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Do you think Painboyz are 30 points or 50?

I am convinced that they are only 30. When reading the Codex it suggests they are no different than a named character added to a squad.

You buy a nob, you upgrade it to a painboy.

It says one nob may be a painboy, but you must have the nob before he can become a painboy. Simple.

You pay for a nob, then pay an upgrade amount to turn them into a painboy. so 50 points.

Just so you dont think "its only 2 guys that say it" They are both correct. Same with the nob in a boyz mob, hes NOT 10pts, you have to buy the boy first, and THEN buy the nob

I agree with your view Deff, but it's a tiny,tiny minority view. Best to have him as 50 in your list

50 points.

You're upgrading a model. In order to do the upgrade, you need the model, which needs to be bought.

Reading the text, it states: "One Nob may be a Painboy", so it does avert the word "upgrade". However, the manner in which it is presented still strongly indicates that the cost of this is inclusion to the initial purchase of the nob.

He costs 50 points, but hey, i still call it a steal.

The Painboy is not an upgrade to a nob. He is a stand alone model like Zagstrukor Snikrot.
If he were a nob first then I have the ability to give him whatever gear I want from the nob entry.
Thus, I take a Nob and give him a waaagh banner and a TL Big Shoota and upgrade him to a Painboy.
Now that Painboy does not have a slugga and a choppa to exhange for the US and DT.
So now I can't have FNP but I can buy Cybork bodies.

I know that what I said is impossible because of the FAQ. To me this restriction is proof that the Painboy is only 30 points total.
The Painboy is under his own entry "Painboy" he is not an "option" of the squad. There is nowhere in the codex that states a Nob
is "upgraded" to a painboy. One nob in the Nob (or Flashgit) unit may BE a painboy. Not UPGRADED TO.

Every entry in the book that can take a character model has that charater listed under "Characters".
Those units are as follows: Burnaboyz, Tank Bustas, Lootas, Kommandos, Boyz, Gretchin, Stormboyz, Flashgits, Big Gunz.
These models are under their own heading in the units: Boss Snikrot, Boss Zagstruk, Kaptain Badrukk and Painboyz.
When purchasing these models in the list the FAQs say that you do not buy a basic model and upgrade it, you simply buy the character as a seperate model within the unit.

I see it either one of these ways:
I'm right and a Painboy is 30points and may not take any options or You are all right and I can give the Painboy any options I want from the options (despite what the FAQs state).

Can't add 30 points to nothing(and for the 1 nob to be a painboy it costs + 30 points, unlike the recently ruled named characters who do not cost the first member). Also with the named character ruling; the named characters are all "instead of a nob" or simply "led by", Painboyz(in both nobz and Flash gitz) has a base nob(or flash git) given the option to "be a painboy".

For the named characters, from the Ork FAQ:

Q: Several units have the option to include a named
character as a boss, are they added to the unit or, like a
nob, do they replace one of the existing boyz? (p99-
103)
A: They are added to the unit.

It is 50 Points total(but the Nobz painby can be a Biker).

By that logic a Painboy can take weapon options.

BTW 30+0=30 you can add to nothing...

No, because then he cant be a painboy.

Where does it say that?

Painboys aren't nobs. They have their own entry in the unit discriptions and under the enties in the FOC.
I stand by my word . A painboy is no different than Zagstrukk or Snikrot.
If the painboy were an upgrade wouldn't there be bitz in the nob box for him?

Most people I show the rulebook and FAQs to have been agreeing with me completely.
Even a few friends who know nothing about warhammer read it themselves and totally agree with me.

Example: I want a unit of nobs in my army. I deside I want a painboy in the squad. One of the nobs in the unit may be a painboy.
The painboy may be added to the unit for 30 points. then I want 3 more nobs. Now I'm at 110pts. These 4 models have FNP.

OR

Example: I want a unit of nobs in my army. I deside I want 4 nobs in the squad. I buy all 4 PKs. I "upgrade one to a painboy.
The painboy now has a PK and is unable to take the US and DT. These 4 models do not have FNP.

Do you see the problem here? If the Painboy is an Upgrade to a Nob I am allowed to buy him gear before turning him into a painboy.
But this clearly conflicts with both the painboy entry on page 38, 98 and 103.
Again: THE PAINBOY IS NOT UNDER OPTIONS, HE IS A SEPERATE CHARACTER!

Look its very simple one nob swaps his equipment and becomes a painboy for 30pts. If you have no nob you have no one to swap ... if you change his equipment you can't swap him ... (well may be one or two bit that don't remove weapons)

It's not that simple.

I don't think anyone understands the point I'm making.

But I'm making a call right here. Until the FAQs say one way or the other in clear explination, I'm "Upgrading" my nob for 10 points.
And since my friends all agree with me, it makes no nevermind.

It really is that simple.

