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-Loki- wrote:Single part plastic is bad because it generally looks like turd

It is possible to make single-piece plastic models that look good, but it takes very clever sculpting, particularly on anything with a substantial amount of detail.

Multipart metal is bad because you spend more time pinning and greenstuffing joints than you do having fun painting the model.

That depends in large part on how the model fits together. In the case of GW's multi-part metals, I would largely agree with you... the joints tend to not fit together very well, and the models often need significant trimming, filing and pinning before they fit together properly.

I've had multi-part metals that didn't have that problem, though. If they're made through a competent mould-maker and caster, they don't necessarily have to be any harder to assemble than plastics.

chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).

How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?

Sure some others give you extra stuff like stickers, signed stuff or even limited edition stuff as a "thank you" but it has always been up to the artist/producer to determine what peeps get. What we as consumers and pledgers are responsible ofr is the amount we are willing to pledge, if anything at all.

Not as cheap as a box of Cadians (for non-Australians) but still Ok value for this type of Metal Mini.

insaniak wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Single part plastic is bad because it generally looks like turd

It is possible to make single-piece plastic models that look good, but it takes very clever sculpting, particularly on anything with a substantial amount of detail.

Multipart metal is bad because you spend more time pinning and greenstuffing joints than you do having fun painting the model.

That depends in large part on how the model fits together. In the case of GW's multi-part metals, I would largely agree with you... the joints tend to not fit together very well, and the models often need significant trimming, filing and pinning before they fit together properly.

I've had multi-part metals that didn't have that problem, though. If they're made through a competent mould-maker and caster, they don't necessarily have to be any harder to assemble than plastics.

Spot on... I have some spun cast components from the Kriegsmarine in my hands right now. My Spincaster for this project is Fortress Figures, the same folks that do the MERCS minis. The areas that glue together are perfectly flat and smooth. Unlike traditional sculpting where they cut the components apart, these are 100% clean. If you pin these its because you want extra strength in case you drop it.

Dare I say, the joints are so clean that the supergule is all the filler you need... No green crud on these needed.

Vain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).

How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?

Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.

BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.

What beautiful miniatures! I am constantly amazed at what smaller companies like your own can produce when you put your mind to it! I think you should have no problem reaching your start up goal.

Liking all the new bits that I have not seen before like the command sprue and the scanner thingy, great work!

chaos0xomega wrote: I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder.

Of course you are. You're being promised a batch of minis from the first production run. You'll be one of the first people in the world to get your hands on these miniatures.

Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed...

Why indeed...

... when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released?

Have you seen the number of miniatures companies that come and go before you can say 'Make some female guard!'...? Supporting the kickstarter makes it easier for a company to get the project off the ground in the first place... which means a better chance they they will be developed and released. Sure, you can wait and hope for the best. Or, if the miniatures are something that you really want to see happen, you can support it in order to help ensure that the project goes ahead, and can wind up with the minis a little bit earlier as a result.

If that's not enough of an incentive for you, that's fine. You're under no obligation to support the project.

Offering rewards that are in excess of the donation being provided would be kind of counter-productive, given that the idea of the kickstarter is to provide funds to get the project started in the first place...

Metal isn't putting me off! I'm still in.

... when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released?

Have you seen the number of miniatures companies that come and go before you can say 'Make some female guard!'...? Supporting the kickstarter makes it easier for a company to get the project off the ground in the first place... which means a better chance they they will be developed and released. Sure, you can wait and hope for the best. Or, if the miniatures are something that you really want to see happen, you can support it in order to help ensure that the project goes ahead, and can wind up with the minis a little bit earlier as a result.

If that's not enough of an incentive for you, that's fine. You're under no obligation to support the project.

Offering rewards that are in excess of the donation being provided would be kind of counter-productive, given that the idea of the kickstarter is to provide funds to get the project started in the first place...

Well, the start-up phase is usually the most expensive one, as you need to actually buy the equipment, once you own the equipment, your need for funds to operate usually decreases drastically, so once you have gotten the money to make the initial investment, you should survive going in zero for a while. Also, people should be rewarded for taking the risk to pay money for something that might never exist.

