Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ascalam wrote:
Sorcey does seem to be the catchall phrase in the IOM for non-sanctioned psyker abilities, though

Sorcery is defined in Dark Heresy as power derived from treating with the daemons of the warp.

Ascalam wrote:
As to feats, since you asked, there are some mentioned in the same section on Lords of change, further down, like pulling the soul out of the strongest warriors with a word, or turning a mortal into a spawn with a glance

The former is suprassed with the Emperor's feat of utterly destroying Horus's soul, not just pulling it out but utterly annhilating his very being. The latter I would assume the Emperor would not do, but theoretically could if he dedicated himself to the Dark Gods.

Ascalam wrote:
They also, apparently, can only be killed when Tzeentch feels like sacrificing a pawn to improve his plans, due to prescience. If the Big E had the ability to see the future he must have been either selectively blind, or playing a rather grim game of russian roulette

Daemons can't really be killed by mortal weapons, only banished. Although if the Emperor can utterly annhilate someone's soul than eradicating a daemon's warp prescense should be simple by comparison.

Ascalam wrote:
Fateweaver creates a gate from warp to reality with a gesture in one of the stories IIRC also

That is impressive, but does not put him on the Emperor's level.

Gree wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
When you're getting into force multipliers for commander ability, that can apply to any force. Experienced IG commanders can turn a regiment of 10,000 to be a force much stronger, an Autarch can take a handful of aspect warriors and turn it into a force that can take down many times their number.

Can you go provide me a statement in the Guard or Eldar codices that say that?

Well Lord Solar Macharius, a guard commander, was said to match or even SURPASS the primarchs where it came to strategy. Also, Creed is a better tactician than any astartes I've ever seen.

Astartes simply aren't as good as you seem to think. A space marine is worth 10 guardsmen. Rogal Dorn, a primarch, said that. Their armour is strong, but is weak in many areas. Also weight of fire can destroy it. They are to stormtroopers what stormtroopers are to guardsmen.

Last time I checked a Tac Squad would be annihilated by a full platoon of 100 Guardmen, heavy weapons and all. Especially if they're vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Gree, LoC destroy souls too, they pull it out of your body and feast on it. Pretty much what all daemons do. Also, GK termies can do the same thing the Empy did to horus.

Sorry, I tried to reply earlier, but the site is proving to be quite difficult as it keeps timing out my messages.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well Lord Solar Macharius, a guard commander, was said to match or even SURPASS the primarchs where it came to strategy.

Macharius was an exception not the rule.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Creed is a better tactician than any astartes I've ever seen.

Proof? And I mean actual proof. Noth the 4chan meme

im2randomghgh wrote:
Astartes simply aren't as good as you seem to think. A space marine is worth 10 guardsmen. Rogal Dorn, a primarch, said that.

No he did not. He said they are worth ten other troops. We don’t know what those troops are. We do fortunately have many, many examples showing that they are beyond ten Guardsmen both in the studio and in the Black Library.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Their armour is strong, but is weak in many areas. Also weight of fire can destroy it. They are to stormtroopers what stormtroopers are to guardsmen.

No they are not. Astartes are well beyond that of a human. They are certainly far beyond stormtroopers.

For some things, weight of fire won't do anything. Line up a hudnred AK-47's to fire at a tank and it won't anything.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Last time I checked a Tac Squad would be annihilated by a full platoon of 100 Guardmen, heavy weapons and all. Especially if they're vets.

A Tac squad would breeze through a hundred Guardsmen with ease. Read Salvation’s Reach and Soul Hunter. Three Astartes slaughter over two hundred xenos mercenaries and traitor Guard and then slaughter hundreds more.

im2randomghgh wrote:
@ Gree, LoC destroy souls too, they pull it out of your body and feast on it. Pretty much what all daemons do. Also, GK termies can do the same thing the Empy did to horus.

You will give me proof that the Grey Knights can do the same thing as the Emperor? And no, A Lord of Change cannot annihilate a soul’s complete presence from reality with pure force. Eating it is not the same.

SM the videogame. Three Space Marines kill literally thousands of Orks and plenty of daemons without taking any real damage. So their stat line is probably WS 10, always hit everything, BS 10, accurate as all hell, S 5, blam orks with a single hit, T 7, gets punched in the face by a warboss and takes it, W 5, gets repeatedly shot and stabbed without armor but is fine, I 10, hits before everything, A ∞, hit so many times, LD 13, never run away, AV 5, gretchin can pry away your armour

slim116 wrote:

With the power armour being a 2+ save some of you may wonder what save the terminator armour gets.

IMHO they would be armour save 1+, as in nothing can kill them except AP1 weapons and powerweapons.

Back in't day, Terminators had a 3+ save.... which was taken on two dice.

Locate the "Movie Marine" profile in an old WD

Gree wrote:Sorry, I tried to reply earlier, but the site is proving to be quite difficult as it keeps timing out my messages.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well Lord Solar Macharius, a guard commander, was said to match or even SURPASS the primarchs where it came to strategy.

Macharius was an exception not the rule.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Creed is a better tactician than any astartes I've ever seen.

Proof? And I mean actual proof. Noth the 4chan meme

im2randomghgh wrote:
Astartes simply aren't as good as you seem to think. A space marine is worth 10 guardsmen. Rogal Dorn, a primarch, said that.

No he did not. He said they are worth ten other troops. We don’t know what those troops are. We do fortunately have many, many examples showing that they are beyond ten Guardsmen both in the studio and in the Black Library.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Their armour is strong, but is weak in many areas. Also weight of fire can destroy it. They are to stormtroopers what stormtroopers are to guardsmen.

No they are not. Astartes are well beyond that of a human. They are certainly far beyond stormtroopers.

For some things, weight of fire won't do anything. Line up a hudnred AK-47's to fire at a tank and it won't anything.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Last time I checked a Tac Squad would be annihilated by a full platoon of 100 Guardmen, heavy weapons and all. Especially if they're vets.

A Tac squad would breeze through a hundred Guardsmen with ease. Read Salvation’s Reach and Soul Hunter. Three Astartes slaughter over two hundred xenos mercenaries and traitor Guard and then slaughter hundreds more.

im2randomghgh wrote:
@ Gree, LoC destroy souls too, they pull it out of your body and feast on it. Pretty much what all daemons do. Also, GK termies can do the same thing the Empy did to horus.

You will give me proof that the Grey Knights can do the same thing as the Emperor? And no, A Lord of Change cannot annihilate a soul’s complete presence from reality with pure force. Eating it is not the same.

1. None of the BL books are the rule, either. The point of the stories are that these are some of the most successful fighters in the Imperium of man. There are a few dozen astartes from whose PoV these books are written, out of more than a million loyal SM.

2.

lexicanum wrote:...and his tactical genius is of a kind not seen in the Imperium for generations.

3. The Imperium from the year 30,000 had two types of soldiers: Space Marines, and Imperial Army. Seriously, don't be pulling at straws, especially when it's invalid. Also, there are plenty of examples of SM getting clusterfucked. Like in GG when Gaunt and his mission team take out a squad of Chaos Space Marines (CSM>SM) with zero casualties, and we see a crossbow penetrating PA.

4. They are not tanks, they are humans. As such they need a breathing grill (weak spot), a place to see out of (weak spot) joints (weak spot) have a generator on their back (weak spot) a neck joint (weak spot) etc. Also, Lasguns can do just about anything when you get enough of them together. Against any infantry, weight of fire always solves the problem.