A Painboy replaces his Slugga and Choppa for Docs tools and urty syringe. No slugga or Choppa, no Docs tools & urty syringe.

then you have the FAQ:
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy
armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt
upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

So you can have a unit of 4 nobz, give all of them Pks, then purchase the upgrade option for 1 nob to be a Pain boy, but the option will cost you +30 points, and provide you with 0 benefit(Painboyz have no special rules, just equipment that provides special rules). Then any of the 3 other Nobz can have the other Nob upgrades but the Painboy(in name only) cannot have any of the other upgrades.

Deffdread - Honeslty, do you even HAVE the codex? Or did someone make an argument somewhere and you just bought into it? The reason I ask, is because this is an exact quote from the codex, thats in my hands.

Painboyz
(first bullet point) One Nob may be a Painboy



Ok lets break that exact quote down shall we. 1/ONE Nob. Meaning you have to obviously have at least paid for 1 nob for 20 pts correct? Are you still with me so far? Ok so we agree on that much so far. May be a Painboy then some dots............+30.

Still with me? So at least 1 nob in your mob for 20pts.....+ the painboy upgrade for 30pts........20+30=50pts. See how that worked out?


Personally, I think you either got caught cheating by somone and trying in vain to prove your right, or you just cant understand basic math. Now, Im not going to say Im some uber genius, infact I PM people to do math hammer for me, as I suck at math, but its pretty goddamn obvious that a Painboy costs 50pts. Theres no need for a FAQ or you to continue arguing. Its right there....strait from the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Painboy and his equipment

Im not really sure anymore what exactly your point is, as your arguing in circles about all kinds of stuff, but somewhere you mentioned giving him PKs and such? Cant happen. Read under wargear of the squad in your codex. The last bullet point mentions that painboyz replace choppa and slugga with dok tools and urty seringe. Now, when buying a PK or a big shoota or whatever, youll notice the requirements for that, is replacing the choppa for a PK for XXX points, or replacing the slugga with a rokkit launcha for XXXpoints.

So since a Painboy has neither a choppa or slugga, he gets no other weapon upgrades.

DeffDred wrote:If the painboy were an upgrade wouldn't there be bitz in the nob box for him?

Like the Multimelta bitz in the Space Marine Tactical Squad box?

Most people I show the rulebook and FAQs to have been agreeing with me completely.
Even a few friends who know nothing about warhammer read it themselves and totally agree with me.

And if you're playing those people, by all means go with that interpretation. But it's not what the rules actually say.

Do you see the problem here? If the Painboy is an Upgrade to a Nob I am allowed to buy him gear before turning him into a painboy.

Except that if you buy him gear, you can't turn him into a painboy since he no longer has the equipment that he needs to swap in order to be a painboy.

There is no conflict here. You purchase your Nobs. One of those Nobs can be a painboy, for the extra points. You still need to have the Nob first, in order for him to be a painboy... otherwise, there is no Nob to be a painboy.


Note that whether you view him as an upgrade or a separate model makes no difference to whether or not he is a Nob. The wording of the upgrade (One Nob may be a Painboy) means that he is a Nob ... he's just a Nob who has a different name and statline. What stops him from taking the same gear as the rest of the Nobs is simply the way his equipment is allocated, and the FAQ response which flat out prohibits it.

Throughout all codexes, Deffdread, you 'buy' a basic clown and then pay a few more points (or lots) to upgrade them to Painboyz, Hekatrice (sp?) sergeants, etc.

Look two entries down where Burna Boyz are. Meks upgrade for free.

Do you think you get a Mek for *no* points at all?

You wrong. Ev'ry one else, right.

7 years of 40k experience talking here.

Clearly you guys just don't get it.

I'll stop only because none of you are paying attention to what I'm saying.

One last time: The Painboy is not an upgrade. He is an addition.
You add him to the unit. You do not upgrade a nob.

DeffDred wrote:Clearly you guys just don't get it.

Quite clearly, we don't see it your way, as you've got it wrong.

DeffDred wrote:I'll stop only because none of you are paying attention to what I'm saying.

One last time: The Painboy is not an upgrade. He is an addition.
You add him to the unit. You do not upgrade a nob.

I understand what you're saying. I am paying attention. You just don't have it right.

I don't agree, and neither do the rest of us. In every book, for the 7 years I've played 40k, that second listed guy is bought with additional points. Exarchs in all of the Eldar unit listings, there's a plus + sign. Sergeants in marine codexes. Aspiring Champs in in the CSM. The DE Hekatrix, Solarite, Helliarch, etc. Tau 'Ui upgrades.

Check Army List threads that include points costs and you'll see we're right.

And, what do you think of the Burna/Mek thing I brought up? Address that, if you please.

You can argue your point all you want, it doesn't make it tourny legal. Trying to argue this rule anywhere but your own man-cave would get you laughed out on the street.

DeffDred wrote:Clearly you guys just don't get it.

I'll stop only because none of you are paying attention to what I'm saying.

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that we're not paying attention. It simply means that we think you're wrong.

One last time: The Painboy is not an upgrade. He is an addition.
You add him to the unit. You do not upgrade a nob.

"One Nob may be a Painboy"

How can he be a Painboy if he doesn't exist in the first place? In order for that Nob to be a Painboy, you have to first have a Nob present.