Say you invest in something, you should expect to get more for your money if you invest in the very beginning than if you invest after the business is up and running because you have taken much more risk. This should be the same thing IMO, people giving money to this guy are taking a much larger risk than those that order once the business is up and running, and as such, they should (IMO) be rewarded for taking the risk.

I have donated some money to various Kickstarter projects. I gave the money because I wished the ventures to succeed I would get something out of project 'x' existence.

If I had the cash now I would pledge $50 or $100 or even more, the product looks to be great, if I got my hands on a box of figures before release so much the better. $50 is a hell of a lot cheaper than getting my own sculpts made or setting up my own company to make minis that I really like.


YMMV

chaos0xomega wrote:

Vain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).

How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?

Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.

BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.

I think we have a difference of opinion on what Kickstarter is and is not. I would agree with you that it is not a pre-order venue, but it is not a wholesale discount-clearing house either.

Kickstarter is a social venture capital system used to get projects off the ground. They call them “rewards” because it has the ability for donors to receive copies or other incentives of the artists work. It also allows those who are so inclined, to donate beyond the reward level, say a $100.00 reward level but they choose to donate $150.00 because they believe in the project and would like to see it come to fruition. When you go to KQED or another public service station that is holding a funding drive, you are supporting the ability for that entity to continue brining you the products and services that you enjoy. Do they give you items commensurate with your donation? No… Here you are receiving items that match or exceed your donation. People who support the numerous movie and art projects are not receiving a dollar for dollar translation. They are helping the project producer make the project happen.


My project is to pull in $3000.00 to add to my $2000.00 and allow me to produce all the prototypes and molds needed for this product line. Will everything be in the black when all is said and done? I doubt it but I hope it would be. At the current costs and reward funding levels. We have the prototypes to pay for, the molds the miniatures and bases to fulfill the rewards, the credit card fees and the 5% Kickstarter fees. With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black. Considering most miniatures sell about 400-600 units per year according to my spincaster, I would say that my prices are more than reasonable for what you receive. Will the MSRP be higher than the $5.00 you pay here? Yes. Most miniatures today are grouped in the $6.99 to $9.99 range. Why? Because they need to look at giving the brick and mortar stores a 40-50% discount while still paying for mold replacement costs (as I do). Do I know an exact retail right now? No. I need to see how close I am to being in the black when the project is complete.

I invite you to do a search for miniatures; you will see the other projects were charging more than I am for their completed rewards, in some cases $10.00 per mini.
Take Tom Mason’s project as an example, do you truly believe people would pay $10.00 a miniature without knowing that a good portion of that is simply to help Tom get some solid ground under his feet?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1470153821/effigy-miniatures-a-new-sci-fi-and-fantasy-miniatu?ref=live


I don’t expect to change your opinion on this, but since we keep coming back to it I felt I needed to state my case and allow you to decide if you would like to support this project or not.

NoseGoblin wrote:Dare I say, the joints are so clean that the supergule is all the filler you need.

Well instead of using a superghoul, I rather use my trusted 2part epoxy glue on metals and resins.
Never had a problem with that

Kroothawk wrote:

NoseGoblin wrote:Dare I say, the joints are so clean that the supergule is all the filler you need.

Well instead of using a superghoul, I rather use my trusted 2part epoxy glue on metals and resins.
Never had a problem with that

I use that or "Gorrilla Superglue" it has an elastomer that allows the glue to remain less brittle and increases shear strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.

That comes down to knowledge and contacts. I know some fundamentals about mold design and I can tell you the current models are not suitable for injection mold machines due to undercuts and mold draft angles. It could be done as is but the molds would have to have sliders that turn each half of the mold into multi part assemblies. VERY expensive.

This is something I am still looking into but without a LOT more time revising the current CAD models, they are simply not suitable for that process. With all that in mind I did not seriously consider injection molding tools for these minis.

NoseGoblin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Vain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).

How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?

Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.

BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.

