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The question is in the title. If a unit of Space Marines fails a morale test and falls back, then regroups on their turn and moves the 3" allowed by the regroup rules, do they count as stationary or moving?

From the Rulebook on regrouping:
....If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal).

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always counts as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance.....

From ATSKNF:
......Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule.....

A friend of mine insists that while ATSKNF allows Space Marines to move normally in the movement phase, it does not allow them to count as stationary if they only move the 3" allowed by regrouping successfully due to the underlined wording. I believe he is wrong, and the last line of the section I quoted above removes ALL restrictions, and allows a unit to count as stationary even if they move the 3".

Thoughts?

Yep you make a 3" consoldation and then can fire a heavy weapon if you are a space marine.

You are still stationary, as the rule about "moving" does not apply to you. Only if you choose to move the 6" normal move would you count as having moved.

Tri wrote:Yep you make a 3" consoldation and then can fire a heavy weapon if you are a space marine.

Does that mean a SM unit that regroups can make a further 6" movement after the 3"?

The way I have always read the rules is that the 3" is a limitation placed upon the unit when it regroups and it is pointless not to take because they count as moving regardless yet for SM with ATSKNF ignore that limitation and if they stand still they are stationary.

You Get both "moves" yes.

One more vote with the others, Aldarionn:

SM get the 3". And then do anything normal.

Move. Or stay still and fire a heavy wep.

'cuz dayz spehshul.

Saiisil wrote:

Tri wrote:Yep you make a 3" consoldation and then can fire a heavy weapon if you are a space marine.

Does that mean a SM unit that regroups can make a further 6" movement after the 3"?

The way I have always read the rules is that the 3" is a limitation placed upon the unit when it regroups and it is pointless not to take because they count as moving regardless yet for SM with ATSKNF ignore that limitation and if they stand still they are stationary.

from the FAQ
Q. When a unit with the And They Shall Know no Fear
special rule regroups do they get to immediately move up
to 3" as well as moving as normal that turn? (p51)
A. Yes.

Actually, the argument that my friend makes is that ATSKNF removes the restrictions for MOVING FURTHER, but not for moving the 3".

......Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule.....

He claims that the second half of the above line only refers to the first half. IE, that "these restrictions" are simply "cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not" which does not preclude that you have moved 3" and have thus moved in the movement phase, and therefore count as having moved.

Does that more specific argument change anyones opinion?

Aldarionn wrote:Actually, the argument that my friend makes is that ATSKNF removes the restrictions for MOVING FURTHER, but not for moving the 3".

......Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule.....

He claims that the second half of the above line only refers to the first half. IE, that "these restrictions" are simply "cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not" which does not preclude that you have moved 3" and have thus moved in the movement phase, and therefore count as having moved.

Does that more specific argument change anyones opinion?

Nope. Still stationary.

Yeah that seemed like the most likely answer. The problem I see (and the likely reason behind the argument my friend is making) is the inclusion of the line "whether they do or not."

If we break down the actual quoted phrase, there are about 10,000 things wrong with it.

1{Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally} and 2{always count as moving} 3{whether they do or not}, but 4{these restrictions} 5{do not apply to models subject to this special rule}

Lets take this line by line.

Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally - Essentially this is referring to other models that do not benefit from ATSKNF. These models cannot move normally after regrouping, so we have established one restriction. However, these models may STILL move 3", which we know must be ABNORMAL movement, since they cannot move normally.

always count as moving - This is tied to the first section, and establishes a second restriction. Models that regroup always count as moving.

whether they do or not - This line is redundant. Models that cannot move normally would not count as moving if they did or not, because they CANT move normally in the first place, and always count as moving anyway. Why is this line even there?

these restrictions - So now we use this line in reference to the above restrictions we have established. Models that Regroup cannot move normally. Models that regroup always count as moving. With me so far?

do not apply to models subject to this special rule - This line tells you what the models do with the restrictions listed. They ignore them. That said, they ONLY ignore THOSE restrictions.

The rule does not allow you to ignore movement. It simply allows you to ignore the "always counts as moving" restriction. In other words, if you Regroup and stand still, you do not count as moving and may fire heavy weapons, or rapid-fire weapons up to their maximum range, etc...

So we come down to the question of the 3" move. Nowhere in the above sentence is the 3" move mentioned, however it is implied that the 3" movement is ABNORMAL, since Regrouping models cannot perform normal movement. So does abnormal movement in the movement phase count as having moved for purposes of firing heavy weapons?

I don't know. Honestly I don't think so, because it's abnormal and outside of the standard movement rules, and I believe the intent of the rule is to allow Space Marines to take the 3" move as a bonus and then have a complete phase to do as they wish.

But this is the basis for my friends argument, and I sort of see his point.

A Move is an established thing, up to 6" in the movement phase.

Since ATSKNF models ignore "these restrictions" about "always count as moving" they do not "always count as moving" so they can regroup up to 3" and stay stationary to fire heavy weapons.

That's how I would interpret it. But I would be remiss if I did not include my friends argument in full, hence the above post. Personally I don't believe the 3" move for regrouping should count as movement as it's simply a means of re-positioning the unit to your liking, so I agree with you.

