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Bolt shells are only .75 caliber. The models are sculpted in Heroic scale so the rounds look much bigger.

If you actually imagined .75 caliber rounds in a bolter mag you can easily imagine 30 rounds in a sickle mag and 90ish in a drum mag.

Yeah I know. Same way if you picture the Battle cannon as 120mm it can probably fit 40 shells.

You have to be really careful about what conclusions you draw from the artwork, because it is artwork, and there are always possibility for little variations creeping in that can drive you nuts.

I also suspect that you could fit 10 Marines into a Rhino at the scale given before, it would just be a bit crowded and they would have to duck (and it depends on how seating goes in there.) But even if you do scale up its probably going to be crowded - a Rhino really isn't just a big empty metal box - there's going to be other stuff in there (machinery and whatnot) which is going to make it more crowded simply because of how large and bulky Space Marines are drawn. I'm not saying that Power armour really looks like say, what Halo Spartans wear (not even close) but the bulkiness gets exagerrated for effect, the same way the size/bulk gets exaggerated for the weapons.'

Thanks for all the replies so far! I'm going to attempt to build a "fluff" to scale rhino, so I'm guessing from what people know of there isn't really any confirmation of size out there. Guess I'll be best to go with the second picture!

All 40k models are out of scale.

Even on the same model, different items are out of scale, such as overly large weapons and heads.

Melissia wrote:All 40k models are out of scale.

Even on the same model, different items are out of scale, such as overly large weapons and heads.

Yep... which is why I made this post and plan to make a scale model

Then keep in mind it has to be big enough to hold ten standing marines with full equipment including heavy weapons, five side by side.

Ten devasators with four missile launchers / lascannnons / etc can fit in. It's a big vehicle.

But they don't have to be all standing in the battle poses the models are.

they can set their weapons down, sit on the benches and stuff.

insaniak wrote:

monkeyh wrote:... but you're right, there is no way on earth 10 marines would get in a rhino the scale that the models are, by the time you accounted for the engine, gubbins (technical term), and crew you'd be lucky to fit any in!

The engines aren't a problem. According to older fluff, it has 4 small engines mounted in the track units, 2 front and 2 rear (hence the 4 exhausts on the sides) and so they don't get in the way of the passengers.

The only problem with fitting 10 Marines into the current rhino (and I know this because I've actually tried it) is that the roof is about a quarter of an inch too low. The passenger compartment on the current model has enough floorspace (it would be a little cramped, but it's an APC, not a bus) ... it's just not tall enough.

Ah, but is it not tall enough for them to stand in or to sit in?

You do not need to be able to stand in an APC...only hunch/crouch oddly while you get out...

Side Note:
30 round sickle mag of ~20mm would be ridiculous...if you have ever seen a 20mm/25mm ammo crate...that whole box only has 30 rounds in it....even if you disregard the link and packing plastic...

That's with current casings that are fatter then the actual projectile. Bolter casings are the same diameter as the bolt round itself.

you also need to consider that those are super human sized sickle mags.

Kevin949 wrote:

insaniak wrote:The engines aren't a problem. According to older fluff, it has 4 small engines mounted in the track units, 2 front and 2 rear (hence the 4 exhausts on the sides) and so they don't get in the way of the passengers.

The only problem with fitting 10 Marines into the current rhino (and I know this because I've actually tried it) is that the roof is about a quarter of an inch too low. The passenger compartment on the current model has enough floorspace (it would be a little cramped, but it's an APC, not a bus) ... it's just not tall enough.

Ah, but is it not tall enough for them to stand in or to sit in?

Neither works. There are only 4 seats, and they're too high, so the marines have to be bent right over to have head and backpack clearance. Likewise for standing marines... they have to be bent over nearly double in order to fit, as if they bend far enough forwards to just clear their head, the backpack is in the way.

It doesn't have to be much bigger. As I said, just raising the roof a little is all it really needs.

I'd just make the marine less bulky. That way he can lift his arms up above shoulder level and twist and turn and stuff.

monkeyh wrote:
I don't think they've 'made it' as such, it just and old (American M113?) APC which has probably had a load of plywood nailed on and been painted to look like a rhino!

You didn't see the making of series of videos for it then.

It was a British FV-432, not an M-113 (important for a couple of reasons - one of which is that the FV series has a STEEL hull, not Aluminium).
They WELDED bracing and strutwork to it to hold the panels and bulk it up (the panels are steel also, not plywood.).
Then they painted it up in the Blood Ravens scheme and unveiled it at that year's Games Day (alongside the DoW game it was used to publicise).

Real APCs don't sound like monster trucks. They do tend to sound like lawnmowers.

Vehicles in the game are NOT in the same 'scale' as the infantry. If they were, Rhinos would be closer in size to Land Raiders, Land Raiders would be Baneblades, Baneblades would be 4x the size they are and you would see maybe ONE of them on a 6x8 table (or 2-3 smaller vehicles).

Lightcavalier wrote:Side Note: 30 round sickle mag of ~20mm would be ridiculous...if you have ever seen a 20mm/25mm ammo crate...that whole box only has 30 rounds in it....even if you disregard the link and packing plastic...

Meh, I dunno. Saiga shotguns have (amongst other types) a sickle magazine, and the caliber of 12g shells is only 0.5 mm short of bolt size. Its sickle mags can take up to 12 shells, single-stack (not sure if there are some with higher capacity) - given that bolter magazines are staggered, however, I can easily see them taking the 20-30 rounds mentioned in the books, though the 30-round mag is probably more common with the Marines and their extra-armoured and thus slightly larger gun frames.