I think we have a difference of opinion on what Kickstarter is and is not. I would agree with you that it is not a pre-order venue, but it is not a wholesale discount-clearing house either.

Kickstarter is a social venture capital system used to get projects off the ground. They call them “rewards” because it has the ability for donors to receive copies or other incentives of the artists work. It also allows those who are so inclined, to donate beyond the reward level, say a $100.00 reward level but they choose to donate $150.00 because they believe in the project and would like to see it come to fruition. When you go to KQED or another public service station that is holding a funding drive, you are supporting the ability for that entity to continue brining you the products and services that you enjoy. Do they give you items commensurate with your donation? No… Here you are receiving items that match or exceed your donation. People who support the numerous movie and art projects are not receiving a dollar for dollar translation. They are helping the project producer make the project happen.


My project is to pull in $3000.00 to add to my $2000.00 and allow me to produce all the prototypes and molds needed for this product line. Will everything be in the black when all is said and done? I doubt it but I hope it would be. At the current costs and reward funding levels. We have the prototypes to pay for, the molds the miniatures and bases to fulfill the rewards, the credit card fees and the 5% Kickstarter fees. With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black. Considering most miniatures sell about 400-600 units per year according to my spincaster, I would say that my prices are more than reasonable for what you receive. Will the MSRP be higher than the $5.00 you pay here? Yes. Most miniatures today are grouped in the $6.99 to $9.99 range. Why? Because they need to look at giving the brick and mortar stores a 40-50% discount while still paying for mold replacement costs (as I do). Do I know an exact retail right now? No. I need to see how close I am to being in the black when the project is complete.

I invite you to do a search for miniatures; you will see the other projects were charging more than I am for their completed rewards, in some cases $10.00 per mini.
Take Tom Mason’s project as an example, do you truly believe people would pay $10.00 a miniature without knowing that a good portion of that is simply to help Tom get some solid ground under his feet?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1470153821/effigy-miniatures-a-new-sci-fi-and-fantasy-miniatu?ref=live


I don’t expect to change your opinion on this, but since we keep coming back to it I felt I needed to state my case and allow you to decide if you would like to support this project or not.

I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:

If I donate 25 bucks I pay 5.00/mini
If I donate 49, I save .10/mini
If I donate 199, I actually only save .025/mini, which means its actually more economical (by about 3 dollars) to donate 49 dollars 4 times than it is for me to do one lump donation of 199 dollars (ignoring the fact that the minis are slightly different in the 199 package)
It really doesn't become economical for me to make a large donation to the cause until the 489 dollar level, assuming a baseline cost of 375 dollars for a leviathan (which actually brings the cost per mini down to the 2-3 dollar range). I hope you understand why this is problematic, especially for those of us that don't have 489 dollars to throw at you but would still like to help out.

The fact that you're asking for shipping fees on top of all this, even though its supposed to be a 'reward' makes me feel that I'm making a purchase from you rather than actually being rewarded for helping make your dream a reality, which is what kickstarter is really supposed to be about.

Its also worth noting that properly implemented economies of scale (in terms of price points) have been proven to see greater returns if you're talking about profits. If you can purchase 1 of item x for 10 dollars, or 2 of item x for 15 dollars, and your average customer wants a minimum of 4 of item x, you'll probably only push 4 items at 10 dollars, but you might be pushing 6 items if they are buying 2 for 15, and there is also a good chance that they will even go so far to purchase 8 items in that case.

More importantly, I hope that you keep the $899 package available as a purchasing option from your site after the minis are released so that I can actually take advantage of it when I start my job in 4-5 months.

DAMN IT! I was so psyched until I saw these were metal... So lame.

Scottywan82 wrote:DAMN IT! I was so psyched until I saw these were metal...

metal definitely kills any interest I might have had...

CT GAMER wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:DAMN IT! I was so psyched until I saw these were metal...

metal definitely kills any interest I might have had...

