Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DeathReaper wrote:... and they (Do not) count as moving whether they do or not.

Why not?

ATSKNF does not say that they never count as moving. It says that they don't count as moving regardless of whether they do or not. Meaning that if they don't move, then they don't still count as moving anyway, as everyone else does.

DeathReaper wrote:Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule

So units with ATSKNF can regroup and move 3" (Because thats what the regroup rules say) and they (Do not) count as moving whether they do or not.

as per the reading of ATSKNF.

You are taking a "not always" for a "never" there. Normal troops always count as moving whether they do or not. Space Marines on the other hand do not follow this restriction, IE they do not ALWAYS count as moving whether they do or not. In other words, if they stand still they count as stationary where other models would still count as moving. If they move, they count as moving. Nothing in the above phrase prevents that. The more I analyze the words of ATSKNF the more I am starting to side with my friends argument.

If your argument were correct, they would be able to move 3" for regrouping, then move 6" and still count as being stationary, because they would NEVER count as moving whether they do or not. That's not the wording, so the interpretation is incorrect.

Aldarionn wrote:If your argument were correct, they would be able to move 3" for regrouping, then move 6" and still count as being stationary, because they would NEVER count as moving whether they do or not. That's not the wording, so the interpretation is incorrect.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The regroup rules are worded as such that the unit always counts as moving when regrouping; if the ATSKNF rule did say that they never count as moving when regrouping (which is exactly what the other argument is), then they would be able to move 9" and not count as moving. You can't have one without the other.

I'm starting to think that it was intended to count as moving if they did, but if they stay still then they are (obviously) stationary.

The rules about them 'always count as moving whether they do or not' refer to them making the 3" consolidate or not.

either way the ATSKNF says they ignore that they 'always count as moving' when they regroup

that can only mean they do not always count as moving when they make their 3 inch regroup.

DeathReaper wrote:The rules about them 'always count as moving whether they do or not' refer to them making the 3" consolidate or not.

No, that's not right. That phrase refers to ALL movement. A normal unit cannot move normally (IE they may only move 3") and they always count as moving whether they do or not. A Space Marine ignores this restriction. He does NOT ALWAYS count as moving whether he does or not. That is NOT the same as NEVER counting as moving whether he does or not. Not always /= never. If he moves, he counts as moving. If he doesn't move, he counts as stationary where another unit would still count as moving.

DeathReaper wrote:either way the ATSKNF says they ignore that they 'always count as moving' when they regroup

that can only mean they do not always count as moving when they make their 3 inch regroup.

The 3" movement is not mandatory. It is an option, as part of regrouping. Your sentence should read "do not always count as moving when they regroup."

"Do not always count as moving" is not the same thing as "never count as moving." A normal model would count as moving even if they didn't move the 3". A Space Marine can opt to stand still and count as stationary. However, if they move the 3", they have moved and thus count as moving.

Do you see where your argument is falling apart here?

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or do not"

That bit covers how the normal regroup thing works. The 'usually' is there to cover other special rules which exist regarding regrouping (not sure if there are any, but that is what it is for).

"These restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule"

This is the bit that covers models with the 'and they shall know no fear' special rule. The restriction of counting as having moved does not apply. There is no bending in this phrase, no maybe this or maybe that. The restriction does not apply. They can move the 3" and fire a heavy weapon, because the restrictions do not apply. They can move the 3" and move an additional 6" during their movement phase, because the restrictions do not apply.

Edit: and I do so love it when I find myself on the side of nos and death reaper on these things, it stops me having to argue with some probably (i say probably because I don't know them, not as a slight) very intelligent people, which is always hard

Yes, but you are misconstruing what those restrictions are. "Always count as moving whether they do or not" is the restriction in question here. We all agree that Space Marines can move an additional 6" on top of the 3" granted as an option for Regrouping, and if they move that 6" they will count as moving.

