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Hell, we used to stuff a whole platoon, plus gear, into the back of a deuce-and-a-half.

Brotherjulian wrote: The Rhinos have always seemed a bit small for their capacity ESPECIALLY old rhinos.

I agree, if they want to realisticly fit 10 men that are all >10ft tall in, comfortably, with room for equiptment and ammunition a rhino would have to be at least 25ft long and 12ft high. The models are way to small.

Thankfully, GW Marines are "only" 7 feet tall. The protagonists of certain novels may require a special vehicle that was not originally designed for human colonists, though...

Psienesis wrote:Hell, we used to stuff a whole platoon, plus gear, into the back of a deuce-and-a-half.

Me thinks you weren't all wearing power armor and all carrying heavy Machine guns

Lynata wrote:Thankfully, GW Marines are "only" 7 feet tall. The protagonists of certain novels may require a special vehicle that was not originally designed for human colonists, though...

Are you sure? I thought that was only Grey Knights, since the gravity is so much greater on Titan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I seem to remember there was a member of the gaming industry who, when talking about Space Marine/WH40k, mentioned that they were fifteen feet tall, so perhaps the Rhinos are 18-20 ft tall?

Knock off the shenanigans, DCMs.

A Rhino's size depends primarily on it's species. White Rhinos tend to be the largest species, while the Sumatran Rhino's are the smallest. Typically they range from about 1.5 to 2 meters high to 3 to 4 meters long. I don't think there is a whole lot of literature involving rhinos and including their specific dimensions, especially as it varies from rhino to rhino.

We already had that joke. It's less funny the second time.

Scale is all over the place in 40K. I think things are scaled to table top area, not each other.

Anyone remember the old ork trucks... now those were small. Sadly enough while the new ork trukk is bigger physically, the trukk bed is actually a tiny bit narrower and just a tich longer, so there actually isn't anymore room in it to try and squeeze in those two extra boys. The extra physical size comes from the engine, tires, and driver/gunner.

Hell, in my bit box right now are 5 different sized burst cannons.

bombboy1252 wrote:

monkeyh wrote:back to the OP original question, why do you want to know? Thinking of building a real one by any chance?

That's probably where Soulstorm's budget went.

Considering Relic didn't do soulstorm, unlikely.

(yes, I know it was a joke. No, it wasn't funny.)

Lightcavalier wrote:That engine sounds like a lawn mower instead of an armoured vehicle

I think it is an engine of FV thing, can't remember the series but this Rhino prop was once a cold-war era APC that looks ALOT like American M113 but has idlers.

GW scales are all cartoonish. as well as I don't believe that Lasgun is a big bore rifle but it should have a calibre of .30 (7.62 mm). not even believed that Leman Russ uses naval gun but use 120mm smoothbore cannon (with fin-stabilized shells) instead

FV432, the British equivalent of the M113.

Back on topic, the reason why loyalist vehicles can fit in more SMs than rebel vehicles is because Chaos vehicles are painted black inside while loyalist are white.

Any interior designer will tell you that dark colours make spaces feel smaller.

To all those going on about boltguns being impractical because they weight 40lbs, & this being the reason guardsmen don't get them

1. 40lbs wouldnt be an issue to someone in power armour.

2. Weight is not the reason guard don't get bolters. It's only astartes bolters that weigh 40lbs. The IoM also manufactures human-sized bolters, which are what you see sisters of battle and some IG officers using.

nah! regular bolters are all the same to me. IGs can ACTUALLY wield it just like lasrifles and shotguns. in fact Goldwyn Astartes Bolter simply looks like a rifle or carabine when Guardsman wields it. while it looks like an SMG to Marines.

the reasons Guardsmen don't have it because of manufacturings and logistics. surprisingly, Heavybolters produced MUCH easier than the lighter ones. i'm not sure if Heavybolters are simply Heavy machine gun designed to fire bolter rounds (and later enlarged to increase its deadliness) for HMGs. barrels move backwards along with recoil, the smaller MGs however, only the breech bolt moves and not the barrels.
In addition, Bolter rounds aren't just a solid slug nor simple percussion shells, it has its own propelling and guiding systems (i think..) if using THQ interpretations, Bolter rounds are 'smart ammunitions' but not guided missles, ok think of a sniper rifle having digital equipments to 'guide' its bullet (and a bullet with joints and curcuitry).
well the manufacturing complexity dictated that. only officiers may have a 'rifle' bolter, and sarge (5th IG codex, someone give me as a gift) may have bolt pistol.

same goes to Bolter weapons.
and Ain't FWs produce bolters to any Imperial armed forces?

=^.^=

Weight is very much another question of interpretation, anyways. It is only FFG's books (that have deliberately widened the gap between normal humans and Marines by much more than the original source material suggested) that give them a weight of 40 lbs - in GW's own Inquisitor RPG, they are slightly lighter than a meltagun, and only 25% heavier than an autorifle.

