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Those stats are just ridicoulus. A Space Marine is not more powerful than a Hive Tyrant/Autarch/Chaos Lord/Any non-Space Marine over-elite.

This thread increased my Space Marine hate with +5.

1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1+

everything is a PR campaign and 1+ plot armour save

Seriously though, i think the stats fit the fluff i prefer (older stuff, mainly), rather than the fanwank BL pumps out

Ascalam wrote:
Seriously though, i think the stats fit the fluff i prefer (older stuff, mainly), rather than the fanwank BL pumps out

It's a fluff element as far back at 3rd edition of Marines takign entire worlds.

Older stuff - 1st and second edition

I've been playing since RT.

Back then they were usually portrayed as having a last stand somewhere, heaped with bodies around them, being heroic.

These days the heroism feel is gone, replaced by an autowin button that just leaves me cold.

*edit* i have no problem with SM taking worlds. I played SM back then. I DO think it should take more than a couple of squads to do it though

Ascalam wrote:Older stuff - 1st and second edition

I've been playing since RT.

Back then they were usually portrayed as having a last stand somewhere, heaped with bodies around them, being heroic.

These days the heroism feel is gone, replaced by an autowin button that just leaves me cold.

*edit* i have no problem with SM taking worlds. I played SM back then. I DO think it should take more than a couple of squads to do it though

Your assurances leaves me cold...

Good for you.

Some of the more recent fluff is so far beyond fanfic that i'm amazed people keep swallowing it.

Or do you think 20 guys can really take a whole world on their tod (by stomping arond in armour and shooting folk) , leaving thousands of their foes scattered around dead, but somehow never needing to reload or resupply?

Ascalam wrote:Good for you.

Some of the more recent fluff is so far beyond fanfic that i'm amazed people keep swallowing it.

Or do you think 20 guys can really take a whole world on their tod (by stomping arond in armour and shooting folk) , leaving thousands of their foes scattered around dead, but somehow never needing to reload or resupply?

The only time I recall that kind of number is when three Scout squads were stated to have helped end a rebellion in hours in the latest Marine Codex.

Gree wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Good for you.

Some of the more recent fluff is so far beyond fanfic that i'm amazed people keep swallowing it.

Or do you think 20 guys can really take a whole world on their tod (by stomping arond in armour and shooting folk) , leaving thousands of their foes scattered around dead, but somehow never needing to reload or resupply?

The only time I recall that kind of number is when three Scout squads were stated to have helped end a rebellion in hours in the latest Marine Codex.

Even 2000 marines would be, at least if we apply any kind of logic, not sufficient to truly conquer a defended world.
On the other hand just 20 marines might be sufficient to deactive a crucial defence laser that keeps the Imperial Guard from landing on that world without suffering crippling losses.

You have one (admittedly uber) marine holding off a whole waaagh in there too

Apparently everyone forgot to bring ammo, and took a 3 day nap while he was there.

Fall of Damnos has a tiny force (a couple of squads, a few dreads and some drop pods) take on an entire world of Necrons, and take diddly in losses as they cakewalk the world.

The soul drinker novels.. my head hurts just thinkiing about them...

Purging of Kallidus. Tiny, tiny marine force VS a worlds worth of orks...

(ok, so maybe more than a pair of tac squads, but still far too big an imbalance on the odds)

Ascalam wrote:You have one (admittedly uber) marine holding off a whole waaagh in there too

Calgar is stated to have held off a greenskin horde for a night and a day at a gate. We have no information on the size of the greenskin horde, or how well they would be armed (If it wasa a bunch of stick-armed Boyz then I doubt they would do much against Terminator armor)

Ascalam wrote:
Fall of Damnos has a tiny force (a couple of squads, a few dreads and some drop pods) take on an entire world of Necrons, and take diddly in losses as they cakewalk the world.

That's.......not really accurate. The Cryptek at the end of the novel makes it clear that only a fraction of the Tomb World's might has awoken and an Ultramarines sergeant notes that the Ultramarines are taken rather heavy losses. It is most certainly not a calkwalk as you claim. Of course a Necron Tomb World is a planet full of immortal death machines so that's only to be expected.

Ascalam wrote:
Purging of Kallidus. Tiny, tiny marine force VS a worlds worth of orks...

(ok, so maybe more than a pair of tac squads, but still far too big an imbalance on the odds)

I've not read the novel but rather the Codex description of the purging and at least a battle company was involved correct? We have multiple precedents for a single company of Marines clearing a world of orks.

I doubt it was a dozen stick armed hippy ork pacifists.