If they ignore the restriction completely, they will not count as moving whether they do or not. That is the 100% inverse of the restriction.

- Always count as moving whether they do or not
- Never count as moving whether they do or not

For your argument to hold weight, we MUST accept that Space Marines that Regroup may move 9" and still fire a heavy weapon. The restriction makes no mention of the 3" specifically. It simply references movement. That doesn't make sense and is clearly against the intent.

For it to make ANY sense at all, "ignoring the restriction" must mean "do not always count as moving whether they do or not" which means if they stand still, they count as stationary, but if they move, they count as moving. What is a 3" move? Movement. They must count as moving.

The fact that we are arguing over semantics in wording just stresses the fact that is is a poorly written rule (shock!) and that it needs clarification (that we likely won't get before 6th edition).

Where are you pulling this 'if they ignore the restriction completely, they will not count as moving after moving 6"' from. That is your incorrect, confusing interpretation. Do not interpret my argument incorrectly and tell me what just plain wrong parameters 'MUST' be accepted by anyone reading my argument. That unfairly biases anyone reading this to your interpretation by affixing your inaccurate interpretations to my argument.

It references the movement made as a part of the regroup. Not regular movement, simply regroup movement. Yes, 'what is a 3" move? Movement.' Brava, brava, but you fail to understand that it is not regular movement, but a special kind of movement, which the rule specifically caters to.

motyak wrote:Where are you pulling this 'if they ignore the restriction completely, they will not count as moving after moving 6"' from. That is your incorrect, confusing interpretation. Do not interpret my argument incorrectly and tell me what just plain wrong parameters 'MUST' be accepted by anyone reading my argument. That unfairly biases anyone reading this to your interpretation by affixing your inaccurate interpretations to my argument.

You're right; this interpretation is incorrect. That's the whole point.

To be clear, there are two camps:

One is saying that ATSKNF ignores the "always counts as moving when the unit regroups" restriction, meaning that they do not count as moving when the unit regroups.

The other is saying that ATSKNF ignores the "always counts as moving when the unit regroups" restriction, meaning that they do not necessarily always count as moving, but if they make any movement then they have moved for shooting purposes.

The bolded part in your quote comes from people who are in the latter group (such as myself) bringing the argument of the former group to its logical conclusion: the regrouping rules state that the unit always counts as moving when they regroup; if ATSKNF said that they never count as moving when they regroup (i.e. the former argument), then that line would apply to all of the unit's movement that turn. Hence, the unit would not count as moving, even if it moved the 3+6" - which is false.

It references the movement made as a part of the regroup. Not regular movement, simply regroup movement. Yes, 'what is a 3" move? Movement.' Brava, brava, but you fail to understand that it is not regular movement, but a special kind of movement, which the rule specifically caters to.

You may find that closer reading of the regrouping rules would prove this argument to be false. At no point do they say that the unit counts as moving for the 3" move only; they say that the unit always counts as moving whether it does or not. Nothing to do with any "special movement" at all.

Cheexsta wrote:
The bolded part in your quote comes from people who are in the latter group (such as myself) bringing the argument of the former group to its logical conclusion: the regrouping rules state that the unit always counts as moving when they regroup; if ATSKNF said that they never count as moving when they regroup (i.e. the former argument), then that line would apply to all of the unit's movement that turn. Hence, the unit would not count as moving, even if it moved the 3+6" - which is false.

It is only the logical conclusion that you think it can be brought to. You are doing the same thing as the other bloke, please stop adding things to the other sides argument to try and show that it is incorrect, when the things you are adding are only your opinion, while not stating it as clearly this.

Cheexsta wrote:You may find that closer reading of the regrouping rules would prove this argument to be false. At no point do they say that the unit counts as moving for the 3" move only; they say that the unit always counts as moving whether it does or not. Nothing to do with any "special movement" at all.