Now, that's not to say that stuff like an additionally armoured shell or some other optional stuff cannot ever bring it to such a heavy weight, it'd only mean that the basic mechanism isn't an issue.

It wasn't FFG that did it, it was various authors (like Ben Counter. The first obvious example of that I recall was from Soul Drinkers Bleeding Chalice and hardly being able to lift a bolt pistol, but its been in various other novels since like the Blood angels series.) Hell Brothers of the Snake had 70 kg lightning claws (apiece!) and that started out as a bunch of Inferno MAgazine short stories as I recall.

Again I blame the artwork mostly, because of how huge and bulky they make things look.. I mean if you look at Space Marine armor the plate is literally several inches thick even on the arms and legs (some places look as thick as my fist, which is bordering on the thickness of the armor on armoured vehicles if not tanks.) Bolters likewise are huge and chunky and block because that's supposed to be Imperial aesthetic and they clearly exaggerate that. Heck they even exaggerate IG weapons sizes - I bet if I tried scaling a Guardsmen's lasrifle he would either need superhuman strength or suspensors to wield that.

And Leman Russes, as I noted, would need an intra-dimensional pocket to store ammunition that scaled up to the barrel of a battle cannon (you could *charitably* call it 8" in some artwork..... which is 203mm diameter. Contrast this with 120mm diameter for modern tanks...)

Edit: And bolters as weapons are a bit overrated damage wise. Sure they can blow apart heads or even torsos, but other weapons can do that too (even a lasgun if its kitted out right and on the right settings, especially with hotshots.) And even if it can't, you dont need to blow something apart to do nasty damage - slicing it in half (with a laser beam) works quite well.

People use bolters, I figure, based on the Necromunda reason for them - they're a status symbol and a psychological weapon first. They're loud, they create visually impressive (and frightening) yet messy effects, and their design complexity, need fo rmaintenance, and resource issues (and cost) make them clearly a symbol of authority or power. They are, in fact, the projectile equivalent of the Chainsword (which has more to do with psychological impact than practicality as well. I mean why bother with it when you have mono-edged blades already?)

Good point - there's many interpretations on this subject out there, especially when looking at the novels, who even have the very height of the Marines go up more and more ... enough so that Jes Goodwin joked that they seem to "get bigger and bigger in every book". And novel authors were involved when writing the background of the RPG, so it shouldn't surprise to see some overbleed there. In fact, didn't Dan Abnett help with writing the original rulebook?

As for the damage, I'd still think they're pretty potent, if only because they penetrate before blowing up, whereas a lasgun shot "explodes" on impact. Of course both weapons can kill you a hundred times over, it's only when you apply this to the monstrous enemies that people face in 40k that such differences begin to matter.

But yes, status symbol ("I'm rich", "I have authority") and psychological effect ("BANG! BOOM!") are very important assets as well!

Well yeah they are highly penetrative but that's not neccesarily a good thing in every weapon, because they can overpenetrate (bolters in fact do this, and its only the fact its a supersonic, large calibre bullet doing it that saves it from being a problem most of the time.) But if you think about it its probably not the best way to be using them. We have 25mm grenade launchers in real life which isn't much bigger than a bolt round, and they are designed to behave like a grenade launcher. Bolters would have made more sense in that fashion (it doesnt even help that bolters have a round designed to behave exactly like that.)

There is more than just a power issue to bolters as well, or that they re large and bulky. The ammo is large and bulky too, which means that anyone but a Marine or Sister of Battle (EG someone with enahnced strength) carrying one will have limited ammo. Contrast this with a lasgun, whose powerpack carries anywhere from 2 to 10x the ammo capacity of a modern assault rifle.

A "laser" laser (EG one composed of photons) would explode on the surface becaue lasers don't penetrate very well. If it were something like an x-ray or gamma-ray it woudl be far more penetrative (but those, as I understand it, have some other significant problems like range. But some authors have hinted that the Imperium has X-ray lasers.) If it behaves more like a particle beam (or heaven help us, a projectile - eg "laser shells") then things might be different. Particle beams especially can be very penetrative - moreso than bullets in fact!

There's also the fact lasers aren't affected by gravity, wind (they are affected by air, but in a manner different from a bullet), they strike faster than a bullet (you hit where you aim) and there is virtually zero recoil (barring some sot of gas ejection like coolant or some other mechanical reason, which they usually don't have.) which means you can actually land more shots on target.

Bolters work for Marines and SoB largely because of power armor (no stock on the weapon, so they need the power armor to handle recoil and provide a stable firing platform, as well as to carry more ammo and having targeting system links to improve accuracy.) and SoB and Marines are both designed with psychological warfare in mind (EG flamethrowers, chainsaws, etc.).