5. See: #3. 100 Lasguns on full auto (300 RPM/60 seconds=5 rounds per second x 100=500 RPS) the minute or so during which the battle takes place=30000 las rounds, astartes are screwed. I'd say an astartes is worth more like 6-12 IG depending on the Guardsmen. Kasrkin would mess their gak up in a 3 men per SM battle.

6. The Holocaust is the same power the Emperor used on Horus. It is usable by GK termies. It takes a squad of them, but it is completely doable. Also, aside from the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador, LoC are the most powerful sorcerers in 40k. ALSO, when daemons feed on souls, there is nothing left of the original soul. It is simply nourishment for them, much as is a star for a C'tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:SM the videogame. Three Space Marines kill literally thousands of Orks and plenty of daemons without taking any real damage. So their stat line is probably WS 10, always hit everything, BS 10, accurate as all hell, S 5, blam orks with a single hit, T 7, gets punched in the face by a warboss and takes it, W 5, gets repeatedly shot and stabbed without armor but is fine, I 10, hits before everything, A ∞, hit so many times, LD 13, never run away, AV 5, gretchin can pry away your armour

Except it was quite beautifully explained by Captain Titus receiving outside help form chaos. Just like in FW.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. None of the BL books are the rule, either. The point of the stories are that these are some of the most successful fighters in the Imperium of man.

They are indeed the rule. They are mostly consistent and match up to the Studio fluff of them taking entire worlds.

im2randomghgh wrote:
There are a few dozen astartes from whose PoV these books are written, out of more than a million loyal SM.

And then these Space Marines helpfully describe entire company and chapter sized forces taking on forces that outnumber them many times and winning. None of that is remarked as unusual at all for them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2.

lexicanum wrote:...and his tactical genius is of a kind not seen in the Imperium for generations.

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

And of course that quote does not really counter my point since we have Astartes who are centuries old. It is a wonderfully vague statement that does not say anythign about his superiority to Astartes commander at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. The Imperium from the year 30,000 had two types of soldiers: Space Marines, and Imperial Army.

You are incorrect, the Imperium also faced many non-human enemies as well. That is also ignoring the fact that Mechanicus forces and Sisters of Silence existed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, there are plenty of examples of SM getting clusterfucked. Like in GG when Gaunt and his mission team take out a squad of Chaos Space Marines (CSM>SM) with zero casualties, and we see a crossbow penetrating PA.

You are also forgetting to mention that Gaunt and his men pretty much stated that they get extremely lucky and what occurred was not normal at all.

Meanwhile in Salvation’s Reach, a mere three Astartes are considered by the Crusade command to support an entire Guard regiment. They then proceed to slaughter hundreds of traitor guard by themselves.

Also said crossbow was essentially a mini-railgun.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. They are not tanks, they are humans.

No they are not. They are genetically enhanced post humans with a reinforced skeleton, multiple redudant organs, strength and speed far beyond normal humans, and the ability to shrug off wounds that would kill a normal human.

They were once humans, then the Emperor made them better.

The armor they wear is capable of essentially tank grade anyway.

Other more minor injuries — severed hands, gouged eyes, punctured lungs — appeared more frequently.” / Salamander, p.340 - **

The kind of stufff that would cripple a normal human is minor to an Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
As such they need a breathing grill (weak spot), a place to see out of (weak spot) joints (weak spot) have a generator on their back (weak spot) a neck joint (weak spot) etc.

And a lasgun will do pretty much nothing against those spots anyway.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Lasguns can do just about anything when you get enough of them together. Against any infantry, weight of fire always solves the problem.

Except this infantry is walking around in tank grenade armor that lasguns are pretty much useless against.

Tongues of fire blasted from the heavy bolters, reaching out towards the charging Ultramarines. Uriel saw the shells impact, bursting amongst the charging Space Marines, but not a single man fell, the blessed suits of powered armour withstanding the traitors’ fire. Idaeus triggered his jump pack and the rest of his squad followed suit, streaking forward with giant powered leaps.

Las-blasts filled the air, but the Ultramarines were too quick. Idaeus smashed down through the timber roof of the gun nest, a fearsome war cry bursting from his lips. He swung his power sword, decapitating a rebel trooper, and backhanded his pistol into another’s chest, smashing his ribcage to splinters.” - Ultramarines Omnibus, p.5 & 6 - Chains of Command

That's them surviving heavy bolter rounds.

“‘We’re exposed out here,’ Bulle muttered. ‘Let’s get back into the forest.’Tarvitz was amused. Bulle made it sound as if the stalk thickets were safe ground.Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching theearth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, likeupturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive,detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.”

“The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lightning had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles. The shield-storm seemed to be pressing down on them, like a lid across the sky, pressurising the air, and squeezing them in an atmospheric vice.” / Horus Rising, p.233 - **

Them ignoring lightning witht he force of penetrator missles.

They laughed as they worked, a drywicked laughter that was frightening in its intensity. From behind the circular saws of an industrial rockcutter, a hooded man lobbed a rock at Sica. He heard a whistling sound and he turned the slab of his shoulder pad towards the missile. There was a flash of light. Even with his eyes closed, Sica’s vision strobed red and bright yellow. It had been a grenade. The explosion pushed Sica slightly and made him grunt with annoyance at his own carelessness. He shot the man off the industrial saw, quickly, as if ashamed.”/ Blood Gorgons, p.63 - **

A grenade is basically useless.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. See: #3. 100 Lasguns on full auto (300 RPM/60 seconds=5 rounds per second x 100=500 RPS) the minute or so during which the battle takes place=30000 las rounds, astartes are screwed.

It’s unlikely that you could realistically get a 100 lasguns to focus on one fast-moving target unless the Astartes for some reason decided to stay still.

Not that it will do much mind you against power armor.

Also give me proof that each lasgun has 300 rounds per minute or that the can put out five hundred rounds per second in the fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:
I'd say an astartes is worth more like 6-12 IG depending on the Guardsmen. Kasrkin would mess their gak up in a 3 men per SM battle.

Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

Read Salvation’s Reach or Soul Hunter to see how well normal humans do against Astartes.

They get slaughtered.

Shrieking and fleeing from the city breach, the vast forces of the dark eldar retreated east and met the lone warriors of Damocles squad. The eldar were frenzied and keening, their senses of self-preservation entirely subsumed by their overwhelming need to escape. They gave no quarter, no sign of surrender or submission. They came as a black armoured torrent of thick, spiked evil that rushed out of the city like rats from a fire, or water through a shattered dam.
Overwhelmed, Priad killed and killed again and went over in the tide of barbed fiends until Petrok hauled him up by the collar and set him back on his feet.
Side by side, Petrok and Priad, with blade and claw, levelled the eldar into a pile twenty deep.
Blood was clogging the corridors now: rich, ruddy, stinking. Behind the eldar, the warriors of Damocles squad closed the trap. Andromak was beside his commanders, lancing his plasma beams into the choked confines, slaughtering dozens of the foe as they charged and panicked. Now Xander, his bolter coughing. Now Calignes and Pindor, smashing with their blades. Illyus, his face half gone, his weapon punching into the dark. Scyllon, Memnes, Kules. A slaughterhouse. A killing field. Ten Iron Snakes damming the tide of the dark eldar. And fallen Natus outside, singing the lay, shooting down each and every straggler who got past the deadly blockade.
Priad was washed with blood, and his bolter was dry-firing as Petrok steadied him.
'It is done, Priad. We have slain a thousand over and again.'
Priad pulled off his helmet and cast it to the ground. It floated away a few yards on a stream of enemy blood that gurgled down the hallway. The air was too close, too full of smoke and blood vapour. They had expended virtually all of their ammunition and most of their physical strength, but they had killed infamous numbers. But for the evidence of the bodies around them, the scale of their victory was unimaginable.

