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Lepuke wrote:For one second forget the wording in the codex and look at the raw point cost for the upgrade and consider the designers intent.

I belive a 10pts upgrade to give a unit fnp is undercosted compared to all other codex.

I disagree. And that is ALL the argument I need when you start guessing as to the designers intent.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Lepuke wrote:For one second forget the wording in the codex and look at the raw point cost for the upgrade and consider the designers intent.

I belive a 10pts upgrade to give a unit fnp is undercosted compared to all other codex.

I disagree. And that is ALL the argument I need when you start guessing as to the designers intent.

Fortunately there are other reasons proven as to why a painboy costs 50 points, not 30.

Oh, I agree.

The pointcost is the cost of a Nob + the cost of the upgrade.

I just react strongly to people using "designers intent" as any kind of argument.

If we all used designer's intent, then Draigo and the Gk would all have 1++ saves, and 1 is not a fail.

Codex says

in nob entry:
"one nob may be a painboy.......xx pts"

in boyz entry:
"one boy may be upgraded to a nob......xx pts"

I am confused right now as the boy entry is clear for the part nob being an upgrade but the entry nob is different.

Although nob entry also states that painboy swaps slugga and choppa for tools and syringe.

Yes, that is because he "starts out" as a Nob (having been bought and paid for) that is "upgraded" to a Painboy (by paying the upgrade cost).....resulting in a 50 points total for a Painboy.

well if we move on to the flash gits, one flash git may be lead by kaptain +xxx points. he's not an upgrade.

one flash git may be a pain boy +30 points.

all costs are listed as + pts. isn't it possible when they say "one flash git may be .." its for the unit composition? So you could have 4 flash gits and a pain boy? or 2 nobs and a painboy.

its just odd that they use 4 different terms (upgrade, include, lead by, and may be a) and that would lead you to think they are different from each other. So "may be" does not mean "upgrade"

sirlynchmob wrote:well if we move on to the flash gits, one flash git may be lead by kaptain +xxx points. he's not an upgrade.

one flash git may be a pain boy +30 points.

all costs are listed as + pts. isn't it possible when they say "one flash git may be .." its for the unit composition? So you could have 4 flash gits and a pain boy? or 2 nobs and a painboy.

its just odd that they use 4 different terms (upgrade, include, lead by, and may be a) and that would lead you to think they are different from each other. So "may be" does not mean "upgrade"

Technically the Flashgits character is added to the unit so you can have 10 flash gitz + Kaptain (11 models total)

(late edit for typos)

Ork Codex Page 98, Nobz Wargear: "Slugga, Choppa, Nob Bikers are mounted on Warbikes, Painboy replaces his slugga and choppa with Dok's tools and 'Urty Syringe"

Ork Codex Page 103, Flash gitz Wargear: "'Eavy Armor, Snazzgun, Gitfinda, Painboy replaces 'eavy armor, snazzgun and gitfinda with Dok's tools and 'Urty Syringe"

How do you replace items without having them in the first place?

If the Painboy was a Nob/Flashgit to begin with; then this entry makes sense.

If the Painboy is bought separately; then this does not make sense.

Evidence on how the wargear entry looks when a model is purchased separately:

Ork Codex page 100, Gretchin Wargear: Grethchin: Blasta, Runtherds: Grabba stick, Slugga, Squighound"

Notice how the Runtherds flat have their gear, not exchanging it from the Grot Blasta?

Also another thing is while Deff argues that they are no different than Snikrot or Zagstruck, if you look at the way the points costs are listed this becomes unlikely to me. From the codex:

Boss Zagstruk....xx points
Boss Snikrot....xx points
One boy may be upgraded to a nob...+xx
One nob may be a Painboy...+xx

The addition of the + sign seems to be used in the codex only where an upgrade is involved, rather than a separate unique character.

Also your examples of a painboy bringing other Nob wargear is invalid since in the entries it clearly says painboyz replace their normal nob or flashgit gear with their painboy gear. In addition, a nob is clearly an upgraded boy, and you cannot bring a rokkit launcher on him (as far as I'm concerned), so why would a painboy be able to bring nob gear because he's an upgrade?