I wouldn't bet on it adding up (but I wouldn't be surprised if it does either), yet compared to a whole lot of other crazy stuff in 40k I find this to be something where it is rather easy to "suspend disbelief".

(note: the above is referencing GW studio material only, chiefly the 3E rulebook with its bolter cross-section and the Inquisitor RPG)

There used to be an "Incredible Cross-section" of the Rhino and Landraider. They were done by Hans Jenssen and Richard Chasemore IIRC.
They were quite informative and came in the form of posters via White Dwarf.

DeffDred wrote:There used to be an "Incredible Cross-section" of the Rhino and Landraider. They were done by Hans Jenssen and Richard Chasemore IIRC.
They were quite informative and came in the form of posters via White Dwarf.

Do these still exist on the intranets?

Somewheres.

If you image search for Land raider and Rhinos you can find them.

Lightcavalier wrote:You do not need to be able to stand in an APC...only hunch/crouch oddly while you get out...

Side Note:
30 round sickle mag of ~20mm would be ridiculous...if you have ever seen a 20mm/25mm ammo crate...that whole box only has 30 rounds in it....even if you disregard the link and packing plastic...

Godwyn Pattern Boltgun (the standard pattern for Astartes-- others exist, but they're not as common) standard magazines contain 28 shells.

They also weigh 18kg (roughly 40 pounds) WITHOUT ammunition. They're pretty big weapons.

Yep.

Im not saying that a 30 round mag of 20mm rounds is impossible...I just find the idea hilarious...and very 40k at the same time.

Especially after lugging around 25mm ammo...i can only imagine how much 30 20mm rounds + mag would weigh...on top of a 40lb boltgun

This is why boltguns are not given to the IG. The average soldier can't hump it.

Psienesis wrote:This is why boltguns are not given to the IG. The average soldier can't hump it.

As far as I recall, it was more due to maintenance requirements and logistics - bolters are still a wargear option for IG special characters (aren't they? I don't have the 5E 'dex at hand right now). It's only heavy bolters that are just too much for the average person without power armour (yet even there we have exceptions like Ox or Harker). Though it's worth pointing out that one guy of an IG Heavy Weapons team still has to lug it around whereas his partner carries the ammunition + tripod.

This is a Saiga 12g shotgun with a 10-round magazine. Take another such magazine and bind them together (to simulate the staggered bolts) and you essentially have a 20-round bolter mag, which fits neatly for the capacity mentioned in GW's books. I don't see a problem there. The Marine version will simply add ~10 cm of length to it (to achieve a capacity of up to 30 rounds), but since both the weapon as well as the magazine have an armoured shell the shape will remain roughly the same.

Remember that the rounds will be longer than shotgun shells though....the curve would be much more distinct...and combining that with the stagger, prone to jamming.

Lightcavalier wrote:Remember that the rounds will be longer than shotgun shells though....the curve would be much more distinct...and combining that with the stagger, prone to jamming.

Not sure about that - bolt shells seem insanely short, at least in this cool image that came with the 3E rulebook.

Yeah, bolter shells seem surprisingly short in most depictions.

But they ARE prone to jamming, that much is true, at least compared to a lasgun or autogun.

I know what the book rules and all that says...

... but from a realism standpoint, there's a reason that a modern military try to make the gear its soldiers carry as light as possible.

A 20mm round weighs about 3 ounces (on average)... you can't carry terribly many of them, as an infantry soldier, before being basically unable to walk. Certainly not enough to undergo a protracted gun-battle.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, bolter shells seem surprisingly short in most depictions.

But they ARE prone to jamming, that much is true, at least compared to a lasgun or autogun.

Of course they jam more than a lasgun.

Lasguns have nothing to jam! (thay shoot lasers )

Unless they aren't cleaned properly and the contacts burn out.

Psienisis is right...that stuff gets heavy...although I did watch a Sergeant carry the full primary upload of a Coyote/Lav III from one vehicle to another about 200m away.....once he dropped it off he sat down for a while. (150 25mm rounds btw)

Weight indeed seems to be another big (situational) disadvantage, then - in addition to maintenance, reliability, logistics, cost, rarity, ...

Still not a real problem for 40k, though. As far as I understand/interpret it, the bolt weapons carried by people such as Commissars or (noble-born?) Officers are more status symbol than combat weapon, so they probably don't have more than one or at most two spare magazines, whilst simultaneously missing much of the "extra weight" a common trooper would have to lug around. Sisters and Inquisitors on the other hand have power armour, and Marine Scouts have superhuman strength.

Okay, so you also have people like Ox and Harker ... but then again, we also have some insanely strong exceptional humans in our real world, so who knows.

The Rhinos have always seemed a bit small for their capacity ESPECIALLY old rhinos. Did you know by the way, in 2nd ed rules a land raider could transport a dreadnought?.
That said though, militaries are awfully good at cramming people into closed spaces. Have had oh, 12 or fifteen guys with field gear packed in the back of a Dodge pickup. We routinely put 8 in the back of a 113, and looking in the back of an ex Iraqi MT-LB made me feel a bit claustrophobic (wiki says you could put eleven men in there)

You can totally fit 12 people in the back of an MTLB...as long as you are all very good friends.