Two thousand Dark Eldar slain, admittedly they were packed and fleeign in a confined space, but still an impressive feat.

Chilles and Xander catch a dozen of the enemy as they panic. They impose a crossfire that pulverises all. More emerge, firing back with lasguns and autocannon. A searing shot marks Xander's shoulder guard with a denting scorch. Memnes moves in around them, setting up a third part to the crossfire. Like the three suns with their inescapable shadows, the three tracing lines of their bolter fire pummel into and explode corrupted bags of flesh. Memnes chuckles as he does the Emperor's work.
Calignes moves from bunker to bunker, slaughtering. Through one doorway, he turns to face the stained features of a screaming heathen who opens up on him with an autocannon. Thumped backwards three paces by the succession of impacts to his carapace, Calignes grunts. His boltgun has been blown from his fist and his smallest finger has been vaporised. The autocannon cycles suddenly on empty, and as the cultist gropes for a reload, Calignes rushes him, exploding his head with a clap of his augmented fists.
The Iron Snakes move deeper into the facility. Between two low concrete blockhouses, Maced is rushed by twenty cultists who stream over him like ants, bludgeoning him with girder strips and wrenches. He laughs as he kills them, crushing necks, splintering limbs, punching his fists through bodies. His battledress now dressed with blood, he churns through the gore into the control room and tears the cultist he finds at the primary console into two twitching pieces.

Lasguns and autocannons do nothing.

In thirteen minutes, they have killed three hundred and eleven of the foe, including the Dark Tusks. For the loss of three. It has been a costly victory.

Ten Astartes kill over three hudnerds well-equipped cultists and 3-4 Chaos Marines. They lose three Astartes. (All to the Chaos MarineS) It is considered costly.

Imperial Guardsmen - a massed force of three hundred thousand, mainly Leoparda stormtroops and Donorian light armour -had been deployed to Eidon in the first months to effect a liberation. They had failed, ground to a standstill.

That is the Guard force sent to besiege a city. they fail. Six Squads of Astartes go in and suceed were they fail.

Memnes, Calignes and Illyus were dead. So were four hundred and seventy cultists.
A VICTORY, OF sorts. It didn't feel that way to Priad. He ignored Inquisitor Mabuse's attentions as he led his battered squad into its departure shuttle.

Over four hundred cultists dead for three Astartes. It is to be noted that two of the Astartes were already badly wounded by the time they fought the Cultists. This is considered to be costly by Astartes standards.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. The Holocaust is the same power the Emperor used on Horus.

No it is not, unless Grey Knights can shoot concentrated supernovas.

Provide proof and quotes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, aside from the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador, LoC are the most powerful sorcerers in 40k. ALSO, when daemons feed on souls, there is nothing left of the original soul. It is simply nourishment for them, much as is a star for a C'tan.

Proof and quotes? Also that’s not the same as doing it by force.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it was quite beautifully explained by Captain Titus receiving outside help form chaos. Just like in FW.

No it is not. The only thing noted at all in the game as being unusual is his resistiance to the warp.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. None of the BL books are the rule, either. The point of the stories are that these are some of the most successful fighters in the Imperium of man.

They are indeed the rule. They are mostly consistent and match up to the Studio fluff of them taking entire worlds.

im2randomghgh wrote:
There are a few dozen astartes from whose PoV these books are written, out of more than a million loyal SM.

And then these Space Marines helpfully describe entire company and chapter sized forces taking on forces that outnumber them many times and winning. None of that is remarked as unusual at all for them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2.

lexicanum wrote:...and his tactical genius is of a kind not seen in the Imperium for generations.

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

And of course that quote does not really counter my point since we have Astartes who are centuries old. It is a wonderfully vague statement that does not say anythign about his superiority to Astartes commander at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. The Imperium from the year 30,000 had two types of soldiers: Space Marines, and Imperial Army.

You are incorrect, the Imperium also faced many non-human enemies as well. That is also ignoring the fact that Mechanicus forces and Sisters of Silence existed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, there are plenty of examples of SM getting clusterfucked. Like in GG when Gaunt and his mission team take out a squad of Chaos Space Marines (CSM>SM) with zero casualties, and we see a crossbow penetrating PA.

You are also forgetting to mention that Gaunt and his men pretty much stated that they get extremely lucky and what occurred was not normal at all.

Meanwhile in Salvation’s Reach, a mere three Astartes are considered by the Crusade command to support an entire Guard regiment. They then proceed to slaughter hundreds of traitor guard by themselves.

Also said crossbow was essentially a mini-railgun.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. They are not tanks, they are humans.

No they are not. They are genetically enhanced post humans with a reinforced skeleton, multiple redudant organs, strength and speed far beyond normal humans, and the ability to shrug off wounds that would kill a normal human.

They were once humans, then the Emperor made them better.

The armor they wear is capable of essentially tank grade anyway.

Other more minor injuries — severed hands, gouged eyes, punctured lungs — appeared more frequently.” / Salamander, p.340 - **

The kind of stufff that would cripple a normal human is minor to an Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
As such they need a breathing grill (weak spot), a place to see out of (weak spot) joints (weak spot) have a generator on their back (weak spot) a neck joint (weak spot) etc.

And a lasgun will do pretty much nothing against those spots anyway.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Lasguns can do just about anything when you get enough of them together. Against any infantry, weight of fire always solves the problem.

Except this infantry is walking around in tank grenade armor that lasguns are pretty much useless against.

Tongues of fire blasted from the heavy bolters, reaching out towards the charging Ultramarines. Uriel saw the shells impact, bursting amongst the charging Space Marines, but not a single man fell, the blessed suits of powered armour withstanding the traitors’ fire. Idaeus triggered his jump pack and the rest of his squad followed suit, streaking forward with giant powered leaps.

Las-blasts filled the air, but the Ultramarines were too quick. Idaeus smashed down through the timber roof of the gun nest, a fearsome war cry bursting from his lips. He swung his power sword, decapitating a rebel trooper, and backhanded his pistol into another’s chest, smashing his ribcage to splinters.” - Ultramarines Omnibus, p.5 & 6 - Chains of Command

That's them surviving heavy bolter rounds.

“‘We’re exposed out here,’ Bulle muttered. ‘Let’s get back into the forest.’Tarvitz was amused. Bulle made it sound as if the stalk thickets were safe ground.Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching theearth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, likeupturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive,detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.”

“The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lightning had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles. The shield-storm seemed to be pressing down on them, like a lid across the sky, pressurising the air, and squeezing them in an atmospheric vice.” / Horus Rising, p.233 - **

Them ignoring lightning witht he force of penetrator missles.

They laughed as they worked, a drywicked laughter that was frightening in its intensity. From behind the circular saws of an industrial rockcutter, a hooded man lobbed a rock at Sica. He heard a whistling sound and he turned the slab of his shoulder pad towards the missile. There was a flash of light. Even with his eyes closed, Sica’s vision strobed red and bright yellow. It had been a grenade. The explosion pushed Sica slightly and made him grunt with annoyance at his own carelessness. He shot the man off the industrial saw, quickly, as if ashamed.”/ Blood Gorgons, p.63 - **

A grenade is basically useless.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. See: #3. 100 Lasguns on full auto (300 RPM/60 seconds=5 rounds per second x 100=500 RPS) the minute or so during which the battle takes place=30000 las rounds, astartes are screwed.