OK disclaimer because I have been reading the codex for a total of about 2 weeks now as I am a total noob, but interestingly enough this is one thing I noticed as I start to try to build an army. I noticed that the rule concerning painboy in nob squad was worded a little differently than the Boyz to nob rule. So my opinion of the matter is completely uninfluenced by what any players think because I have literally played most games under 100 points and probably no more than 5 games. That being said:

When I read the line "One boy may be upgraded to Nob". I had no doubt in my mind that it meant you buy the boy then upgrade him, then that gives you access to the nob weapons as well which must be purchased seperately.

When I read the line "One nob may be a painboy". My first interpretation was this: I can have 9 nobs@ 20 Points per model and then instead of taking a 10th nob(max squad size), I can take a painboy as the 10th model instead. I also assumed it would cost 50 points and not 30. This is different than Snikrot which could be (+) added to a maxed out unit of kommandos. So 9 nobs w no upgrades 9*20, 1 painboy to max unnit size 50. 230 for maxed unit w painboy and no upgrades.

The Nobs base cost is 20, add PK they cost 45. One painboy as I read it is 50. Which is just a little bit more than a nob + PK which I would expect because FNP seems like a really damn good upgrade that works Unit wide. You are basically upgrading 9 units for 30 points. Not to mention the Urty Syringe doesn't seem like a bad weapon. I think if you look at it in terms of "your whole unit gets a huge buff for 50 points." Then it seems like a pretty sane price at 50.

mazik765 wrote:Also another thing is while Deff argues that they are no different than Snikrot or Zagstruck, if you look at the way the points costs are listed this becomes unlikely to me. From the codex:

Boss Zagstruk....xx points
Boss Snikrot....xx points
One boy may be upgraded to a nob...+xx
One nob may be a Painboy...+xx

The addition of the + sign seems to be used in the codex only where an upgrade is involved, rather than a separate unique character.

Also your examples of a painboy bringing other Nob wargear is invalid since in the entries it clearly says painboyz replace their normal nob or flashgit gear with their painboy gear. In addition, a nob is clearly an upgraded boy, and you cannot bring a rokkit launcher on him (as far as I'm concerned), so why would a painboy be able to bring nob gear because he's an upgrade?

Those "+" are more or less used randomly throughout the codex, so no real indication. A boyz nob may also wield a rokkit launcher or big shoota, as it says "one ork may", and nobz are still orks.

Pain boyz may not bring nobz upgrades because they are not nobz, and the FAQ also explicitly says so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grots R OP wrote:OK disclaimer because I have been reading the codex for a total of about 2 weeks now as I am a total noob, but interestingly enough this is one thing I noticed as I start to try to build an army. I noticed that the rule concerning painboy in nob squad was worded a little differently than the Boyz to nob rule. So my opinion of the matter is completely uninfluenced by what any players think because I have literally played most games under 100 points and probably no more than 5 games. That being said:

When I read the line "One boy may be upgraded to Nob". I had no doubt in my mind that it meant you buy the boy then upgrade him, then that gives you access to the nob weapons as well which must be purchased seperately.

When I read the line "One nob may be a painboy". My first interpretation was this: I can have 9 nobs@ 20 Points per model and then instead of taking a 10th nob(max squad size), I can take a painboy as the 10th model instead. I also assumed it would cost 50 points and not 30. This is different than Snikrot which could be (+) added to a maxed out unit of kommandos. So 9 nobs w no upgrades 9*20, 1 painboy to max unnit size 50. 230 for maxed unit w painboy and no upgrades.

The Nobs base cost is 20, add PK they cost 45. One painboy as I read it is 50. Which is just a little bit more than a nob + PK which I would expect because FNP seems like a really damn good upgrade that works Unit wide. You are basically upgrading 9 units for 30 points. Not to mention the Urty Syringe doesn't seem like a bad weapon. I think if you look at it in terms of "your whole unit gets a huge buff for 50 points." Then it seems like a pretty sane price at 50.

Technically you would still buy the 10th nob and then upgrade him to a painboy, at which point he trades slugga and choppa for the doc tools and 'urty syringe. Otherwise, you nailed it.

I see where he was coming from, at least.

Every other entry in the codex says "one X may be upgraded to a Y", while the painboy is the only one that says "one nob may be a painboy".

Now, I'm not going to restate all the reasons why this is just a typo, but if you think he was just trying to squeeze one in, I think you're wrong. It's definitely more open to interpretation than half the rules on YMDC are.

