ranged weapon ranged weapon right, OK, think of this, I could stab you with this fork later to kill you, but instead I will stab you with this knife now.

Out of context I know, but still a valid argument.

Also, It states the it can be used instead of a ranged weapon, it does not say it has to be used while the squad is firing their guns.

curtis wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

Actually, 'only once' for Ahriman would be incorrect thanks to the CSM FAQ:

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three
times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be
used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple
times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is
true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in
using this power more than once per turn!

Avatar 720 wrote:

curtis wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

Actually, 'only once' for Ahriman would be incorrect thanks to the CSM FAQ:

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three
times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be
used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple
times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is
true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in
using this power more than once per turn!

Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows
it.

And then the convoluted mess begins all depending on how you read them together, since the 40k rule book FAQ is clarifying something instead of giving out a new rule (should be errata/ amendment if indeed it is a new rule) it all boils down to out of date FAQs. one 'no' arguement is basically now that the rule book faq has changed how double tapping works the big cheese himself has no rule allowing him to double tap at all except a FAQ which reiterated you can't double tap PSAs in accordance with the rule book which now includes you can't double tap ever. (note I have no idea when no double tapping ever was wrote I don't have every version out there but if it was before the chaos one they really suck at consistency, why can he break one rule and not the other).

Also don't you hate it that GW doesn't think that warptime could not be successfully cast you know 11 or 12 pychic hood, runic weapon ect?

in fact the ahriman question in the FAQ should really apply to all tzeentch sorcerers since it indirectly allows them to double tap non PSA powers. ah tzeentch i wonder if you have a hand in this...

Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Not quite. The sorceror still ahs the weapons, but is using something else. A combi-weapon would be more appropriate, but niot much.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

Leo actually has a point some how *straches head* indeed a ccw which replaces a ranged weapon should not be treated as a ranged weapon just as a 'normal' psychic power cast in the shooting phase should not be treated as a psa, thanks to the new faq update the instead of another weapon is the wrong wording and should be erattaed to 'a psyker who uses lash of submission can not use a ranged weapon in the same turn'

Sorry for another threadjack, but this seems the place. If a Daemon Prince uses LoS on a unit, can he assault a DIFFERENT unit in the assault phase?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

But is does not equate with your example because a thunderhammer is not, "another ranged weapon". Lash is used, "instead of another ranged weapon". That indicates that Lash is a ranged weapon. You cannot replace "another ranged weapon" unless you already using a ranged weapon.

Instead of using a machine gun, I am going to use a javelin.

Not the same, but both ranged weapons.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

But is does not equate with your example because a thunderhammer is not, "another ranged weapon". Lash is used, "instead of another ranged weapon". That indicates that Lash is a ranged weapon. You cannot replace "another ranged weapon" unless you already using a ranged weapon.

Instead of using a machine gun, I am going to use a javelin.

Not the same, but both ranged weapons.

Then we hit the Daemon Prince issue of him having no ranged weapon to replace, and the fact that if lash does become a ranged weapon, then it is performing a shooting attack when used, but since Lash isn't a PSA...

Or in other words you just have ot make up a whole host of rules.

Or, you avoid the implication (after all, theyve told us it isnt a PSA, so it isnt any form of Psychic Shooting attack) and treat it as is.

Much, much easier all round.

Not being well steeped in Chaos Marine rules, but looking at it from a general game perspective, let me ask a few questions:

Generally, can a unit with a psyker (sorcerer, magic genie, whatever) cast his psychic abilities on one target and have the rest of his unit shoot at a different target (or none at all)? If they can target different units, do they have to use their psyker's ability and their shooting attacks at the same time?

Specifically, does the Lash SAY it is a shooting attack (like a Weirdboy's Frazzle and Zzap)? Can it still be used (as per pg 50, Psychic Shooting Attacks) if the psyker has no line of sight on the target, is locked in combat, or ran during the shooting phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does Lash say it replaces a ranged attack?

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Not being well steeped in Chaos Marine rules, but looking at it from a general game perspective, let me ask a few questions:

Generally, can a unit with a psyker (sorcerer, magic genie, whatever) cast his psychic abilities on one target and have the rest of his unit shoot at a different target (or none at all)? If they can target different units, do they have to use their psyker's ability and their shooting attacks at the same time?