One marine, even in terminator, is NOT standing off the concerted firepower of even a dozen shootas for long, let alone anything a bit more robust. Orks that are laying seige to a place will generally have a good number of them there, plus artillery, dreads etc

They take pretty tiny losses, actually, if you read the novel. The tomb world as a whole hasn't awoken, but the Marines still breeze through a massively imbalanced amount of enemies, losing a couple of troopers here and there. The Necrons go down like chumps, barely doing a thing to the UM in return. Given that the Fall of Damnos is suppsed to be an overwhelming and swift NECRON victory, with the UM making a few quick extraction missions and bailing for deep deep space.... They take heavy losses for the titchy force they took down, but the force they took down was massively insufficient for the threat. The amount of losses they inflict is still very much out of whack.

I'll reread Kallidus, and get back to you on that one. I do recall it being a very small force. There are examples of battle companies taking whole worlds in the BL fluff, but that's kindof my point. Orks aren't that weak, and 100 SM have little chance of doing it, logically, as they will be plowed down by the several million orks on the planet, eben assuming they have never-empty bolters and their armour never takes damage.


**edit** Kallidus has the dark Angels 3rd company, slightly reinforced.

Faced off against Waaagh Ghazgkull and Waagh Nazdreg IIRC. It mentions thousands of columns of orks. Not thousands of orks, thousands of units of them.

Ascalam wrote:I doubt it was a dozen stick armed hippy ork pacifists.

I never claimed it was, however feral orks groups certainly exist in the Warhammer world and primatively armed orks are not uncommon.

Ascalam wrote:

One marine, even in terminator, is NOT standing off the concerted firepower of even a dozen shootas for long,

A single Marine wearing tank-grade power armor should hold off the firepower of a dozen shootas with ease in fact. We have feats of them tanking bolter rounds and autocannon rounds. What are essentially upgunned autoguns should do nothing. Black Reach even notes that the only shootas able to penatrate Astartes power armor is the same type of shoota that can punch through a Leman Russ's armor plating, and those are explicitly special an unique shootas. Normal shootas will be quite ineffective against Astartes.

And Terminator armor? The Armor explicitly stated to impervious to small arms fire and resistant to even tank-busting weapons? Shoota fire won’t be doing anything my friend.

Ascalam wrote:
Orks that are laying seige to a place will generally have a good number of them there, plus artillery, dreads etc

Which we have absolutely no proof of course. Again, we have examples of feral orks and poorly armed ork warbands before. (We even had an army list which allowed you to play as feral orks before)

Ascalam wrote:
They take pretty tiny losses, actually, if you read the novel. The tomb world as a whole hasn't awoken, but the Marines still breeze through a massively imbalanced amount of enemies, losing a couple of troopers here and there.

Apparently the opinion of the sergeant and that of the Codex would disagree with you. And they certainly don’t breeze through a massively imbalanced amount of enemies. The Necrons give them quite a bit of trouble.

Ascalam wrote:
The Necrons go down like chumps, barely doing a thing to the UM in return.

Never read that at all.

Ascalam wrote:
Given that the Fall of Damnos is suppsed to be an overwhelming and swift NECRON victory, with the UM making a few quick extraction missions and bailing for deep deep space.... They take heavy losses for the titchy force they took down, but the force they took down was massively insufficient for the threat. The amount of losses they inflict is still very much out of whack.

Not at all. Nothing the Astartes take out in the novel is beyond their capacities or usual. Can you give me more specific examples to support your claim?

Ascalam wrote:I
I'll reread Kallidus, and get back to you on that one. I do recall it being a very small force. There are examples of battle companies taking whole worlds in the BL fluff, but that's kindof my point. Orks aren't that weak, and 100 SM have little chance of doing it, logically, as they will be plowed down by the several million orks on the planet, eben assuming they have never-empty bolters and their armour never takes damage.

An Astartes would not need to fight several million orks. Beheading the horde by killing the Warboss would most likely result in the factions coming apart in civil war, allowing the Astartes to pick them off piecemeal and leave the Guard to clean up.

Of course they would just eliminate any orks in non-strategic areas by orbital bombardment. I’m reminded of a moment in Last Chancers when a rebel army ventures outside their defenses to attack a Guard regiment and they get promptly annihilated from orbit by an Imperial Cruiser.

If I had to assume an Space Marine company vs an ork Waaaggh of several million orks would result in most of the orks being annihilated by orbital bombardment with the Astartes taking out ork leaders, strategic orks locations like factories or Ork roks and leaving the guard of PDF to clean up whatever’s left.

The Astartes don’t have to personally kill every last ork on the planet. They just have to break their a ability to wage war, which they are certainly able to do.