The only issue I have with that is this, even though the regroup movement is an 'abnormal movement' it is still movement. Myself as a Blood Angels player have always played it that if they move just 1 inch they move but then I never added the 3" to any movement I make due to that FAQ (which I missed somehow). Even with that extra 3" allotment I would still consider it movement here is why, unit moves from X 3" to Y because of regroup, has the unit moved? yes it has moved, is it a normal movement? no it isn't, but is it movement? yes it is.

No, the unit has not moved because of ATSKNF.

Since the "always count as moving" parts "do not apply to models subject to this special rule" (ATSKNF).

So if they regroup they ignore the "always count as moving" bit because that is what tells you that they count as moving when the make the regroup move.

They get to ignore the part that says they count as moving, so the remain stationary even if they have regrouped up to 3"

What I am trying to say is that the 3" regroup movement is still movement and it isn't a mandatory movement it is an optional movement. This is why I believe if the move even with only the regroup movement they can not fire the heavy weapon because the rule for the heavy weapon is 'if the unit moves' it doesn't specify if it moves using normal movement just if it moves.

Hey if I am wrong about this movement meaning that the models have/haven't moved thing I am wrong but I don't think any TO would let anyone by on that.

Right, If the unit moved.

Units with ATSKNF do not count as moving when they make the 3" regroup.

They get to ignore the part that says they count as moving, so the 3" regroup is not movement for units with ATSKNF.

To be honest, that just sounds fishy to me. How does movement not count as movement?

Because in the rule it says it doesn't count as movement.

It does? where does it say that specifically?

Saiisil wrote:It does? where does it say that specifically?

Grab Codex:SM and read ATSKNF

I have and I see no where in ATSKNF where it says that they count as stationary even if they move the 'regroup move' I see where it says that they aren't prevented from moving and where it says that they don't always count as moving regardless of if they move or not but I do not see it saying "if they choose to make the 3" regroup move they count as not moving"

No, but it DOES say they ignore the part about always counting as having moved if they do move 3".

You'd also be wrong about TOs lettting it by - given we follow the rules, in the main, this is perfectly well known and "gets by" us a lot.

Where exactly does it say that in this 'Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule'? neither here nor anywhere else does it say that.

Wait, so 3" consolidation doesn't take place during the movement phase, or does it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, but it DOES say they ignore the part about always counting as having moved if they do move 3".

No it doesn't. It says that they ignore the part about always counting as moving whether they do or not. It doesn't say that they don't count as moving if they do move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

junk wrote:Wait, so 3" consolidation doesn't take place during the movement phase, or does it?

Consolidation takes place in the assault phase.

The 3" move for regrouping takes place in the movement phase.

Ahh, I think I see what Saiisil is saying.

It's like saying this:
"I do not always eat with a fork."

Is not the same as this:
"I always do not eat with a fork." (Or, more correctly, "I never eat with a fork.")

The ATSKNF rule is essentially saying:
"Space Marines do not always count as moving on the turn they regroup."

In other words, the ATSKNF rule is telling the reader to completely ignore the existence of those restrictions. They are not there. It does not actually say that they do not count as moving; it just says that they don't always count as moving.

In light of that, if a Space Marine unit regroups and moves 3", does it count as moving?

I'm not completely sure whether or not I agree with this, but it's worth considering.

... it is an interesting view point. I could have sworn that they tell you it doesn't count but I'm damned if i can find anything that backs that up. Ok i take back what i said earlier you can consolidate 3" and move 6" or you can stay still and shoot heavy weapons.


On a side note ...
Q. If Marneus Calgar chooses to pass a Morale Check
using his God of War special rule does he, and any unit
he has joined, take Wounds from the No Retreat!
special rule? (p84)
A. No.
...with that little rule change he just became a much better character.

Cheexsta wrote:Ahh, I think I see what Saiisil is saying.

It's like saying this:
"I do not always eat with a fork."

Is not the same as this:
"I always do not eat with a fork." (Or, more correctly, "I never eat with a fork.")

The ATSKNF rule is essentially saying:
"Space Marines do not always count as moving on the turn they regroup."

In other words, the ATSKNF rule is telling the reader to completely ignore the existence of those restrictions. They are not there. It does not actually say that they do not count as moving; it just says that they don't always count as moving.

In light of that, if a Space Marine unit regroups and moves 3", does it count as moving?

I'm not completely sure whether or not I agree with this, but it's worth considering.

This is the EXACT point of view my friend is expressing. It says they do not ALWAYS count as having moved, which is not the same as they NEVER count as having moved. Thus, if they move the 3", they have moved in the movement phase and thus cannot fire heavy weapons, nor can they fire Rapid Fire weapons at max range.

And I see his point, I really do, but it's so ambiguously worded that I'm really not sure which is right. I think the INTENT is that Space Marines are supposed to get the 3" move for free with no restrictions, and should then be able to act as normal (IE move 3" and fire as if stationary, or move 3" and an additional 6" and fire as if they moved), but that doesn't appear to be what the rule says.

Sometimes I wonder if GW actually TRIES to make the wording of their rules as convoluted as possible.

Cheexsta wrote:In light of that, if a Space Marine unit regroups and moves 3", does it count as moving?

Since nothing in the rules says that they don't, yes, they moved... and so they moved.

If theydidn't move, then they wouldn't count as moving, whereas models without ATSKNF would.

Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule

So units with ATSKNF can regroup and move 3" (Because thats what the regroup rules say) and they (Do not) count as moving whether they do or not.

as per the reading of ATSKNF.