Specifically, does the Lash SAY it is a shooting attack (like a Weirdboy's Frazzle and Zzap)? Can it still be used (as per pg 50, Psychic Shooting Attacks) if the psyker has no line of sight on the target, is locked in combat, or ran during the shooting phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does Lash say it replaces a ranged attack?

Yes, if the power is not a psychic shooting attack. No, not unless specified or if it is a PSA.

No, the GW FAQ states that Lash is not a PSA. It requires LoS, but since it is not a PSA, there is no restriction on use during combat or running.

Lash is used instead of using another ranged weapon, however there are certain faults in the logic that is being used to argue that "Instead of another ranged weapon = Lash is a ranged weapon and the model must forfeit its usual shooting in order to use it", namely the fact that if it was a ranged weapon, its use would be counted as a shooting attack, which is is stated to not be, and the fact that if it requires a ranged weapon to replace, then a Daemon Prince would not be able to use it.

As Nos said, the only rules that are being provided to back-up the claim that lash is a ranged weapon are quite simply made up.

It seems simple to me, but i'll toss this out there and hope it helps those of you on the fence, or willing to change opinions.

The Sorcerer has the option to use Lash or shoot. Now this isn't because Lash is a PSA, it's simply that it is a ranged ability that requires focus and prevents him from shooting with his squad. Because of this his squad can still shoot at a unit of their choosing while he concentrates on controlling the enemy and moving them into a position of his choosing. This being said it explains why the sorcerer can still lash other units while tied up in CC. The rest of his squad is too busy fighting to shoot, but he can still utilize his psychic power to control his enemies.

I understand that some people might have a problem with this due to the first sentence of Lash "may use this power during the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon". This would imply it as a PSA and would be the only way you could justify that it has to be used in unison with his squad shooting. The problem is that Lash does not count as a PSA due to the FAQ. That being covered I don't see how the discussion continues, however if you have justification to refute this point then I would appreciate to see your logic behind it (preferably clear cut and supported through rules.)

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Interesting. So lash can be used...

If he is in a rhino and the rhino moves more than 6", then he can still use lash.

If the rhino pops smoke, then he can still use lash.

If the rhino is stunned or shaken, then he can still use lash without disembarking.

I guess if you can pop smoke and use lash, than

You can move 12" and lash
or Even lash while locked in CC

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I guess if you can pop smoke and use lash, than

You can move 12" and lash
or Even lash while locked in CC

I would suppose as long as you didn't target the unit you were locked in cc with...

Well I don't believe there is anything against targetting them, just that moving them as normal wouldn't exactly happen (lol)

Not to mention that lash can be used if you run. That might have been mentioned already...

I do enjoy the sarcasm

Sadly the RAW provides nothing to counter any of the points jamesdean or weasel provided. Regular psychic powers are not constrained by many of the rules that limit shooting abilities.

Now that being said, I would like to give my own personal opinion (based on fluff and what I perceive as common sense) on the statements. These are obviously personal views and in no way are validated for the purposes of the game.

"If he is in a rhino and the rhino moves more than 6", then he can still use lash."

From how I have always looked at it, the reason passengers cannot fire from a vehicle moving more then 6" is because at higher speeds it would become difficult and dangerous to expose yourself (even impossible due to the tactical driving), therefore the Sorcerer wouldld NOT be able to use Lash since he's unable to look out from the top hatch and draw a LoS to a target.

"If the rhino pops smoke, then he can still use lash."

Once again, to obscure a vehicle with smoke you would then eliminate the Sorcerer's ability to see anything and would prevent him from drawing LoS.

"If the rhino is stunned or shaken, then he can still use lash without disembarking."

The passengers are shaken around (head aches ahoy!) and unable to steady themselves to get up top and do anything.

Not to mention that lash can be used if you run. That might have been mentioned already...

This one is actually tough for me. Originally I wanted to say "Yeah of course you can lash and run or run and lash", but then I thought about this. First off it's not all that fair to be able to move an additional 1" to 6" in order to get LoS to a target, but since Lash never specifies when it has to be used during the shooting phase I could see how this argument could be valid. At the same time I also think that if the Sorcerer is using this ability instead of shooting a weapon or firing a PSA then the ability must require a great deal of focus in order to use. That being said if the Sorcerer is busy running for his life with his buddies then he probably isn't reaching his tendrils into the souls of his enemies and walking them about as he wishes.