In the black library books I have read, space marines are pretty worthless actually. Seems like they are often potrayed as blow-hards they don't actually do much rather than some great ally to have on the battlefield.

I do read IG centered books though. And as we all know IG beat chaos marines with toothpicks, gum and rubberband.

I never claimed it was, however feral orks groups certainly exist in the Warhammer world and primatively armed orks are not uncommon. Possible, but unlikely that it was feral orks with sticks at the seige of Zalathas, or the locals would have had no problem putting them down. By 'Ork Force' they usually mean a force of orks that is actually tooled up to wage war

Ascalam wrote:

One marine, even in terminator, is NOT standing off the concerted firepower of even a dozen shootas for long,

A single Marine wearing tank-grade power armor should hold off the firepower of a dozen shootas with ease in fact. We have feats of them tanking bolter rounds and autocannon rounds. What are essentially upgunned autoguns should do nothing.

There are weak spots in any suit of armour. Terminator armor is no exception. If it was they'd be immune to shootas in game, wouldn't they Sooner or later a shot will get lucky and hit something important, especially over a 24 hour span of continual fire. Remember that Shootas are just as powerful as bolters, though firing solid slugs at high velocity instead of mass-reactive rounds. Bolters have been portrayed in the fluff as being able to cut through power armour with relative ease.

And Terminator armor? The Armor explicitly stated to impervious to small arms fire and resistant to even tank-busting weapons? Shoota fire won’t be doing anything my friend.

- Look at a suit of termie armour sometime. The design is poor. Sooner or later a slug will lodge in a joint, disabling it, or damage a weak spot. There are several places on the armour that could be an issue. Also, Orks never have just shootas Hit him with a few KMB, improbably sized rokkits, power klaws (which just flat out ignore your inpenetrable armour), Zzapp guns (whick cook you inside it..) etc..

Ascalam wrote:
Orks that are laying seige to a place will generally have a good number of them there, plus artillery, dreads etc

Which we have absolutely no proof of course. Again, we have examples of feral orks and poorly armed ork warbands before. (We even had an army list which allowed you to play as feral orks before) -

when have you ever read of an ork force comprising entirely of Boyz, with no support or guns beyond sluggas? Prove to me that these orks came that light to a fight. Orks like to bring seige weapons to seiges, oddly enough

Ascalam wrote:
They take pretty tiny losses, actually, if you read the novel. The tomb world as a whole hasn't awoken, but the Marines still breeze through a massively imbalanced amount of enemies, losing a couple of troopers here and there.

Apparently the opinion of the sergeant and that of the Codex would disagree with you. And they certainly don’t breeze through a massively imbalanced amount of enemies. The Necrons give them quite a bit of trouble.

The sergeant is commenting on the fact that ( as the SM were dumb enough to take a tiny ass force down with them), and that that tiny force had sustained some serious damage. Compared to the several lords they kill off, the dozens of wraiths, whole units of warriors and immortals etc etc i'd call it imbalanced. i can go through the book and get a loss/win ratio if you like, but i think you'll find the marines are doing rather well against units that are statistically the same or better than them, in fluff or out

Ascalam wrote:
The Necrons go down like chumps, barely doing a thing to the UM in return.

Never read that at all. - Apparently you need to read it again then The Necrons don't make a very good showing.

Ascalam wrote:
Given that the Fall of Damnos is supposed to be an overwhelming and swift NECRON victory, with the UM making a few quick extraction missions and bailing for deep deep space.... They take heavy losses for the titchy force they took down, but the force they took down was massively insufficient for the threat. The amount of losses they inflict is still very much out of whack.

Not at all. Nothing the Astartes take out in the novel is beyond their capacities or usual. Can you give me more specific examples to support your claim? - Monolith with a meltabomb, when the novel was released before the new dex One small unit plus Sicarius taking out dozens of wraiths, losing three marines for dozens of them plus a named IC Lord. (possible, but unlikely)

Ascalam wrote:I
I'll reread Kallidus, and get back to you on that one. I do recall it being a very small force. There are examples of battle companies taking whole worlds in the BL fluff, but that's kindof my point. Orks aren't that weak, and 100 SM have little chance of doing it, logically, as they will be plowed down by the several million orks on the planet, eben assuming they have never-empty bolters and their armour never takes damage.

An Astartes would not need to fight several million orks. Beheading the horde by killing the Warboss would most likely result in the factions coming apart in civil war, allowing the Astartes to pick them off piecemeal and leave the Guard to clean up. - which they do not do.

Of course they would just eliminate any orks in non-strategic areas by orbital bombardment. I’m reminded of a moment in Last Chancers when a rebel army ventures outside their defenses to attack a Guard regiment and they get promptly annihilated from orbit by an Imperial Cruiser.

