Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This happened on the table next to me yesterday night and there is no clear answer in the rule books that I could find, looking to see other schools of though. Guy used Lash and pulled an enemy into a clump and dropped a template on them. Now the sorcerer using it was in the same unit with the noise marine that carried the template weapon. So the argument was "you drop the template at the same time you use the ability so the guys aren't there yet" vs "I use the lash and resolve the power then do my actual shooting attacks because lash although used in the shooting phase instead of a gun isn't actually an attack, no to hit roll or cover saves ect." I can see the arguement on both sides especially as Tau networked markerlights are similar in that they let the unit they are attached to benefit from them so they have to fire first before the rest of the unit to be useable.

The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

This right here.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

Incorrect. Lash is used at any time during the shooting phase, and you cannot fire a weapon while using it. Absolutely nothing in the rules for Lash requires it to be resolved at the same time as the squads shooting.

It is not a PSA. It has no language defining the speciic time you apply it, so the use the player made of Lash was absolutely correct.

Nos has it.

You can actually lash a seperate unit from what your unit is firing at.


You could lash a unit and assault a different one(useful for that squad of assault terminators that is a little too close to your daemon prince who is going to rip open that squad of Tactical marines.

Agreed with nos and Grey Templar.

From the FAQ:
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile and it doesn't specifically state it is a PSA. Ergo, it isn't a PSA and is just a psychic power that is used during the shooting phase and prevents the psyker from shooting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

Incorrect. Lash is used at any time during the shooting phase, and you cannot fire a weapon while using it. Absolutely nothing in the rules for Lash requires it to be resolved at the same time as the squads shooting.

It is not a PSA. It has no language defining the speciic time you apply it, so the use the player made of Lash was absolutely correct.

No it isn't a PSA but it is used "instead of using another ranged weapon." (Chaos Space Marine Codex, page 88) The only permissible time a ranged weapon is used is when the unit is firing. Granted, the psyker can target a different unit then the one firing upon, but it happens as the same time the rest of the unit is firing. In the OP, the sorcerer was part of the same unit thus all shooting is happening simultaneously, therefor the noise marines template would not be in range until AFTER the unit has shot.

TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

Before dismissing my argument outright at least provide prove your argument is valid or at least address where you think my logic is flawed. I can make just as sweeping argument about your claim.

I've already proven my argument is valid: instead of firing a weapon I am using the power. This does not, at any point, require that I use it the same time that other members of my squad fire their weapons.

Your claim is unsubstantiated in the rules, as you are creating a rule that any "instead of using a weapon" effect must be carried out with the rest of the unit shooting their weapon - it doesnt exist in the rules.

You could also see the numerous other threads on this

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

How novel that you change yet another rule to suit your argument. The actual rule is,

Lash is used instead of firing another ranged weapon in the shooting phase.

The rule implies that instead of firing another ranged weapon, you will be firing a different ranged weapon. That is what prevents you from using a ranged weapon that turn, not your little half-truth rules quote.

While the new FAQ removes any doubt that Lash might be a PSA, that does not remove the rules entry above that points out that it is still considered a ranged weapon. It just happens to be a ranged weapon that is not a psychic shooting attack.

And Lash is not used whenever you would wish to do so. You are told that you specifically use which is instead of using another ranged weapon. So when a Slaanesh Sorcerer, with a bolt pistol and force weapon chooses to use Lash, he will be doing it instead of firing his bolt pistol. When does he use his bolt pistol? When the rest of the unit uses their ranged weapons.

Brother Ramses wrote:
How novel that you change yet another rule to suit your argument. The actual rule is,

How "novel" that you'd take something out of context and pretend its something that it isnt.

That wasnt a rules quote. Do you know how you tell? The fact I never claimed it was. Thats one clue. Its called "discussing the point", something everyone here has managed to do before you stepped in.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Lash is used instead of firing another ranged weapon in the shooting phase.

The rule implies that instead of firing another ranged weapon, you will be firing a different ranged weapon.

Please, find rules for a Psychic power ranged weapon that isnt a PSA. What, you cant find one? Youre relying on implication only to make up a position out of thin air? Say it isnt so!

Brother Ramses wrote: That is what prevents you from using a ranged weapon that turn, not your little half-truth rules quote.

See above. apparently you cant tell you difference between a quote and a discussion about a rule. And again, with the ad hominems - you just cant help yourself....

Brother Ramses wrote:While the new FAQ removes any doubt that Lash might be a PSA, that does not remove the rules entry above that points out that it is still considered a ranged weapon. It just happens to be a ranged weapon that is not a psychic shooting attack.

No, it implies it is a ranged weapon. It isnt actually one, because it doesnt follow the rules for any ranged weapon in any book, ever. If you want to break with tradition and use real rules, please find one stating it is a ranged psychic weapon that isnt a PSA, and find some rules for it. If youre saying its a weapon, you must find:

Range. AP. Strength (or substitute rules, such as poison), and type / number of shots. For example if we use your made up rules then you have NO idea if it can be used on the move or not - its not Assault like a PSA, because it isnt a PSA.

Of course the *lack* of the above is what makes it not a PSA, but good luck finding some real rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:And Lash is not used whenever you would wish to do so.

I didnt say that. I just said it was used during the shooting phase

Brother Ramses wrote: You are told that you specifically use which is instead of using another ranged weapon. So when a Slaanesh Sorcerer, with a bolt pistol and force weapon chooses to use Lash, he will be doing it instead of firing his bolt pistol. When does he use his bolt pistol? When the rest of the unit uses their ranged weapons.

Except he isnt firing a ranged weapon, so isnt constrained by the requirement to fire with the rest of the unit, which is a shooting restriction.