Okay, the Painboy is clearly allowed to take SOME Nob equipment. The OP is wrong about the cost though.

Follow my logic.

In a unit of normal Boyz, you purchase and equip all the Boyz before you upgrade the Nob. So, you buy 20 Boyz, and then you replace their Sluggas and Choppas with Shootas. Then you give them Stickbombs. Then you give two Boyz Big Shootas.

Now, you decide to upgrade one of the Boyz with the Big Shoota to a Nob. Now, you have a Nob with Stickbombs and a Big Shoota. You can't give him a Big Choppa or a Power Klaw, because you've already replaced his Choppa with something else. However, you can now add 'Eavy Armour or a Bosspole to him.

A Painboy works the same way.

You buy the Nobs. You give them all their equipment. You can even give them bikes. Then you pick the Nob to be the Painboy. He sacrifices his Slugga and Choppa to get the Doc's Tools and 'Urty Syringe. So, you cannot upgrade a Nob to a Painboy who does NOT have a Slugga and a Choppa. Thus, you can't give a Painboy a Kombi-Weapon or a Power Klaw. However, you can give the Painboy a Boss Pole, a Waaagh! Banner, an Ammo Runt, a Bike, Stickbombs, or any other upgrade which doesn't replace the Slugga and Choppa.

Murrdox wrote:Okay, the Painboy is clearly allowed to take SOME Nob equipment. The OP is wrong about the cost though.

Follow my logic.

In a unit of normal Boyz, you purchase and equip all the Boyz before you upgrade the Nob. So, you buy 20 Boyz, and then you replace their Sluggas and Choppas with Shootas. Then you give them Stickbombs. Then you give two Boyz Big Shootas.

Now, you decide to upgrade one of the Boyz with the Big Shoota to a Nob. Now, you have a Nob with Stickbombs and a Big Shoota. You can't give him a Big Choppa or a Power Klaw, because you've already replaced his Choppa with something else. However, you can now add 'Eavy Armour or a Bosspole to him.

A Painboy works the same way.

You buy the Nobs. You give them all their equipment. You can even give them bikes. Then you pick the Nob to be the Painboy. He sacrifices his Slugga and Choppa to get the Doc's Tools and 'Urty Syringe. So, you cannot upgrade a Nob to a Painboy who does NOT have a Slugga and a Choppa. Thus, you can't give a Painboy a Kombi-Weapon or a Power Klaw. However, you can give the Painboy a Boss Pole, a Waaagh! Banner, an Ammo Runt, a Bike, Stickbombs, or any other upgrade which doesn't replace the Slugga and Choppa.

Not according to the latest faq from GW:

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy
armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt
upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

bikes and stickbombs are ok.

Lol! This is getting harder and harder to follow. I can see my thoughts got everyones cogs turning.

I'll try to simplify my argument again but keep in mind at this point I have already agreed he is 50 points.

Imagine a MtG card. You have things like "card type", "Creature type", Casting cost and all that.
Each of these thing is in a specific spot with specific wording for the ease of the rules and the player.

Now consider your Codex to be written the same way. You have "Unit type", "Options", "Characters" and the mystery bold text area.
This mystery area in the Ork codex only has 4 entries: Zagstruk, Snikrot, Badrukk and Painboy. Painboys aren't Nobs. Nowhere in the book does it say that a Painboy is a Nob.
Painboyz are Oddboyz not Nobz. Saying he is a nob is like saying Deffkoptas are nobs (because they have 2 wounds).

An easier way to say it: Painboyz are not options or characters. They are an addition to the unit.

The way I see it, the Painboy can't take nob equipment because he isn't a nob. Were he a nob I could by him a PK and then let him "BE" a painboy.
However the rules conflict here. It says he exchanges his choppa and slugga for DT and US.
I figured if you gave him a PK he can't take the other stuff and thus the Nob unit does not gain FNP but can still take Cybork bodies. This is incorrect.
So now I see it as "Add a painboy to the UNIT for 30 points". This would keep the squad size at a max of ten (3-10 Nobz, one nob may be a painboy).

One last time... I agree they must be 50.

The FAQs should: 1) Change the cost of the Painboy to ...50 points. (not +50). 2) Add a Characters section under the nob entry "One nob may be upgraded to a painboy +30points. Or 3) Painboys could be added as a seperate elites choice that doesnt take up a FoC spot. You can only take one per Nob unit and they must be attached to the Nobs.