If I had to assume an Space Marine company vs an ork Waaaggh of several million orks would result in most of the orks being annihilated by orbital bombardment with the Astartes taking out ork leaders, strategic orks locations like factories or Ork roks and leaving the guard of PDF to clean up whatever’s left. - Can't remember if they orbitally bombard the orks in the book- rereading as we speak- but if they did, then why bother with the ground troops trying to hold off a seige?

The Astartes don’t have to personally kill every last ork on the planet. They just have to break their a ability to wage war, which they are certainly able to do.

Because the orks are portrayed as being about as effective as gretchin.

I must say, you replying in this format makes it quote difficult to respond. Are you familiar with the quote button?

Ascalam wrote:

Possible, but unlikely that it was feral orks with sticks at the seige of Zalathas, or the locals would have had no problem putting them down.

We can’t say that when we don’t know the tactical situation at all.

Ascalam wrote:
There are weak spots in any suit of armour. Terminator armor is no exception. If it was they'd be immune to shootas in game,

Game stats are quite irrelevant when determining the fluff power of a Marine, as the game stats are explicitly designed to be fair and make sure that all parties would have a chance to win. The actual fluff if not designed to be fair to all parties.

Let me put it like this. If you fire an AK-47 against a tank it will do nothing. IF you get a hundred AK-47’s to fire against a tank it will still do nothing. If you get a thousand AK-47’s to fire against a tank it will still do nothing.

Ascalam wrote:
Remember that Shootas are just as powerful as bolters, though firing solid slugs at high velocity instead of mass-reactive rounds.

Can you give me proof and quotes that shootas are just as powerful as bolters in the fluff? No game stats. The closest I can think of is Cain referring to shootas as bolters, and he is noted repeatedly in his stories by even himself to not be concerned with the details.

Pretty much every fluff source I’ve ever read has ork shootas being distinctly inferior to Astartes bolters. If ork shootas could really cut through power armor as easily as you claim then the Imperium would have been conquered a long time ago by the orks.

Ascalam wrote:
Bolters have been portrayed in the fluff as being able to cut through poiwer armour with relative ease.

You will provide sources and quotes for bolters cutting through power armor with ease?

Ascalam wrote:
Look at a suit of termie armour sometime. The design is poor. Sooner or later a slug will lodge in a joint, disabling it, or damage a weak spot.

The design is quite irrelevant when fluff is concerned. If we took all design to be literal then Astartes would be unable to raise their arms above their heads. As far as the fluff is concerned they are all but immune to small arms fire, since the studio fluff is quite clear on that matter I will assume that even a joint shot will do little good.

Ascalam wrote:
Also, Orks never have just shootas Hit him with a few KMB, improbably sized rokkits, power klaws (which just flat oout ignore your inpenetrable armour), Zzapp guns (whick cook you inside it..) etc..

Fluffwise, most orks really won’t have those weapons. Of course I will assume anything but the heaviest of anti-tank weaponry will do anything to an Astartes.

Ascalam wrote:
when have you ever read of an ork force comprising entirely of Boyz, with no support or guns beyond sluggas? Orks like to bring seige weapons to seiges, oddly enough

Brothers of the Snake features orks armed with mostly axes, spears and other primitive weapons with nary a vehicle or piece of artillery between them. Most of the orks in Helsreach are similarly armed. The same in Angels of Darkness and Rynn’s World.

Ascalam wrote:
The sergeant is commenting on the fact theat the SM were dumb enough to take a tiny ass force down with them, and that that tiny force had sustained some serious damage.

He is certainly not He is commenting more on Sicarius’s reckless tactics than anything else.

Ascalam wrote:
Compared to the several lords they kill off, the dozens of wraiths, whole units of warriors and immortals etc etc i'd call it imbalanced.

None of which is beyond the ability of a Space Marine battle company. In fact the downfall of at least one lord was due to sabotage and treachery.

Ascalam wrote:
can go through the book and get a loss/win ratio if you like, but i think you'll find the marines are doing rather well against units that are statistically the same or better than them, in fluff or out

A win loss ratio would be appreciated, however I would hesitate to call the Necrons equal to the Astartes. Equal in toughness certainly, but not in close quarter skill, aim, tactical ability or anything involving other than basic protocols. Really, only the Lords have sentience now.

Ascalam wrote:
Monolith with a meltabomb, when the novel was released before the new dex

The novel was released before the Codex but Kyme obviously had advance notes, for example the Cryptek shows up, along with references to a royarch and the Destroyer virus driving Lords into madness along with mentions of Necron lords and ladies.

So, fluffwise a Captain taking out a Monolith is certainly not an usual feat.