Edit: It also hasn't helped that in modern fluff (even in the non novel stuff) you get bolters which are ejecting casings (or that bolt rounds are shown with casings) whihc means they aren't using rocket propelled ammo.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Well yeah they are highly penetrative but that's not neccesarily a good thing in every weapon, because they can overpenetrate

I think this may be "balanced" a bit by the microsecond fuse that was mentioned in a couple of GW books - even if a bolt punches through a thin sheet of plastic it'd still explode shortly after doing so, simply because the timer was triggered at the moment of penetration. Could it still over-penetrate? That I don't know, we just don't have the necessary facts for this. It may well be that a bolt round on full speed travels so fast that even a microsecond is too long when the round blasts through something thin like, say, a hand. In that case, it'd detonate shortly after leaving the target.

I'm sure there will be lots of different interpretations on this, anyways. The absence of a firm set of rules basically means no theory or description can be "wrong".

Connor MacLeod wrote:Bolters work for Marines and SoB largely because of power armor (no stock on the weapon, so they need the power armor to handle recoil and provide a stable firing platform, as well as to carry more ammo and having targeting system links to improve accuracy.)

Actually, I do not believe (anymore) that recoil is an issue. Even the bolters issued to IG characters don't have a stock, nor do the bolt pistols of a Commissar, and they all fire the same rounds. A stock, however, would be the first thing anyone would add to dampen recoil.

Reading up on older studio material, I noticed a detailed explanation in the 2E Wargear book which explained that the bolt leaves the weapon "at low speed" before its own rocket motor kicks in for acceleration. This is also necessary for Stalker ammunition, whose subsonic trait means that the bolt would have a top speed of no more than 343 m/s - this in turn isn't much different from the similarly sized FRAG-12 armour-piercing high explosive slugs that you can fire with a shotgun like the AA-12, whose internal recoil compensation has been lauded as allowing "even a child to use one of these", and I have seen instances where such a weapon was discharged single-handedly.

Now, I don't want to over-analyze stuff - especially as I am sure that the original designers did not put half as much thought into the technical details as we are doing here. In the end, this is a fantasy-sci-fi world where a lot of crazy things happen simply because somebody thought it was cool. But still, when concerns about the realism of such weaponry are raised, I find it interesting when, in the end, it turns out that it might still work.

Of course the weight would still be a problem, though.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Edit: It also hasn't helped that in modern fluff (even in the non novel stuff) you get bolters which are ejecting casings (or that bolt rounds are shown with casings) whihc means they aren't using rocket propelled ammo.

Naw, they're still rocket-propelled - it's just that bolters have long been described as using a two-stage firing mechanism. The bolt leaves the barrel like a normal gun shot (though at a very slow speed, as the goal is only to push the projectile out of the weapon), including the ejection of an outer shell, before the bolt engages its own rocket motor to pick up speed.

On IG and stuff carrying the bolter...

... it's not so much the weight of the gun, but the weight of the ammunition. Regardless of bolter type, whether pistol or gun, "civilian" or Astartes... they all fire the same type of round. This round, though fictional, has several real-world comparisons, all of which weigh in at an average of 3 ounces a pop.

That's a fethload of weight to give an infantryman to hump, in addition to all of his other gear, if you expect him to carry enough ammo for a gun battle that lasts more than a minute or two.

16 ounces in a pound... 5-6 bolt rounds to the pound (a bit over, actually, but 5 rounds is under), so even if the guy is humping 200 pounds of ammo, he's got only 1,000-1,200 rounds. That's... not a lot of bullets when you're spraying them in full-auto bursts at the oncoming Green Tide or a Tyranid horde. Plus, this guy still needs to carry his flak armor, his helmet, his canteens, his e-tool, his bedroll, his grenades, his ration packs, his rope and wire, a couple of tube-charges, maybe a tread-fether, his copy of the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, his first-aid kit, his illuminator, his gas-hood, his backpack, his pack of playing cards or set of dice, a carton of smokes, a lighter, a canister of foot powder (no infantryman deploys without this), and whatever else gear his Regiment requires for their operations. Even John Rambo isn't going to hump 300+ pounds of gear on a twenty-mile trek.

Add on to this that, when supplying an IG regiment, you will need to be shipping this ammo from whatever Munitorum depot is supplying this, and now you are getting into the tons of weight, which complicates things for shipping it off-world to a ship in orbit and then across the stars. While things in space are weightless, you still have to consider mass, its effects on inertia, and all the rest of those things of physics. Stupid physics!

While I don't believe that all Guardsmen carry such a huge list of equipment (Cadians maybe, since they're pretty much your contemporary soldier, but Valhallans or Attilani?) or that a normal trooper would carry more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition (unless you meant the heavy weapons guys?), I still have to agree - it's funny how damn heavy a handful of bullets can be! I remember I was genuinely surprised myself.

Something else I can maybe add in favour of the lasgun - aside from being able to draw power from specially set-up generatoriums at the encampment, from civilian installations in whose vicinity the Guard may be fighting or even from being tossed into a fire ... I've read in older material (1st and 2nd Edition!) that some lasguns can even be recharged by solar energy, using a small converter built into their casing.

The list of advantages the lasgun can have according to some sources is incredibly long, when you think about it.