It’s unlikely that you could realistically get a 100 lasguns to focus on one fast-moving target unless the Astartes for some reason decided to stay still.

Not that it will do much mind you against power armor.

Also give me proof that each lasgun has 300 rounds per minute or that the can put out five hundred rounds per second in the fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:
I'd say an astartes is worth more like 6-12 IG depending on the Guardsmen. Kasrkin would mess their gak up in a 3 men per SM battle.

Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

Read Salvation’s Reach or Soul Hunter to see how well normal humans do against Astartes.

They get slaughtered.

Shrieking and fleeing from the city breach, the vast forces of the dark eldar retreated east and met the lone warriors of Damocles squad. The eldar were frenzied and keening, their senses of self-preservation entirely subsumed by their overwhelming need to escape. They gave no quarter, no sign of surrender or submission. They came as a black armoured torrent of thick, spiked evil that rushed out of the city like rats from a fire, or water through a shattered dam.
Overwhelmed, Priad killed and killed again and went over in the tide of barbed fiends until Petrok hauled him up by the collar and set him back on his feet.
Side by side, Petrok and Priad, with blade and claw, levelled the eldar into a pile twenty deep.
Blood was clogging the corridors now: rich, ruddy, stinking. Behind the eldar, the warriors of Damocles squad closed the trap. Andromak was beside his commanders, lancing his plasma beams into the choked confines, slaughtering dozens of the foe as they charged and panicked. Now Xander, his bolter coughing. Now Calignes and Pindor, smashing with their blades. Illyus, his face half gone, his weapon punching into the dark. Scyllon, Memnes, Kules. A slaughterhouse. A killing field. Ten Iron Snakes damming the tide of the dark eldar. And fallen Natus outside, singing the lay, shooting down each and every straggler who got past the deadly blockade.
Priad was washed with blood, and his bolter was dry-firing as Petrok steadied him.
'It is done, Priad. We have slain a thousand over and again.'
Priad pulled off his helmet and cast it to the ground. It floated away a few yards on a stream of enemy blood that gurgled down the hallway. The air was too close, too full of smoke and blood vapour. They had expended virtually all of their ammunition and most of their physical strength, but they had killed infamous numbers. But for the evidence of the bodies around them, the scale of their victory was unimaginable.

Two thousand Dark Eldar slain, admittedly they were packed and fleeign in a confined space, but still an impressive feat.

Chilles and Xander catch a dozen of the enemy as they panic. They impose a crossfire that pulverises all. More emerge, firing back with lasguns and autocannon. A searing shot marks Xander's shoulder guard with a denting scorch. Memnes moves in around them, setting up a third part to the crossfire. Like the three suns with their inescapable shadows, the three tracing lines of their bolter fire pummel into and explode corrupted bags of flesh. Memnes chuckles as he does the Emperor's work.
Calignes moves from bunker to bunker, slaughtering. Through one doorway, he turns to face the stained features of a screaming heathen who opens up on him with an autocannon. Thumped backwards three paces by the succession of impacts to his carapace, Calignes grunts. His boltgun has been blown from his fist and his smallest finger has been vaporised. The autocannon cycles suddenly on empty, and as the cultist gropes for a reload, Calignes rushes him, exploding his head with a clap of his augmented fists.
The Iron Snakes move deeper into the facility. Between two low concrete blockhouses, Maced is rushed by twenty cultists who stream over him like ants, bludgeoning him with girder strips and wrenches. He laughs as he kills them, crushing necks, splintering limbs, punching his fists through bodies. His battledress now dressed with blood, he churns through the gore into the control room and tears the cultist he finds at the primary console into two twitching pieces.

Lasguns and autocannons do nothing.

In thirteen minutes, they have killed three hundred and eleven of the foe, including the Dark Tusks. For the loss of three. It has been a costly victory.

Ten Astartes kill over three hudnerds well-equipped cultists and 3-4 Chaos Marines. They lose three Astartes. (All to the Chaos MarineS) It is considered costly.

Imperial Guardsmen - a massed force of three hundred thousand, mainly Leoparda stormtroops and Donorian light armour -had been deployed to Eidon in the first months to effect a liberation. They had failed, ground to a standstill.

That is the Guard force sent to besiege a city. they fail. Six Squads of Astartes go in and suceed were they fail.

Memnes, Calignes and Illyus were dead. So were four hundred and seventy cultists.
A VICTORY, OF sorts. It didn't feel that way to Priad. He ignored Inquisitor Mabuse's attentions as he led his battered squad into its departure shuttle.

Over four hundred cultists dead for three Astartes. It is to be noted that two of the Astartes were already badly wounded by the time they fought the Cultists. This is considered to be costly by Astartes standards.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. The Holocaust is the same power the Emperor used on Horus.

No it is not, unless Grey Knights can shoot concentrated supernovas.

Provide proof and quotes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, aside from the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador, LoC are the most powerful sorcerers in 40k. ALSO, when daemons feed on souls, there is nothing left of the original soul. It is simply nourishment for them, much as is a star for a C'tan.

Proof and quotes? Also that’s not the same as doing it by force.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it was quite beautifully explained by Captain Titus receiving outside help form chaos. Just like in FW.

No it is not. The only thing noted at all in the game as being unusual is his resistiance to the warp.

Could you not make so many quote windows? you're wasting my time.

1. Well I can see we've taken facts out of this one. This is devolving into "YES! NO! YES!" so I'm gonna drop it. If you want me to take this point up again PM me.

2. "They marched out into the field, resplendent in their Polished armour. Oops, deathstriker missile!" How many books would that sell?

3. Lexicanum is indeed a valid source, as everything on that site has it's sources cited, to the page.
And this does indeed preclude the possibility of any living astartes being a superior tactician, as it means that it has been generations since the IoM has had a tactician equal to him. That is exactly what it means. If you debate this, I will send you a link to an ESL night school.

4. Mechanicus force are for one thing autonymous, and for another thing consisted of knight Legion Cybernetica and Titans to an extant not seen in "present 40k", unless you're saying each tac marine is worth 10 titans? And Sisters of silence aren't troops. Plus, that is a massive stretch.

5. "lucky" would be winning against the CSM (CSM>SM). When they get a 5:0 K/D ratio you know they are superior. And IDGAF about salvation's reach. AND don't even get me started. A weapon using magnetic propulsion is NOT necessarily a railgun. I recently had a 15-20 page debate about this on dakka.

6. They are human. Augmented, but still human. In order to be their own species, they need the capacity to reproduce. They lack it, and so are human. Their armour is not tank grade. Tank grade armour is tank grade.

7. I'm not debating that. The point stands, they can't take as much punishment as 10 humans.

8. Actually, lasguns Penetrate these weak areas easily. The joints are toughened rubber, of course an amazingly powerful laser beam is going to penetrate. Otherwise power armour would be a 1+ inv save. And according to lexicanum:

It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)

9. Again, not tank grade. Again, FILLED with weak spots.

10. yeah HBs hitting their breast plates and pauldrons proves SO MUCH.

11. Even regular people have a 1/3 chance of surviving lightning, with higher chances depending on your fitness level. In a grounded metal suit that doesn't touch their skin? I'd be surprised if a regular human was injured, let alone a SM.

12. Fragmentation grenades are meant to send shrapnel into your skin. Even flak armour would have ridiculous resistance to this. Go find an astartes laughing off a krak grenade or a melta bomb and I'll either be impressed with the marine or the author will make me lose faith in humanity.