Ascalam wrote:
One small unit plus Sicarius taking out dozens of wraiths, losing three marines for dozens of them plus a named IC Lord. (possible, but unlikey)

Again, certainly not beyond walking tanks who are better and faster than the Necrons in pretty much all areas beside toughness.

Ascalam wrote:
- which they do not do.

So are you claiming the Dark Angels single handedly slaughter every ork on Kallidus?

Ascalam wrote:
- which also doesn't happen IIRC.

Perhaps you could give me a detailed summary of the book?

I am familair with the quote button. My computer however keeps logging me out, which forced me to answer it that way.

I'll reply to the rest when i've restarted the hunk o junk.

Ah, I've found my copy of the book and have started reading it. I've hardly had time to read it all so I'll post a much more detailed response later.

Appearantly they do launch an orbital bombardment on the orks.

‘This is Brother Sarpedon,’ the Chaplain said over the Dark
Angels’ ciphered comm channel. ‘The Unrelenting Fury is cleared
for a short pass only. Orks are still in control of the defence laser
site at Kadillus Harbour. If the bombardment does not break the
ork attack, we cannot expect further orbital support. Ready your
weapons and your souls and believe in the purity of our cause.’

It's just that the orks controlling a defense lasers made things complicated as noted earlier.

‘You wish to be involved in the assault? While the will might
remain as strong as ever, I fear your armour and body must first be
healed, as must mine. I will think on it. As yet, the landing site has
not been located. We will see what sort of enemy awaits us. It may
be that our foes are few enough in number to finish with orbital
bombardment. Before that, we must drive the orks out of the
defence-laser silo they have occupied in the docks. Though it is
unlikely the orks understand how to operate the weapon, I am not
willing to risk the Unrelenting Fury in low orbit while it is still in
enemy hands.’
‘Do you think it was the defence laser Ghazghkull wanted when
he took the city, brother-captain?’
‘It is a distinct possibility. Possession of the defence laser negates
the orbital supremacy handed to us when the orks landed their ship.
I am certain the ork ship is still on the surface: no launch has been
detected. When we retake the defence laser, the Unrelenting Fury
will add orbital firepower to the arsenal at my command.’

If the orks had not been in control of said defense laser then they would have been annhilated from orbit as I assume.

EDIT: As for the thosuands of collums the exact quote is this:

Suddenly in pin-sharp clarity he saw figures emerging from the
dust. Steadying himself again, he gently thumbed the focus rune a
little more. More and more shapes emerged from the haze, churning
up the dirt in their wake, a great crowd of figures on foot: stooped,
green-skinned, waving weapons in the air. As the seconds passed,
Tauno could see the columns advancing steadily in a seemingly
endless procession. There were thousands of them.

This speaks to me of him seeing thousands of orks in the columns, not thousands of columns. This is supported by a quick search through the book. Orks are referred to as the ''thousands'' and not ''hundreds of thousands'' or ''millions'' as if thousands of columns would be true.

Fair enough. It's been a while since i last read it, and i'm busily rereading it.

I'll sort the killcount for you later, from incidents mentioned in the book, if that's ok by you. It'll likely take an hour or two. I'll either post a new post or PM the results, as we're threadjacking a bit..

The ork leader of the waagh is Ghazzy, He's still alive at the end.


*shrug*

I'll sort out a new thread when i've had a chance to read the books and do some math.

Ork shootas used to be bolters, which is why Cain refers to them as such. That was back a ways. As to bolters vs power armour just look at any occasion in which chaos marines ger shot at They have astartes power armour too. If you take the movie as canon (i don't) a captain with a bolt pistol can oneshot them at a dead run...
There's a reason they are statted the same S as bolters. They are as powerful as bolters, if with less AP. I'll see if i can find you a quote that shows them to have a similar punch.

Wasn't Brotherhood of the Snake generally reckoned to be the worst fanfic tripe BL ever produced? I've certainly heard that assessment before.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
**edit** Quote refusing to work right- apologies for the disjointed post.

Ascalam wrote:
Ork shootas used to be bolters, which is why Cain refers to them as such. That was back a ways.

Is that Rogue Trader fluff? I'm not sure that applies here.

Ascalam wrote:As to bolters vs power armour just look at any occasion in which chaos marines ger shot at They have astartes power armour too.

You mean like in Blood Reaver when two squads shoot each other with bolters and in the end it comes down to close quarters because the bolters are too ineffective against power armor?

And of course traitors usually use odler marks of power armor that are not quite as good as modern power armor fluffwise.

Ascalam wrote: If you take the movie as canon (i don't) a captain with a bolt pistol can oneshot them at a dead run...