That all said, since Lash isn't a PSA all of my opinions are just...opinions. I would never expect to be able to out debate someone by using fluff and logic against RAW. I was genuinely sincere in my last post about wanting someone to find a rule to limit the use of Lash (INAT obviously is out of the question). Sadly I cannot and therefore am supporting its diversity. Good luck and good gaming!

Let's set some things straight:

* Lash is NOT a PSA. I never suggested it and it's not germane to the discussion. Just because it's not a PSA doesn't mean the use isn't restricted.
* Analogizes regarding replacing the psyker's weapon aren't not relevant. The use of Lash doesn't replace the weapon, the USE of Lash replaces the USE of the weapon. Replacing a range weapon with a CCW weapon doesn't make the CCW a range weapon instead, the act of firing is replaced with the act of assaulting.

In general, the only time a model can shoot is during the Shooting phase when the accompanying unit shoots (page 15, BRB). The rules also state a unit must complete all shooting before another unit can shoot. Thus, a player cannot alternate shooting between several units, one unit shoots then the next then the next and so on.

The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot.

A very clear example of one action replacing another is Running. Running replaces the act of shooting, just as Lash. This substitution doesn't absolve the player from having to resolve the running action before moving on to another unit. In other words, a player cannot simultaneously Run multiple units, each unit must complete the Run action before moving on to the next unit.

Lash works in a similar manner, only at the model level instead of the unit level. When the unit shoots, the psyker can substitute using his ranged weapon with using Lash.

The notion that Lash can be used anytime during the Shooting phase implies a model from one unit can shoot (the act being replaced) prior to the rest of the unit, in fact, prior to other units firing. Futher, this notion suggests multiple models from different units can shoot (the act being replaced) prior to the accompanying units thus having multiple units partially shooting Nothing in the rules suggests any of this as being valid.

So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Which is why they need a better FAQ or a new codex

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Run replaces shooting attack and is restricted by shooting rules, but is not a PSA.

As I noted above, Lash not being a PSA is moot. Lash doesn't have a weapon profile nor the limiting rules relegating to a PSA. Lash has it's own set of rules (like Running) that replaces the act of shooting. It's still bound by the general shooting rules related to the act of shooting, however (just like Running).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Run replaces shooting attack and is restricted by shooting rules, but is not a PSA.

As I noted above, Lash not being a PSA is moot. Lash doesn't have a weapon profile nor the limiting rules relegating to a PSA. Lash has it's own set of rules (like Running) that replaces the act of shooting. It's still bound by the general shooting rules related to the act of shooting, however (just like Running).

Except Running isn't a psychic power, so comparing the two doesn't really work.

And Lash not being a PSA is *not* moot. Because it isn't a PSA, it's not treated like a shooting attack. Meaning it's not restricted by the same things that restrict shooting.

GreyChaos wrote:It seems simple to me, but i'll toss this out there and hope it helps those of you on the fence, or willing to change opinions.

The Sorcerer has the option to use Lash or shoot. Now this isn't because Lash is a PSA, it's simply that it is a ranged ability that requires focus and prevents him from shooting with his squad. Because of this his squad can still shoot at a unit of their choosing while he concentrates on controlling the enemy and moving them into a position of his choosing. This being said it explains why the sorcerer can still lash other units while tied up in CC. The rest of his squad is too busy fighting to shoot, but he can still utilize his psychic power to control his enemies.

I understand that some people might have a problem with this due to the first sentence of Lash "may use this power during the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon". This would imply it as a PSA and would be the only way you could justify that it has to be used in unison with his squad shooting. The problem is that Lash does not count as a PSA due to the FAQ. That being covered I don't see how the discussion continues, however if you have justification to refute this point then I would appreciate to see your logic behind it (preferably clear cut and supported through rules.)

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Quoted for truth... This is some logic.

Why is it that nobody is disproved the above statement?

"The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot. "

You see that "Meaning" in the middle? That is your unsupported leap based off an implied but never stated part of the Lash power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot. "

You see that "Meaning" in the middle? That is your unsupported leap based off an implied but never stated part of the Lash power.

What does "...instead of using another range weapon" mean to you? Using the power Lash is substituted for using a range weapon. No leap, no implication. It's right there on page 88 of the codex.

One part ("...instead of using another ranged weapon.") is, the other part (your interpretation of its meaning) is not.

What it means to us is unimportant, since we do not create the rules, and there are currently no rules to support your argument; or if there are, then you have not stated them.