No, I did not find that it proved it to be false upon my initial, or further reading. Perhaps 'special' was the wrong word to choose, but it is not regular movement. It is movement which only occurs during regrouping, has special rules surrounding it, I would definitely view that as, if not 'special', then something similar.

'If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal).
Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always counts as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance.'

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or do not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule"

The restrictions mentioned in the regrouping rule; it cannot otherwise move, it counts as moving for shooting purposes.
Then 'And They Shall Know No Fear" (the second quote) states that the restrictions do not apply. I cannot see how there is an argument, it states explicit restrictions, and then says that the restrictions are ignored. It doesn't then say 'and if you move 6" as part of the regular movement phase you can then shoot heavy weapons' because it is only ignoring the restrictions of the regrouping move, not of the normal movement phase movement.

'If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal).
Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always counts as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance.'

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or do not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule"

The restrictions mentioned in the regrouping rule; it cannot otherwise move, it counts as moving for shooting purposes.
Then 'And They Shall Know No Fear" (the second quote) states that the restrictions do not apply. I cannot see how there is an argument, it states explicit restrictions, and then says that the restrictions are ignored. It doesn't then say 'and if you move 6" as part of the regular movement phase you can then shoot heavy weapons' because it is only ignoring the restrictions of the regrouping move, not of the normal movement phase movement.

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or do not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule"

Break the sentence down:

1. Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally.
2. Usually troops that regroup always count as moving, whether they [move] or not.
3. These restrictions do not apply.

(1) is clear, we don't need to address that.
Some people are interpreting (2) as being changed to "troops with ATSKNF do not count as moving, whether they move or not" because of the ATSKNF rule. This does not specifically refer to the "regroup move" as you claim - it just talks about movement. It's this interpretation that I (and others) are attacking, because if it's true, then it must apply to all kinds of movement, because it makes no distinction between different types of movement.

For clarity, I interpret (2) as just being outright ignored. That way, if a unit regroups and does not move, there is no longer a rule saying that the unit counts as moving so the unit may fire heavy weapons. If the unit moves at all, then it may not fire heavy weapons (Relentless units notwithstanding), because those are the normal rules for heavy weapons.

Ech we aren't going to agree, are we. I hate when both sides have an interpretation that has positives, it means it just drags on and on

Tell me about it. I used to have one very politically opinionated friend who was no fun at all to drink with...

We've said our respective pieces. I rewrote that last post about ten times before posting it, I don't think I can make my argument any clearer (though I will admit that the whole "move 6 inches and fire heavies" was a bit pointless, but the rest of it still stands).

I know your pain on the political mate.
Are you from southside brisbane by chance? If so want a game after uni is done and dusted?

Edit: This is way off topic this post...

I'm going to refrain from further extensive comment this evening because I'm in a foul mood after the Chargers shameful loss to the Chiefs, and I don't trust myself not to cause a flame war because of it . I just wanted to say that what Cheexsta says basically sums up my argument in a more eloquent manner than I would have been able to accomplish, so I second his posts.

motyak wrote:I know your pain on the political mate.
Are you from southside brisbane by chance? If so want a game after uni is done and dusted?

Edit: This is way off topic this post...

Yep, OT discussion taken to PM

Motyak, look up the rules for Heavy Weapons and Rapid Fire as well, When these weapons reference Movement do the reference 'Regular Movement' or do they just reference 'Movement' meaning all movement?

Saiisil, we had already resolved it in that the two sides are pretty unlikely to agree. Short of a miracle, that is.
I think the heavy weapons and rapid fire section you are talking about is made superfluous by the statement in ATSKNF that they ignore restrictions. But that is just me.
Cheexta and I had already reached the point that the argument is over, theres no point going on

sorry I was away from the internet for over 24 hours because I was with my other half as our daughter was being born. I posted my last post because I wanted to have that out in the open because I did not see it mentioned in any posts made while I was gone. As I would now like to point out that ATSKNF ignore the restrictions placed on a unit by the regroup rules not by the weapon type rules.