I would assume a Captain to be more knowledgeble about the weak points of Astartes armor and be able to exploit that better.

Ascalam wrote:There's a reason they are statted the same S as bolters. They are as powerful as bolters, if with less AP. I'll see if i can find you a quote that shows them to have a similar punch.

Game stats are irelevant They are made for game balance and not fluff accuracy. If the Astartes were anything like the tabletop them they would have been wiped out long ago. Some of the stuff, like 20 Crimson Fists holding off 600+orks (Even with the help of Eldar rangers) is flat out impossible on the tabletop.

Ascalam wrote:
Wasn't Brotherhood of the Snake generally reckoned to be the worst fanfic tripe BL ever produced? I've certainly heard that assessment before.

That is an opinion and peope are entitled to it. However Black Library is just as canon as anythng produced by the studio. Nothing in the book contridicts studio material (Which is more than I can say of some Black Library novels.) Even the Dark Eldar example matches up to the Dark Eldar Codex. 500 Astartes drop in and pretty much hold off half of Commoragh by themselves. True they take what is implied to be heavy losses, but they face off against most of the Dark Eldar elite and beat them back.

You realize you just contradicted yourself a bit?

Bolter fire by trained operators is ineffective against power armour, by people who know exactly where the weaker spots in the armour are, but yet a bolt pistol, shooting at a dead run, barely aimed, can penetrate with every shot, when the shooter is in fact a daemon posing as a Space marine captain, and even if he is capable of using the guy's skills (not clarified) he's killing them with chest shots where the armour is strongest...

Orks used to have bolters back in 1st and 2nd ed (pos 3rd..can't recall), identical in every way to SM bolters, fluff and gamewise. They got renamed Shootas at some point. They used to have Heavy Plasma Guns (Plasma Cannon) back then too..

Fluff also has chaos marines being taken down by lasguns, which is 'impossible'.

Are the game stats intended as a reflection of the fluff, or is the fluff written around the game stats? Opinions vary
If the fluff was actually consistent (or as much so as the rules at least) it might help. Fluff has marines being anything from well trained, big armoured humans to unkiillable demigods, with accounts of the same individual being pretty variable.

The stuff is nearly impossible, period. It is possible, with awesome rolling, on the tabletop, but exceedingly unlikely Game stats are VERY relevant, as they are the things that define the beasties they write the fluff around. If fluff is all that matters then every Lord of Change is more powerful than the Emperor, as they are described as being the most powerful sorcerors in the galaxy, with unparalleled psychic powers Game stats are there to tell us when the fluff is a PR campaign


You seem to be leaving out the several very large spaceships when you are mentioning your 500 astartes being 'by themselves' ...

Ascalam wrote:You realize you just contradicted yourself a bit?

Not at all.

Ascalam wrote:
Bolter fire by trained operators is ineffective against power armour, by people who know exactly where the weaker spots in the armour are, but yet a bolt pistol, shooting at a dead run, barely aimed, can penetrate with every shot, when the shooter is in fact a daemon posing as a Space marine captain, and even if he is capable of using the guy's skills (not clarified) he's killing them with chest shots where the armour is strongest...

If it's a daemon then of course I would chalk it up to whatever supernatural mojo he could have, as we clearly have consistant examples of Astartes power armor not being easily penetrated by bolter rounds.

Ascalam wrote:
Orks used to have bolters back in 1st and 2nd ed (pos 3rd..can't recall), identical in every way to SM bolters, fluff and gamewise. They got renamed Shootas at some point. They used to have Heavy Plasma Guns (Plasma Cannon) back then too..

And as of the current fluff they certainly don't have weapons equivelent to bolters.

Ascalam wrote:
Fluff also has chaos marines being taken down by lasguns, which is 'impossible'.

Can you give me quotes and examples? The closest I can recall is a Chaos Marine beign shot by a hotshot long-las to the head by Larkin (Not a normal lasgun by any stretch) and some Chaos Marines in Ghostmaker being shot by dozens of lasguns while being blasted by flamers, heavy weapons and grenades.

Ascalam wrote:
Are the game stats intended as a reflection of the fluff, or is the fluff written around the game stats? Opinions vary
If the fluff was actually consistent (or as much so as the rules at least) it might help. Fluff has marines being anything from well trained, big armoured humans to unkiillable demigods, with accounts of the same individual being pretty variable.

We have exceptions and examples, but by large Astartes are unkillable demigods even in the studio fluff.

Ascalam wrote:
The stuff is nearly impossible, period. It is possible, with awesome rolling, on the tabletop, but exceedingly unlikely Game stats are VERY relevant, as they are the things that define the beasties they write the fluff around.