DeffDred wrote:Lol! This is getting harder and harder to follow. I can see my thoughts got everyones cogs turning.

I'll try to simplify my argument again but keep in mind at this point I have already agreed he is 50 points.

Imagine a MtG card. You have things like "card type", "Creature type", Casting cost and all that.
Each of these thing is in a specific spot with specific wording for the ease of the rules and the player.

Now consider your Codex to be written the same way. You have "Unit type", "Options", "Characters" and the mystery bold text area.
This mystery area in the Ork codex only has 4 entries: Zagstruk, Snikrot, Badrukk and Painboy. Painboys aren't Nobs. Nowhere in the book does it say that a Painboy is a Nob.
Painboyz are Oddboyz not Nobz. Saying he is a nob is like saying Deffkoptas are nobs (because they have 2 wounds).

An easier way to say it: Painboyz are not options or characters. They are an addition to the unit.

The way I see it, the Painboy can't take nob equipment because he isn't a nob. Were he a nob I could by him a PK and then let him "BE" a painboy.
However the rules conflict here. It says he exchanges his choppa and slugga for DT and US.
I figured if you gave him a PK he can't take the other stuff and thus the Nob unit does not gain FNP but can still take Cybork bodies. This is incorrect.
So now I see it as "Add a painboy to the UNIT for 30 points". This would keep the squad size at a max of ten (3-10 Nobz, one nob may be a painboy).

One last time... I agree they must be 50.

The FAQs should: 1) Change the cost of the Painboy to ...50 points. (not +50). 2) Add a Characters section under the nob entry "One nob may be upgraded to a painboy +30points. Or 3) Painboys could be added as a seperate elites choice that doesnt take up a FoC spot. You can only take one per Nob unit and they must be attached to the Nobs.

cool lets keep this simple for you ...
Magic style.
PainBoy (summoning cost three swamp)


Special
To summon Pain Boy replace one Nob card already in Play.
While summoned All orks on the field gain feel no pain.


If you haven't taken the nob (20pts) you cannot take the Painboy (30pts) as it replace one nob.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Not according to the latest faq from GW:

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy
armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt
upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

bikes and stickbombs are ok.

D'oh! Should have remembered that was FAQed before I went and posted about it! Thanks for the correction mate

well, to be honest it clearly states that it is an upgrade on the normal Nob so using simple addition, 20 + 30 = 50! So using this idea, it must be 50 points?

You make an already paid for nob into a painboy. It is an upgrade in precisely the same way as a nob from regular boy. You must pay for the basic model before the upgrade.

A nob with poison weapon that makes his entire unit and any associated characters FNP is not going to be 30pts no matter how you spin it.

@ DeffDred, I am actually glad you started this thread. For me(brand new- player) I can honestly say it is the poorest written and most confusing line in the codex that I have encountered. It probably is a typo as someone else mentioned earlier, but still, the way it is written make it terribly difficult to tell what the true intention is.

See now, this is how a rules discussion thread should go!

And I'm almost certain that there are other upgrades that don't depend on Slugga and Choppa swaps...

Also, how does that work? Like Deffdredd was saying, "a Painboy swaps his slugga and Choppa for a 'Urty Syringe and Doc's Tools" is different than "A Nob swaps his slugga and Choppa for a 'Urty Syringe and Doc's Tools, and thus becomes a Painboy". It suggests that the Painboy upgrade is made before, and independant of, the weapon swap- and since there's a benefit (Cybork) that doesn't depend on the weapon swap, does this mean that you could potentially have a Painboy with a Powerklaw but no 'Urty Syringe? Or is it required that you swap the weapons?

remember that the ork codex came out before 5th edition rulebook. I wouldn't be surprised to see more dtailed explantations in the next codex which probably won't come out until 6th edtition or JUST before 6th edition.

Anvildude wrote:See now, this is how a rules discussion thread should go!

And I'm almost certain that there are other upgrades that don't depend on Slugga and Choppa swaps...

GW FAQed all but bikes and stikkbomms to not work on painboyz.