13. I'll need a little while to re-find the source for RoF, though 300 is EXTREMELY conservative, most modern rifles fire twice that fast. And they wouldn't need to focus on a single marines, that many shots is many, many times more than they need.

14. Re-read gaunts ghosts. Bonin kills a thrice-wrought chaos ogryn-machine hybrid by jumping on it's back and stabbing it in the back of the head. Size obviously does not matter. Kasrkin are easily better than SM scouts. And if you read Sons of Dorn, you'll see scouts are perfectly capable of killing astartes.

15. They killed two thousand eldar who weren't really even fighting back, AND called it an unthinkable victory, AND it happens to be a massive fanwank too. That DEFINATELY proves SMs are da bombz, rit? PLUS it's not canon, so there's that.

16. Well for one thing the autocannon left a huge furrow in Xander's armour, in the pauldron no less, the thickest part. For another, only three round impacted and would eventually have killed him, and for another Dan Abnett.

17. The cultists were NOT well equipped, NOT well trained. Seriously, you have the oddest interpretations. Also, fluff is the stuff in the front part of rule books and codices, BL is BL and not canon as I have pointed out numerous times.

18. This is the entire reason for astartes existing. They are concentrated force, linebreakers. They open up a hole. They are a support role to the guard, the men who actually get gak done. The astartes are literally the 40k equivalent of cavalry. Just like cavalry, they are very much destructible.

19. That's because they are just like the sardakaur.

20. I'll provide a quote when I have the opportunity to leaf through my GK Omnibus and find the page. In the meantime I'd like you to quote the part where the Emperor shot an exploding celestial body at Horus, since you seem so convinced of it.

21. You think daemons don't do it by force? You think LoC ask permission before devouring souls? Troll.

lexicanum wrote:Lords of Change are the Greater Daemons of Tzeentch.

They are powerful sorcerers and resourceful manipulators who appear to mortals as omniscient beings. They are said to be able to turn scores of men into boneless spawn at a mere glance, destroy an armoured vehicle with a flick of a finger, or wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word. Furthermore they are capable of seeing the near future which allows them to predict their foes and allies every move. Thus a Lord of Change can only be defeated when it is part of one of Tzeentch's grand schemes, when he tricks his own Daemon by sending it false visions of the future.

22. What game were YOU playing? that makes absolutely no sense without outside help, there is no warp resistance to be had. Also, he kinda sorta gets abducted by an inquisitor so...there's that.

Gree wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:SM the videogame. Three Space Marines kill literally thousands of Orks and plenty of daemons without taking any real damage. So their stat line is probably WS 10, always hit everything, BS 10, accurate as all hell, S 5, blam orks with a single hit, T 7, gets punched in the face by a warboss and takes it, W 5, gets repeatedly shot and stabbed without armor but is fine, I 10, hits before everything, A ∞, hit so many times, LD 13, never run away, AV 5, gretchin can pry away your armour

Except it was quite beautifully explained by Captain Titus receiving outside help form chaos. Just like in FW.

Funny, do not recall Chaos helping him.
He was resistant to Warp energies. That was all that was explained.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Could you not make so many quote windows? you're wasting my time.

I make so many quote windows in order to properly take apart your arguments.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Well I can see we've taken facts out of this one. This is devolving into "YES! NO! YES!" so I'm gonna drop it. If you want me to take this point up again PM me.

Not at all. The facts are quite clear. You have posted no consistent examples.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. "They marched out into the field, resplendent in their Polished armour. Oops, deathstriker missile!" How many books would that sell?

And none of that counters my point at all nor does it describe the actual action.
It’s more like

‘’Said artillery positions are taken out by orbital strikes while rapid Astartes assaults tear apart enemy formations before they can react.’’

If you are just going to make stuff up then you don’t really have an argument.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. Lexicanum is indeed a valid source, as everything on that site has it's sources cited, to the page.

No it is not. It is a wiki that anybody can edit. I’ve seen fanfiction on there before.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And this does indeed preclude the possibility of any living astartes being a superior tactician, as it means that it has been generations since the IoM has had a tactician equal to him. That is exactly what it means. If you debate this, I will send you a link to an ESL night school.

No it does not, having not seen a tactician like that for many generations logically will not include those who have lived for centuries.

And of course the exact quote from the Guard Codex is

‘’He had an innate grasp of tactical command and demonstrated a natural genius when devising tactics, the like of which has not been seen in the Imperium for many generations.’’

It means he’s good at making up new tactics, not necessarily a better tactician.

Your welcome BTW.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Mechanicus force are for one thing autonymous, and for another thing consisted of knight Legion Cybernetica and Titans to an extant not seen in "present 40k", unless you're saying each tac marine is worth 10 titans? And Sisters of silence aren't troops. Plus, that is a massive stretch.

They are apart of the Imperium and said quote is vauge. And why would the Sisters of Silence not be troops?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. "lucky" would be winning against the CSM (CSM>SM). When they get a 5:0 K/D ratio you know they are superior.

Once again, it’s stated they got lucky. This we can safely disregard that as an outlier.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And IDGAF about salvation's reach. AND don't even get me started.

Why? Because it’s a non-outlier examples that takes apart your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
A weapon using magnetic propulsion is NOT necessarily a railgun. I recently had a 15-20 page debate about this on dakka.

That’s why I said a mini-one. It’s similar in principle. Obviously it’s not a normal crossbow.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. They are human. Augmented, but still human. In order to be their own species, they need the capacity to reproduce. They lack it, and so are human.

They are not human. They are superhuman.

Space Marine Codex. Pg5

A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a superhuman being born of scientific manipulation and genetic modification, as different from humankind if from iron.. Through years of the most exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament of a Space Marine’s mind and body are forged into a warrior supreme, with battle skills and a faculty of reason that far surpass those of a normal man. Thus transfigured, the Space Marine is forever more separate from those he protects. He is no longer mortal in the truest sense, for a part of his heritage is not that of the immortal Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Their armour is not tank grade. Tank grade armour is tank grade.

They are certainly tank grade. We have feats of them taking autocannon rounds and effectively ignoring small arms fire.

im2randomghgh wrote:
7. I'm not debating that. The point stands, they can't take as much punishment as 10 humans.

They can take a hell of a lot more when in power armor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. Actually, lasguns Penetrate these weak areas easily.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The joints are toughened rubber, of course an amazingly powerful laser beam is going to penetrate.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Otherwise power armour would be a 1+ inv save.

Game stats are irrelevant. They are deliberately designed to be fair and balanced and change with every edition.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And according to lexicanum: It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

im2randomghgh wrote:
9. Again, not tank grade. Again, FILLED with weak spots.

The actual fluff would disagree with you. I’ve noticed you have not posted any examples even when I’ve went and posted many of my own.

im2randomghgh wrote:
10. yeah HBs hitting their breast plates and pauldrons proves SO MUCH.

It proves they are taking heavy weapons fire quite well. And were doe sit mention they are just hitting the breastplates and pauldrons in the quote?

im2randomghgh wrote:
11. Even regular people have a 1/3 chance of surviving lightning, with higher chances depending on your fitness level. In a grounded metal suit that doesn't touch their skin? I'd be surprised if a regular human was injured, let alone a SM.

Said lighting was blasting craters and specifying described striking with the force of a missile. They certainly had some form for kinetic energy (One Astartes was knocked down)

im2randomghgh wrote:
12. Fragmentation grenades are meant to send shrapnel into your skin. Even flak armour would have ridiculous resistance to this. Go find an astartes laughing off a krak grenade or a melta bomb and I'll either be impressed with the marine or the author will make me lose faith in humanity.