Game stats are quite irelevant for the some fact they are made for balance. The fluff won't contain balance I assure you.

In fact the simple truth is that if the Astartes were anything like their tabletop counterparts then they would have gotten wipe dout a long time ago by attrition. Simple as that.

Ascalam wrote:If fluff is all that matters then every Lord of Change is more powerful than the Emperor, as they are described as being the most powerful sorcerors in the galaxy, with unparalleled psychic powers Game stats are there to tell us when the fluff is a PR campaign

Actually the Emperor is explictly described as the most powerful psyker in history and has defeated Horus who was beign empowered by all four Chaos Gods at the same time. So the Emperor>Chaos Gods.

The Lord of Change's description would most likely refer to the present day 40k, when the Emperor is obviously no longer active.

Ascalam wrote:
You seem to be leaving out the several very large spaceships when you are mentioning your 500 astartes being 'by themselves' ...

Several large spaceships which took little part in the ground battle other than to deliver their payload. It was mentioned clearly that their guns were silenced by Dark Eldar fighters and bombers.

Big E = Barely superior to chaos-god boosted Primarch. They can't manifest their full power on this side of the warp, and none of them would be dumb enough to invest every last atom of their power anyway.


The emperor is explicitly described as being the most powerful psyker in history (from the IOM's POV, like most of the fluff..).

The Lords of change are explicitly described as being the psykers of unparalleled ability, and the most powerfl sorcerors in the galaxy.

Ergo we have a paradox, as fluff says they are on par if both statements are true

Check the chaos daemons codex if you don't believe me. Pg 31.

Ascalam wrote:Big E = Barely superior to chaos-god boosted Primarch. They can't manifest their full power on this side of the warp, and none of them would be dumb enough to invest every last atom of their power anyway.

They were empowering Horus with their full might, hence using him as a conduit. Obviously they can't manifest their full power on this side of the warp. They put their power in Horus and then fled when it became obvious that the Emperor was winning. They are even described as feeding more and more power to Horus in Collected Visions. We are given no reason to doubt Horus had the full support of the Dark Gods.

And the Emperor is hardly barely superior. He was basically holding back against Horus until The nameless Custodes came in and sacrificed his life. Then he stomped him.

Ascalam wrote:
The emperor is explicitly described as being the most powerful psyker in history.

The Lords of change are explicitly described as being the psykers of unparalleled ability, and the most powerfl sorcerors in the galaxy.

Ergo we have a paradox, as fluff says they are on par if both statements are true

Check the chaos daemons codex if you don't believe me. Pg 31.

That is not a paradox at all if the Emperor is no longer at his prime (Being stuck on the Golden Throne and all) Thus the statement of Lords of Change being psykers of urparalleled ability would be quite true. No paradox at all.

There are so many different variants of the Emperor/Horus battle, so it's hard to be sure. In one the Emperor gets his arm ripped off and his eye put out 'holding back' and it takes every last molecule of his willpower/pykeryness to kill horus, released as a desperate all-or-nothing final strike. I take it the version you are referring to is from the recent Horus Heresy series? I've not read all of them yet..

Ascalam wrote:
The emperor is explicitly described as being the most powerful psyker in history.

The Lords of change are explicitly described as being the psykers of unparalleled ability, and the most powerfl sorcerors in the galaxy.

Ergo we have a paradox, as fluff says they are on par if both statements are true

Check the chaos daemons codex if you don't believe me. Pg 31.

That is not a paradox at all if the Emperor is no longer at his prime (Being stuck on the Golden Throne and all) Thus the statemtn of Lords of Change being psykers of urparalleled ability would be quite true. No paradox at all.

Ascalam wrote:There are so many different variants of the Emperor/Horus battle, so it's hard to be sure. In one the Emperor gets his arm ripped off and his eye put out 'holding back' and it takes every last molecule of his willpower/pykeryness to kill horus, released as a desperate all-or-nothing final strike. I take it the version you are referring to is from the recent Horus Heresy series? I've not read all of them yet..

Not at all. The one published in Collected Visions is largely a reprint of the one you posted. Even in the link you posted the Emperor is still stated to be holding back against Horus.

Ascalam wrote:
So you're saying a Lord of Change, the basic Tzeentch Hq choice daemon, is indeed more powerful psychically than the Emperor, post installation into the throne? I know a lot of Sm players who would consider that heresy, but it would solve the paradox

Certainly. The Emperor as of now is directing the Astromonican. He obviously can't fight. If he was taken off the Astromonican and was not fighting the Chaos Gods I'm pretty sure he could annhilate a Lord of Change.