Also, how does that work? Like Deffdredd was saying, "a Painboy swaps his slugga and Choppa for a 'Urty Syringe and Doc's Tools" is different than "A Nob swaps his slugga and Choppa for a 'Urty Syringe and Doc's Tools, and thus becomes a Painboy". It suggests that the Painboy upgrade is made before, and independant of, the weapon swap- and since there's a benefit (Cybork) that doesn't depend on the weapon swap, does this mean that you could potentially have a Painboy with a Powerklaw but no 'Urty Syringe? Or is it required that you swap the weapons?

If you don't have a choppa, you won't get either 'urty syringe nor doc tools, as you trade two for two, similar to assault terminators not being able to have a Strom Shield and a single Lightning Claw. Basically you would rename your pk nob to a painboy at +30 points.

Jidmah wrote:

Anvildude wrote:See now, this is how a rules discussion thread should go!

And I'm almost certain that there are other upgrades that don't depend on Slugga and Choppa swaps...

GW FAQed all but bikes and stikkbomms to not work on painboyz.

Hang on!

A Painboy cannot take the 'Eavy Armour (to use one of the FAQed items as an example). This we know.
(This is certainly not the same a saying that the 'Eavy Armour upgrade doesn't work on Painboyz.)

We also know that a Nob keeps any equipment not specifically swapped for the Painboy gear.


So while a Painboy cannot take the 'Eavy Armour upgrade a Nob can, and when upgrading to a Painboy he doesn't lose it.
Does the make the FAQ kinda redundant? Yes, it does, but there you have it.

Gotta love those loopholes.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Anvildude wrote:See now, this is how a rules discussion thread should go!

And I'm almost certain that there are other upgrades that don't depend on Slugga and Choppa swaps...

GW FAQed all but bikes and stikkbomms to not work on painboyz.

Hang on!

A Painboy cannot take the 'Eavy Armour (to use one of the FAQed items as an example). This we know.
(This is certainly not the same a saying that the 'Eavy Armour upgrade doesn't work on Painboyz.)

We also know that a Nob keeps any equipment not specifically swapped for the Painboy gear.


So while a Painboy cannot take the 'Eavy Armour upgrade a Nob can, and when upgrading to a Painboy he doesn't lose it.
Does the make the FAQ kinda redundant? Yes, it does, but there you have it.

It says pretty explicitly it can't take it. Not really a loop hole, because if you give a Nob 'eavy armour and then upgrade it to a painboy which cannot have 'eavy armour, it's fair to say it loses the 'eavy armour.

Exactly. If you bought the upgrades for a nob and then made him a painboy, he has wargear he explicitly may not take, and thus is an illegal model. This is different from nobz taking a pk before a shoota trade, as the nob is not explicitly forbidden from having a different weapon than the boyz he's leading.

DeffDred wrote:Do you think Painboyz are 30 points or 50?

I am convinced that they are only 30. When reading the Codex it suggests they are no different than a named character added to a squad.

50

For THIS reason:

Ork dex page 83, the green horde example army:

pt5, the nob mob:

(5) 5 Nobs.............190 pts
with two twin linked shootas, one power klaw,
a Waaagh! banner and a bospole including
a painboy with a grot orderly

So lets split this up:

5 nobs cost 100

2 twin ahootas are 10

a pk is 25

a wb 15,

a bosspole 5

NOW WE ARE AT 155 PTS!

NOW WE BUY THE PAINBOY UPGRADE FOR AN ADDITIONAL 30 PTS

if we then add the grot orderly, were at 190. The example army paid 50 PTS, so it must be right.

Do you get it now?

MrMerlin wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Do you think Painboyz are 30 points or 50?

I am convinced that they are only 30. When reading the Codex it suggests they are no different than a named character added to a squad.

50

For THIS reason:

Ork dex page 83, the green horde example army:

pt5, the nob mob:

(5) 5 Nobs.............190 pts
with two twin linked shootas, one power klaw,
a Waaagh! banner and a bospole including
a painboy with a grot orderly

So lets split this up:

5 nobs cost 100

2 twin ahootas are 10

a pk is 25

a wb 15,

a bosspole 5

NOW WE ARE AT 155 PTS!

NOW WE BUY THE PAINBOY UPGRADE FOR AN ADDITIONAL 30 PTS

if we then add the grot orderly, were at 190. The example army paid 50 PTS, so it must be right.

Do you get it now?

well just because everyone does it that way, doesn't make it automatically right. but also you shouldn't post itemized point costs