That's where the disagreement is coming from. You're reading it to mean "The squad may include a Painboy"... while everyone else is reading it to mean "One Nob in the squad can be a Painboy"

Did you even read KingCracker's post. - Removed by insaniak. There is no need to be rude about it. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 - ... or you are simply ignoring all the posts are counteract your opinion and prove you wrong.

So by your logic I can in-fact buy an eldar exarch for +12pts irregardless of the entry. Does that make sense, 12pts for a Howling Banshee exarch?

Or how about upgrading my chaos champions. Are you saying that they are separate and that my Terminator Champions are 10pts a piece?

I bow to the wisdom of my old gaming group. Our tight circle was split ages ago buy the god of fate.
At long last, after many atempts to speak to each in turn, a judgement was made.

The vile daemon known as "Rules as written VS Rules as intended".

My blunt demand for clarity resulted in a clashing of rules debate between the elders Harcore-Hobbiest and Astartes Addict.
Hardecore unfolded the great tapestry of reason and thus declaired, to calm Nerd-rage and Wife-Whipped...

"Oh... alright... Ah, I see what you mean. Okay, I see where you're coming from, but the guys on Dakka are right about the points.
But, I totally agree with your logic.I see what you mean with the whole "upgrade vs addition".
That's GWs fault for... kinda blending the line on the unit titles (refering to my argument on "Painboy" being the same location as the character additions).
It's obvious that you can't really do anything with a painboy and there is the '+'. I thing the plus is the turning point there.
Why is this such a big deal? What do you need these 20 points for, anyway?"

"Nothin' really. If I spend the points on my looted wagon, I can give it a second skorcha."

"Why the hell do you even have a first skorcha?"

"My burnas are gonna be riding in it. Im going to call itthe Burny Bus."

"Dude... You're an idiot. I have to get back to work... I think these calls get recorded."

Sorry everyone for being so stuborn.

To touch on another aspect brought up by the OP, I'm not sure how the painboy text is somehow similar to adding the special characters, as the OP states.

Have a look at the special characters that are bought as additions to their respective squads; Kaptin Badrukk, Boss Zagstruk, and Snikrott.

In the case of Kaptin Badrukk, he is an addition to the Flashgit squad, irrespective of what you purchase for the squad, and his cost is in addition to the cost of the squad he is attatched to.

However, Zagstruk and Snikrott are different - they are not automatic additions, they are replacements. Instead of a nob, you may rather include the special character. I suspect this is what the OP is trying to use to validate his claims - that he believes that the painboy works the same way.

It's quite clear though, that it does not. The special characters in this clase replace the nob, where in the case of the painboy, the nob becomes the painboy.

Interestingly, note how the costs of the special characters (which apply to this example) are presented compared to the painboy. The special characters have no "+" before their cost, whereas the painboy's cost does indeed have that "+".

But ultimately, it comes down to the way it's written. "One nob may be a Painboy......... +30pts". There is no replacement cited here, the text honestly isn't functionally similar to how the special characters function.

If the painboy were to only cost 30pts, the rules would have been written to represent that, by saying "the unit may include a painboy....... +30pts", or even "one nob may instead be a Painboy......... 30pts".

Welcome to the world of GW rules. Bring your lawyer(s).

Yes, exactly. The (+) is really what swayed my thoughts.

I didn't have a run in with another player or anything. I wasn't even trying squeeze in an extra PK.
I tuely thought I saw a way to save points to be able to make a transport wysiwyg .

DeffDred wrote:I bow to the wisdom of my old gaming group. Our tight circle was split ages ago buy the god of fate.
At long last, after many atempts to speak to each in turn, a judgement was made.

The vile daemon known as "Rules as written VS Rules as intended".

My blunt demand for clarity resulted in a clashing of rules debate between the elders Harcore-Hobbiest and Astartes Addict.
Hardecore unfolded the great tapestry of reason and thus declaired, to calm Nerd-rage and Wife-Whipped...

"Oh... alright... Ah, I see what you mean. Okay, I see where you're coming from, but the guys on Dakka are right about the points.
But, I totally agree with your logic.I see what you mean with the whole "upgrade vs addition".
That's GWs fault for... kinda blending the line on the unit titles (refering to my argument on "Painboy" being the same location as the character additions).
It's obvious that you can't really do anything with a painboy and there is the '+'. I thing the plus is the turning point there.
Why is this such a big deal? What do you need these 20 points for, anyway?"

"Nothin' really. If I spend the points on my looted wagon, I can give it a second skorcha."

"Why the hell do you even have a first skorcha?"

"My burnas are gonna be riding in it. Im going to call itthe Burny Bus."

"Dude... You're an idiot. I have to get back to work... I think these calls get recorded."

Sorry everyone for being so stuborn.

Just another point here.

Looted wagons don't get the option to have 2 skorchas

It says 'may take ONE of the following (emphasis mine).

For one second forget the wording in the codex and look at the raw point cost for the upgrade and consider the designers intent.

I belive a 10pts upgrade to give a unit fnp is undercosted compared to all other codex.