Can you give me proof it was a fragmentation grenade? There is no mention of shrapnel, just an explosion.

im2randomghgh wrote:
13. I'll need a little while to re-find the source for RoF, though 300 is EXTREMELY conservative, most modern rifles fire twice that fast.

The model the ghosts were stated to use a Number 98 Lucius Pattern lasrifle with 150 shots per clip.

im2randomghgh wrote:
14. Re-read gaunts ghosts. Bonin kills a thrice-wrought chaos ogryn-machine hybrid by jumping on it's back and stabbing it in the back of the head. Size obviously does not matter

An ogryn is not an Astartes nor is it wearing power armor. Your point fails.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Kasrkin are easily better than SM scouts.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And if you read Sons of Dorn, you'll see scouts are perfectly capable of killing astartes.

Natural, as they are Astartes themselves.

im2randomghgh wrote:
15. They killed two thousand eldar who weren't really even fighting back,

They were certainly fighting back.

im2randomghgh wrote:
AND called it an unthinkable victory,

But a feat.

But if that’s not for you then we have PRiad taking out an entire boarding party by himself and then fighting 40 Dark Eldar and winning by himself later in the book.

im2randomghgh wrote:
AND it happens to be a massive fanwank too.

How is it a fanwank if it’s published in an official Black Library novel with GW’s full consent?

im2randomghgh wrote:
PLUS it's not canon, so there's that.

Why is it not canon? If it’s not canon then you Gaunt’s Ghost examples are not canon either.

im2randomghgh wrote:
16. Well for one thing the autocannon left a huge furrow in Xander's armour,

No, it was a ‘’denting scorch’’ hardly a huge furrow.

im2randomghgh wrote:
in the pauldron no less, the thickest part.

Proof and quotes that the pauldron is the thickest part?

im2randomghgh wrote:
For another, only three round impacted

No we don’t know that. Caliges was driven back three spaces, but that does not say anything of the amount of hits he took.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would eventually have killed him,

Where does it say it would have eventually killed him?

im2randomghgh wrote:
and for another Dan Abnett.

You mean the same author you are citing for the Gaunt’s Ghosts?

im2randomghgh wrote:
17. The cultists were NOT well equipped, NOT well trained.

Are you referring to the farmers or the refinery? The ones in the latter were certainly well-equipped with lasguns and heavy weapons and we have no reason otherwise to believe they were not trained well.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seriously, you have the oddest interpretations.

I only have what the quotes tell me. Seemingly it is you who is making stuff up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, fluff is the stuff in the front part of rule books and codices, BL is BL and not canon as I have pointed out numerous times.

Black Library is perfectly canon. Show he were it says it’s not.

And if it’s not canon why are you citing the Ghost novels to support your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
18. This is the entire reason for astartes existing. They are concentrated force, linebreakers. They open up a hole. They are a support role to the guard, the men who actually get gak done. The astartes are literally the 40k equivalent of cavalry. Just like cavalry, they are very much destructible.

That’s nice, and now we have numerous, numerous examples of Astartes taking on odds far beyond what a mere tenfold men would do.

For example, 30 Crimson Fists taking on over six hundred orks (With admittedly some help from Eldar Rangers) and with 300 White Panthers conquering an entire world. All studio fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:
19. That's because they are just like the sardakaur.

Not sure what you are talking about.

im2randomghgh wrote:
In the meantime I'd like you to quote the part where the Emperor shot an exploding celestial body at Horus, since you seem so convinced of it.

Okay

Visions of Darkness. Pg. 47

‘’Mustering every iota of his concentration, he focused his psychic might into a bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun.’’

This was reprinted from an earlier White Dwarf story by Bill King.

im2randomghgh wrote:
21. You think daemons don't do it by force? You think LoC ask permission before devouring souls? Troll.

Then you will provide me proof and quotes of them performing a similar feat.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They are powerful sorcerers and resourceful manipulators who appear to mortals as omniscient beings. They are said to be able to turn scores of men into boneless spawn at a mere glance, destroy an armoured vehicle with a flick of a finger, or wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word. Furthermore they are capable of seeing the near future which allows them to predict their foes and allies every move. Thus a Lord of Change can only be defeated when it is part of one of Tzeentch's grand schemes, when he tricks his own Daemon by sending it false visions of the future.

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

None of that, matches the Emperor however.

im2randomghgh wrote:
22. What game were YOU playing?

Warhammer 40k. Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:
that makes absolutely no sense without outside help, there is no warp resistance to be had. Also, he kinda sorta gets abducted by an inquisitor so...there's that.

Titus is explicitly stated to demonstrate an unnatural resistance to the warp by both the Chaos Lord and the Inquisitor. No mention of all is made of his combat abilities.

If they have T 5 and 2 wounds whaat would orks have?
T6 2 Wounds for a boy?

Back to OP

WS 5 BS 4 S4 T5 I5 A2 W2 Ld 9

+Feel No Pain

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Could you not make so many quote windows? you're wasting my time.

I make so many quote windows in order to properly take apart your arguments.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Well I can see we've taken facts out of this one. This is devolving into "YES! NO! YES!" so I'm gonna drop it. If you want me to take this point up again PM me.

Not at all. The facts are quite clear. You have posted no consistent examples.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. "They marched out into the field, resplendent in their Polished armour. Oops, deathstriker missile!" How many books would that sell?

And none of that counters my point at all nor does it describe the actual action.
It’s more like

‘’Said artillery positions are taken out by orbital strikes while rapid Astartes assaults tear apart enemy formations before they can react.’’

If you are just going to make stuff up then you don’t really have an argument.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. Lexicanum is indeed a valid source, as everything on that site has it's sources cited, to the page.

No it is not. It is a wiki that anybody can edit. I’ve seen fanfiction on there before.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And this does indeed preclude the possibility of any living astartes being a superior tactician, as it means that it has been generations since the IoM has had a tactician equal to him. That is exactly what it means. If you debate this, I will send you a link to an ESL night school.

No it does not, having not seen a tactician like that for many generations logically will not include those who have lived for centuries.

And of course the exact quote from the Guard Codex is

‘’He had an innate grasp of tactical command and demonstrated a natural genius when devising tactics, the like of which has not been seen in the Imperium for many generations.’’

It means he’s good at making up new tactics, not necessarily a better tactician.

Your welcome BTW.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Mechanicus force are for one thing autonymous, and for another thing consisted of knight Legion Cybernetica and Titans to an extant not seen in "present 40k", unless you're saying each tac marine is worth 10 titans? And Sisters of silence aren't troops. Plus, that is a massive stretch.

They are apart of the Imperium and said quote is vauge. And why would the Sisters of Silence not be troops?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. "lucky" would be winning against the CSM (CSM>SM). When they get a 5:0 K/D ratio you know they are superior.

Once again, it’s stated they got lucky. This we can safely disregard that as an outlier.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And IDGAF about salvation's reach. AND don't even get me started.

Why? Because it’s a non-outlier examples that takes apart your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
A weapon using magnetic propulsion is NOT necessarily a railgun. I recently had a 15-20 page debate about this on dakka.

That’s why I said a mini-one. It’s similar in principle. Obviously it’s not a normal crossbow.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. They are human. Augmented, but still human. In order to be their own species, they need the capacity to reproduce. They lack it, and so are human.

They are not human. They are superhuman.