So, after your inability to tell the difference between a real quote and discussion about a rule, your made up rules, made up ranged weapon rule that doesnt exist anywhere, you have come up with a restriction that doesnt exist in actual rules. Or, in other words, you dont have an actual argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

Note the emboldened text above Nos. Being disingenuous about what you present makes your argument invalid. Choosing to conveniently leave out the RAW in your argument to only support your flawed argument is the problem with what you post.

And second emboldened part is you saying that Lash can be used whenever you would wish to do so, despite it being used instead of ANOTHER ranged weapon.

And I just pointed out a ranged attack that is not a PSA, aka Lash. The FAQ does not define it as a PSA, but the rule for Lash defines it as being a ranged weapon in the implication that it is used instead of ANOTHER ranged weapon. Your own argument even defines it as using a ranged weapon because it prevents you from using another ranged weapon. Thanks.

One of us is using the rulebook here and one of us is trying to rewrite the rulebook. You can guess which one you fall under.

Conveniently leave out the RAW?

The rules for lash have been posted, and are widely available. When having an intelligent conversation about a rule it is quite useful to occasionally not robotically parrot the same words over and over and over again.

Your problem is you cant tell you difference between someone quoting a rule, when precision IS important, and when someone is conversing about a rule, when it is less so.

You even say it yourself - it implies it is a type of ranged weapon - but it isnt actually one. Same as the rules for vehicle movement imply they override the normal infantry movement rules, but they dont actually do so.

I'm not trying to rewrite the rulebook, but have an intelligent debate. Well done for stopping that from occuring.

I believe nosferatu1001 is correct, though he doesn't need to be indirectly insulting or aggressive about it. There isn't any need to call people unintelligent, because that is what you were doing, sneakily. It is just a game.

Deadshot wrote:I believe nosferatu1001 is correct, though he doesn't need to be indirectly insulting or aggressive about it. There isn't any need to call people unintelligent, because that is what you were doing, sneakily. It is just a game.

The problem is BR is notorious for turning every rule argument into a flame war and some of us are more than tired of it. Seriously. Look at any of his comments in any YMDC thread.

But back to the point at hand, yes Nos is right on this one. Lash is just one of those holdover awkard rules from 4th edition that will be fixed sooner than later.

I hope they fix it rather than "fix it".* For CSM sake.

*See 5th ed Codex Tyranids to see what I mean.

Deadshot wrote:*See 5th ed Codex Tyranids to see what I mean.

:(

Don't get me wrong, 5th ed is a good era for my own nids, but that is a sentence everyone here undersatnds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I've already proven my argument is valid: instead of firing a weapon I am using the power. This does not, at any point, require that I use it the same time that other members of my squad fire their weapons.

How does "...instead of using another range weapon" translate into using the power anytime in the Shooting phase? The rule is instead of shooting the psyker can use Lash. It DOESN'T say the power can be used at ANYTIME in the Shooting phase and that once used the psyker is not permitted to shoot.

It also does not say that it is used at the same time as the squad firing.

Even if it did, you can choose any order in which to resolve your shots. Simply resolve lash first and then the rest.

Please be mindful that common courtesy is not only suggested but actually required by DakkaDakka rules. If you are not sure whether something you want to post is impolite or not, please PM me and refrain from posting until after you receive a reply from me. Otherwise, as always, your account may be suspended for breaking Rule Number One. Thanks!

omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

pinksockpuppet wrote:omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

The INAT FAQ isn't "legal" to reference in YMDC.

edited to clarify:
From the YMDC Tenets:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs.

pinksockpuppet wrote:omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

See the Tenets of the forum, specifically number 2. INAT is NOT an official FAQ

and even if the INAT was considered official, it would be suspect because the current INAT ruling was made before the current GW BRB FAQ and as such would likely be invalid considering GWs current definition of PSAs.

I think the next INAT update will do a 180 on their explaination of Lash.

Deadshot wrote:It also does not say that it is used at the same time as the squad firing.

It says it replaces the use of another ranged weapon. A ranged weapon is only used when the UNIT fires, so, yes, it does state the power is used at the same time the rest of the squad fires.

Even if it did, you can choose any order in which to resolve your shots. Simply resolve lash first and then the rest.

Actually, no. Look at the steps on page 15 of the BRB. Range is checked prior to shots fired. Thus, you check the range for Lash AND range for the weapons at the same time.

Yes. But I choose to resolve effects/damage in any order.

I fire 5 bolters and Lascannon at targte. Lascannon and 3 bolters hit. I could resolve-

Lascannon, Bolter, bolter, bolter
Bolter, LC, Bolter, Bolter.
Bolter, Bolter, LC, Bolter
Bolter, Bolter, Bolter, LC.

Simply replace LC with Lash and follow version 1.

Deadshot wrote:Yes. But I choose to resolve effects/damage in any order.

I fire 5 bolters and Lascannon at targte. Lascannon and 3 bolters hit. I could resolve-

Lascannon, Bolter, bolter, bolter
Bolter, LC, Bolter, Bolter.
Bolter, Bolter, LC, Bolter
Bolter, Bolter, Bolter, LC.

Simply replace LC with Lash and follow version 1.

It's not a matter of the order of resolving the damages (which happens simultaneously, btw, so the order of resolution is immaterial). You check for range of the weapon PRIOR to shooting (page 15 of the BRB for the sequence of steps for a unit to shoot, page 17 details what checking for range entails and the end result of a weapon is out of range). If the weapon is not in range it doesn't fire, thus, you can't Lash THEN check the other weapons for range THEN resolve damage.

However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.