And of course using the HQ version of the Lord of Change is a very bad example. Fluffwise greater daemons vary enourmously in power level, both in and outside the warp. If one wants to go back into the days of the old fluff I believe you had stories of star-system sized daemons in the warp in Realms of Chaos.

Of course a Lord of Change does not have the feats needed to match the Emperor. But we do have feats, repreated ones, of Astartes taking entire planets and resisting bolter rounds.

Regardless of what he's doing with his pyschic abilities he's still the same level of power as a psyker.

Lords of change are unparalleled in power. If the emperor is inferior it bodes ill for the IOM. If he could easily fwakoom a LOC he's more powerful, which brings up the paradox again.

I used the HQ version, because that's where the statement of psychic power is from in the fluff

Has the emperor swandived into the well that creates all matter and time? A LOC has Who said we needed fluff feats, when we have a categorical statement that they are the most powerful psykers in the galaxy in the fluff. It is a defiinite statement of superior power


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I read it as being more that he's 'held back' than holding back, as he can't figure it out at first..

Ascalam wrote:Regardless of what he's doing with his pyschic abilities he's still the same level of power as a psyker.

Lords of change are unparalleled in power. If the emperor is inferior it bodes ill for the IOM. If he could easily fwakoom a LOC he's more powerful, which brings up the paradox again.

Perhaps let me put it like this.

We have two opposing statements. Therefor in order to break the deadlock, we look at feats. The Emperor had fought the Chaos Gods in Horus. The Lord of Change has done nothing comparable to that at all. Therefore the Emperor is logically stronger.

As for the statement about the Lord of Change, that can be true, if one recognizes that the Codex is generally applied in comparison to other races. The Lord of Change would be an unparalleled psyker compared to Librariand, Farseers, etc, etc.

Ascalam wrote:
Has the emperor swandived into the well that creates all matter and time? A LOC has

That is not a feat of psychic power. Theoretically anybody could do that.

Has a Lord of Change fought and beaten all Four Chaos Gods? Has the Lord of Change stopped time across a planet?

Ascalam wrote:Who said we needed fluff feats, when we have a categorical statement that they are the most powerful psykers in the galaxy in the fluff. It is a defiinite statement of superior power

Not it is not. We have a generalized statement that conflicts with another. Therefore we must look to actual feats to determine which is stronger. The context of the Lord of Change statement in the Code is obviously to compare to other mortal races, and not the Emperor.

After all, we don’t see the fluff statements in the Marine Codex being compared to the Primarchs.

I assume this is some sort of attempt at undermining my earlier fluff assertion of Astartes? In that case we have no conflict whatsoever as each fluff statement is well supported by examples.

Ascalam wrote:I read it as being more that he's 'held back' than holding back, as he can't figure it out at first..

The Emperor is not being held back by anyone other than himself. He is deliberately holding back his power. The passage makes that clear.

Whatever dude,

I'll agree to disagree (as i do with most of the above post), as I'm ruinning low on blood sugar, and that makes me a bit less prone to civility than i'd like to be in these discussions.

Ascalam wrote:Whatever dude,

I'll agree to disagree (as i do with most of the above post), as I'm ruinning low on blood sugar, and that makes me a bit less prone to civility than i'd like to be in these discussions.

Actually on further review we need to take this into context. I just got my hands on the Codex. This is the quote.

Magic. Lords of Change are the most powerful sorcerers
in the galaxy, gifted with unparalleled psychic abilities
and a near-infinite skill and expertise in the arcane
sciences.

This appearantly refers to the Lords of Change's abilties in sorcery, Sorcery is not the same as psychic powers (As the Emperor demonstrated at Nikea). Now whiel the wording refers to them as being the most powerful sorcerers, that is true, the Emperor is not a sorcerer, however the exact term for the psychic term is abilties, which does not exactly mean power. I would reasonable assume that there are certain psychic abilities that are the providence of the Chaos Gods that not even the Emperor would touch. However the term is abilites, not strictly power.

Thus this quote can be completely true, with the Emperor being more powerful, but not having the same abilties per say.

Fair enough then.

I'm in need of food, or i get ornery.

Sorcey does seem to be the catchall phrase in the IOM for non-sanctioned psyker abilities, though


As to feats, since you asked, there are some mentioned in the same section on Lords of change, further down, like pulling the soul out of the strongest warriors with a word, or turning a mortal into a spawn with a glance

They also, apparently, can only be killed when Tzeentch feels like sacrificing a pawn to improve his plans, due to prescience. If the Big E had the ability to see the future he must have been either selectively blind, or playing a rather grim game of russian roulette

Fateweaver creates a gate from warp to reality with a gesture in one of the stories IIRC also

I'm off to get food