Space Marine Codex. Pg5

A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a superhuman being born of scientific manipulation and genetic modification, as different from humankind if from iron.. Through years of the most exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament of a Space Marine’s mind and body are forged into a warrior supreme, with battle skills and a faculty of reason that far surpass those of a normal man. Thus transfigured, the Space Marine is forever more separate from those he protects. He is no longer mortal in the truest sense, for a part of his heritage is not that of the immortal Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Their armour is not tank grade. Tank grade armour is tank grade.

They are certainly tank grade. We have feats of them taking autocannon rounds and effectively ignoring small arms fire.

im2randomghgh wrote:
7. I'm not debating that. The point stands, they can't take as much punishment as 10 humans.

They can take a hell of a lot more when in power armor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. Actually, lasguns Penetrate these weak areas easily.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The joints are toughened rubber, of course an amazingly powerful laser beam is going to penetrate.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Otherwise power armour would be a 1+ inv save.

Game stats are irrelevant. They are deliberately designed to be fair and balanced and change with every edition.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And according to lexicanum: It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

im2randomghgh wrote:
9. Again, not tank grade. Again, FILLED with weak spots.

The actual fluff would disagree with you. I’ve noticed you have not posted any examples even when I’ve went and posted many of my own.

im2randomghgh wrote:
10. yeah HBs hitting their breast plates and pauldrons proves SO MUCH.

It proves they are taking heavy weapons fire quite well. And were doe sit mention they are just hitting the breastplates and pauldrons in the quote?

im2randomghgh wrote:
11. Even regular people have a 1/3 chance of surviving lightning, with higher chances depending on your fitness level. In a grounded metal suit that doesn't touch their skin? I'd be surprised if a regular human was injured, let alone a SM.

Said lighting was blasting craters and specifying described striking with the force of a missile. They certainly had some form for kinetic energy (One Astartes was knocked down)

im2randomghgh wrote:
12. Fragmentation grenades are meant to send shrapnel into your skin. Even flak armour would have ridiculous resistance to this. Go find an astartes laughing off a krak grenade or a melta bomb and I'll either be impressed with the marine or the author will make me lose faith in humanity.

Can you give me proof it was a fragmentation grenade? There is no mention of shrapnel, just an explosion.

im2randomghgh wrote:
13. I'll need a little while to re-find the source for RoF, though 300 is EXTREMELY conservative, most modern rifles fire twice that fast.

The model the ghosts were stated to use a Number 98 Lucius Pattern lasrifle with 150 shots per clip.

im2randomghgh wrote:
14. Re-read gaunts ghosts. Bonin kills a thrice-wrought chaos ogryn-machine hybrid by jumping on it's back and stabbing it in the back of the head. Size obviously does not matter

An ogryn is not an Astartes nor is it wearing power armor. Your point fails.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Kasrkin are easily better than SM scouts.

Proof and quotes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And if you read Sons of Dorn, you'll see scouts are perfectly capable of killing astartes.

Natural, as they are Astartes themselves.

im2randomghgh wrote:
15. They killed two thousand eldar who weren't really even fighting back,

They were certainly fighting back.

im2randomghgh wrote:
AND called it an unthinkable victory,

But a feat.

But if that’s not for you then we have PRiad taking out an entire boarding party by himself and then fighting 40 Dark Eldar and winning by himself later in the book.

im2randomghgh wrote:
AND it happens to be a massive fanwank too.

How is it a fanwank if it’s published in an official Black Library novel with GW’s full consent?

im2randomghgh wrote:
PLUS it's not canon, so there's that.

Why is it not canon? If it’s not canon then you Gaunt’s Ghost examples are not canon either.

im2randomghgh wrote:
16. Well for one thing the autocannon left a huge furrow in Xander's armour,

No, it was a ‘’denting scorch’’ hardly a huge furrow.

im2randomghgh wrote:
in the pauldron no less, the thickest part.

Proof and quotes that the pauldron is the thickest part?

im2randomghgh wrote:
For another, only three round impacted

No we don’t know that. Caliges was driven back three spaces, but that does not say anything of the amount of hits he took.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would eventually have killed him,

Where does it say it would have eventually killed him?

im2randomghgh wrote:
and for another Dan Abnett.

You mean the same author you are citing for the Gaunt’s Ghosts?

im2randomghgh wrote:
17. The cultists were NOT well equipped, NOT well trained.

Are you referring to the farmers or the refinery? The ones in the latter were certainly well-equipped with lasguns and heavy weapons and we have no reason otherwise to believe they were not trained well.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seriously, you have the oddest interpretations.

I only have what the quotes tell me. Seemingly it is you who is making stuff up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, fluff is the stuff in the front part of rule books and codices, BL is BL and not canon as I have pointed out numerous times.

Black Library is perfectly canon. Show he were it says it’s not.

And if it’s not canon why are you citing the Ghost novels to support your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
18. This is the entire reason for astartes existing. They are concentrated force, linebreakers. They open up a hole. They are a support role to the guard, the men who actually get gak done. The astartes are literally the 40k equivalent of cavalry. Just like cavalry, they are very much destructible.

That’s nice, and now we have numerous, numerous examples of Astartes taking on odds far beyond what a mere tenfold men would do.

For example, 30 Crimson Fists taking on over six hundred orks (With admittedly some help from Eldar Rangers) and with 300 White Panthers conquering an entire world. All studio fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:
19. That's because they are just like the sardakaur.

Not sure what you are talking about.

im2randomghgh wrote:
In the meantime I'd like you to quote the part where the Emperor shot an exploding celestial body at Horus, since you seem so convinced of it.

Okay

Visions of Darkness. Pg. 47

‘’Mustering every iota of his concentration, he focused his psychic might into a bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun.’’

This was reprinted from an earlier White Dwarf story by Bill King.

im2randomghgh wrote:
21. You think daemons don't do it by force? You think LoC ask permission before devouring souls? Troll.

Then you will provide me proof and quotes of them performing a similar feat.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They are powerful sorcerers and resourceful manipulators who appear to mortals as omniscient beings. They are said to be able to turn scores of men into boneless spawn at a mere glance, destroy an armoured vehicle with a flick of a finger, or wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word. Furthermore they are capable of seeing the near future which allows them to predict their foes and allies every move. Thus a Lord of Change can only be defeated when it is part of one of Tzeentch's grand schemes, when he tricks his own Daemon by sending it false visions of the future.

Lexicanum is not a valid source.

None of that, matches the Emperor however.

im2randomghgh wrote:
22. What game were YOU playing?

Warhammer 40k. Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:
that makes absolutely no sense without outside help, there is no warp resistance to be had. Also, he kinda sorta gets abducted by an inquisitor so...there's that.

Titus is explicitly stated to demonstrate an unnatural resistance to the warp by both the Chaos Lord and the Inquisitor. No mention of all is made of his combat abilities.

2. "Not at all" just proves my point of this becoming "YES NO YES". Irony?

3. The problem with that is if you are including ships friendly to the SM, you must include ships friendly to the Navy. The navy would win every single time, most assuredly.

4. Lexicanum is the single most valid source on the entire internet. Also, should you wish to have changes made to an article, you must post in the discussion page and request an admin do it, last time I checked. Would you care to share an example of fanfic on Lexicanum?

5. "It means he’s good at making up new tactics, not necessarily a better tactician." You make my head hurt. Devising tactics is what makes you a tactician, if you can't, you aren't a tactician. And the IoM not having a tactician equal to him for generations means it has been generations since a single living Imperial soul has had tactical acumen to match his.