I am quite the opposite metal miniatures draw my interest more than resin/plastic.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:

If I donate 25 bucks I pay 5.00/mini
If I donate 49, I save .10/mini
If I donate 199, I actually only save .025/mini, which means its actually more economical (by about 3 dollars) to donate 49 dollars 4 times than it is for me to do one lump donation of 199 dollars (ignoring the fact that the minis are slightly different in the 199 package)
It really doesn't become economical for me to make a large donation to the cause until the 489 dollar level, assuming a baseline cost of 375 dollars for a leviathan (which actually brings the cost per mini down to the 2-3 dollar range). I hope you understand why this is problematic, especially for those of us that don't have 489 dollars to throw at you but would still like to help out.

The fact that you're asking for shipping fees on top of all this, even though its supposed to be a 'reward' makes me feel that I'm making a purchase from you rather than actually being rewarded for helping make your dream a reality, which is what kickstarter is really supposed to be about.

Its also worth noting that properly implemented economies of scale (in terms of price points) have been proven to see greater returns if you're talking about profits. If you can purchase 1 of item x for 10 dollars, or 2 of item x for 15 dollars, and your average customer wants a minimum of 4 of item x, you'll probably only push 4 items at 10 dollars, but you might be pushing 6 items if they are buying 2 for 15, and there is also a good chance that they will even go so far to purchase 8 items in that case.

More importantly, I hope that you keep the $899 package available as a purchasing option from your site after the minis are released so that I can actually take advantage of it when I start my job in 4-5 months.

I hear you and perhaps I could have approached it differently from a marketing standpoint…

I can see your point about the psychology of it. My only option would have been to raise the price on the rewards to couch shipping fees and raise the price of the lower level rewards to supply a perceived value of a better discount. Perhaps I should have? But I would undoubtedly be catching flack for not having cheap enough entry-level rewards.

-This is the bottom line- “With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black.” No matter how I sell it or structure it, it has to make sense financially. I opted to go as low as I could across the board and hope that the interest was there. If not, it won’t get funded.

The $199 level is actually costing more to produce than your budgeting for… it’s the equivalent of 45 figures in production costs. If I unbundled this you would see the true costs involved.

Delephont wrote:Metal isn't putting me off! I'm still in.

Same here. Hell I dont even know what Id use them for exactly...but that wont stop me from getting some.

Excellent work, especially for a company of your size. They look even better than the digital renders you've shown off before. With designs of this quality, I can't believe some large company hasn't snatched you up yet.

Really very nice!

I like metal.

I support resin over metal

unless its finecast

I was really against the concept being in metal until i realized that they were multipart kits, so it will be easy to make mods on the kits without cutting the metals. Also as an owner of one of the leviathan kits I can wrest to the quality mark stands for and know he won't allow crazy mold lines and such to ruin these.

[quote=chaos0xomega

I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:

I'm waiting for a check to come in, hopefully by this time next week, probably going to get one of the platoon packs, not that it matters, looks like you're going to hit your deadline very soon

Psychology besides, I believe this is gonna happen. With 28 days left and only US$49.00 to go I believe this is gonna happen. I would have liked to see these in plastic though. I will probably get a few to use as veteran guard or stormtroopers. The cost in metal is to high for me to get alot of these though.

chaos0xomega wrote:I'm waiting for a check to come in, hopefully by this time next week, probably going to get one of the platoon packs, not that it matters, looks like you're going to hit your deadline very soon

I don't believe anyone pays for anything until the closing date of the project? until then its just a pledge to pay.

As far a your pledge mattering..... Ohhhh but it does matter, $3000.00just gives me the minimum I need to have the prototypes made and the spin-casts completed for the project.

The tooling and prototypes wont be paid for until I go over the minimum project amount by another $3750.00 in sales.
So yes, your contribution and all further contributions make a HUGE difference to the speed I can deliver the next kits in.....

Just kicked it over the $3,000 limit for ya

Congested Dreamforge,

I figured you'd get it by the end of the weekend after seeing the leviathans sell. Still trying to get enough saved up to do my part.

Theophony

Need a few ammo pouches and places for equipment.

Look great though, I'd like a box for some corperate security types, or higher level tech troops Vs. Zombies, or Cthuhlu monsters....

Where do I get in on this action?