6. Sisters of Silence (Departmento Investigates) were warrior-investigators, meant to apprehend psykers and were the gaolers of the Black Ships. I.E. not troops, for the same reason Inquisitors and Assassins are not troops.

7. They did get lucky, but luck alone doesn't change what should have been, according to you, a 0:15 defeat into a 5:0 victory.

8. Actually, it is extremely outlier. You'll find that each author has their own view of 40k and so the books vary wildly. The books written by codex authors and generally the respectable BL authors have astartes at around 2m (6'6) to 7 feet for an abnormally large one.

9. Size does not define a railgun. Mini-railgun and non-railgun related magnetically propelled quarrels are not the same thing. Either way, it is considerably weaker than a lasgun, which makes the spot of flesh it hits explode.

10. They are more than a human, but they are still human. They are Homo Sapiens Sapiens just like the rest of us. They are half a foot taller, more muscular and having slightly more redundancy built in, but it does not change the fact that they are quite fundamentally human.

11. Leman Russ' main battle tanks have tank grade armour. Dreadnoughts have very light tank grade armour. Tactical Dreadnoughts have armour that is somewhere in between Heavy Infantry and super, super, super light tank. Power armour is just heavy infantry armour.

12. Not if the humans are in flak armour. Flak armour can deflect bolts.

13. Scroll down. I quoted it a few points later.

14. I'll go through mah bookcaze and loooooook for mah sourcies, ookay?

15. I'll PM you about this one shortly, It's too long an issue to lump in with everything else.

16. See above. Wikis are perfectly reliable. Wikipedia actually has higher accuracy than encyclopedia Brittanica.

17. No, they are partial astartes. They are bigger than stronger than humans, but space marines are bigger and stronger than them.

18. They were packing up any resistance would be less than symbolic even. Tell me, if SEALs burst into your home while you were sleeping or in the shower, and you had to fight them, how successful would you be?

19. Well this is the same OTT character who basically killed a water version of a Shai'Hulud with a spear. Seriously, pick your sources carefully or you weaken your argument.

20. It is not canon due to BL source contradicting each other in just about every single book. Plus, Dan Abnett has been known to ignore canon in the interest of writing a more interesting book.

21. I know it's not. The point of my bringing up GG was to show the contradictions.

22. For for it to have caused a scorch, there would need to be massive friction, meaning a considerable rent in the armour. Plus I'm not sure why you brought up Xander in the first place since it was a glancing hit.

23. Proof? In Savage Scars Veteran Sergeant Sarik explicitly stated it was, and repeatedly used it as a shield to put between himself and pulse rounds.

24. SO you think some autocannon shots are driving him back, while others just ping off harmlessly? That's silly.

25. -_- srsly?

26. See earlier points.

27. Both. And lasguns are as cheap as dirt in 40k, and they are cultists, there is literally zero reason to assume training of any sort.

28. Seemingly nothing. You have demonstrated several times since the start of this ignorance of several pieces of official canon that are so widely known as to be assumed knowledge.

29. @ 30 crimson fists, 300 Guardsmen would have no trouble killing 600 ork boyz, especially with help from eldar rangers.
@ 300 Panthers, 1000 Guardsmen in Imperial Glory almost took out an ork WAAAGH! 3000 Definately would have succeeded.

30. Ignorance of the genre? The Sardaukar are the Emperor's elite in the dune universe. They are so used to being superior troops and winning a good majority of engagements that they couldn't fathom defeat, and that was how they were beaten (and with atomics).

31. With the force of. See? it is an analogy. He didn't shoot a dying star out of his soul, that would be too anime.

32. "wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word" I even had that in my last post.

33. And I know a LoC isn't quite as powerful as the Emperor, but it's not far off either. You seem to think the empy insta-wins any battle by default, ignoring the fact that horus and Abaddon had to save him form an ork on Ullanor.

35. It even says in the game he had outside help. There is no such thing as warp resistance without the aide of a psychic god. That's like declaring you have immunity to drowning and it's only kinda this weird thing you can do where you breathe water. And Space Marines can't kill 1000+ orks, including several weirdboyz, Nobz, Mega Nobz, 'Ard boyz and a Warlord. And they certainly can't kill dozens upon dozens of traitor marines and hundreds of daemon and cultists and a daemon prince.

Even a single CSM showing up would most likely mean the death of at least one of titus' warriors. And when you get a Terminator Sorcerer Lord/Daemon Prince of Chaos undivided...Titus had help.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. "Not at all" just proves my point of this becoming "YES NO YES". Irony?

The difference is I’m actually supporting my argument.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. The problem with that is if you are including ships friendly to the SM, you must include ships friendly to the Navy. The navy would win every single time, most assuredly.

The Navy is not part of the Guard and usually the Navy does not aid rebellions or xenos.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Lexicanum is the single most valid source on the entire internet.

Not it is not. It is a wiki. Go and look up the actual sources please.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Would you care to share an example of fanfic on Lexicanum?

It got deleted but I’ve seen it.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. "It means he’s good at making up new tactics, not necessarily a better tactician." You make my head hurt. Devising tactics is what makes you a tactician, if you can't, you aren't a tactician.

No, applying tactics effectively is what makes a tactician. I can make up new tactics all day, however if none of them work at all it doesn’t make me into a good tactician.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the IoM not having a tactician equal to him for generations means it has been generations since a single living Imperial soul has had tactical acumen to match his.

Except that’s not what the actual quote says.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. Sisters of Silence (Departmento Investigates) were warrior-investigators, meant to apprehend psykers and were the gaolers of the Black Ships. I.E. not troops, for the same reason Inquisitors and Assassins are not troops.

That does not make them not troops at all.

Go get me a statement in 40k fluff saying they are not troops.

im2randomghgh wrote:
7. They did get lucky, but luck alone doesn't change what should have been, according to you, a 0:15 defeat into a 5:0 victory.

Yes it would (That's why it's luck after all), and that’s why we put it as an outlier and not a normal example.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. Actually, it is extremely outlier.

Not at all. Nothing about the example is stated to be usual or odd. Kolea even states he knows that the Astartes will slaughter hundreds and this is an experienced Guard officer speaking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
You'll find that each author has their own view of 40k and so the books vary wildly.

Not really, Astartes being demigods is quite consistent.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The books written by codex authors and generally the respectable BL authors have astartes at around 2m (6'6) to 7 feet for an abnormally large one.

Not sure how this is relevant to their combat performance.

im2randomghgh wrote:

9. Size does not define a railgun.

But the principle does.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, it is considerably weaker than a lasgun, which makes the spot of flesh it hits explode.

Proof and quotes that it’s exceptionaly weaker than a lasgun?

im2randomghgh wrote:
10. They are more than a human, but they are still human. They are Homo Sapiens Sapiens just like the rest of us. They are half a foot taller, more muscular and having slightly more redundancy built in, but it does not change the fact that they are quite fundamentally human.

No they are not. They are superhuman. I just posted a bit of studio fluff saying that. You seem to enjoying ignoring the fluff though.

im2randomghgh wrote:
11. Leman Russ' main battle tanks have tank grade armour. Dreadnoughts have very light tank grade armour. Tactical Dreadnoughts have armour that is somewhere in between Heavy Infantry and super, super, super light tank. Power armour is just heavy infantry armour.

Again, the actual fluff would disagree with you. They take autocannon rounds and live.

im2randomghgh wrote:
12. Not if the humans are in flak armour. Flak armour can deflect bolts.

Your joking right? Bolter rounds reduce Guardsmen to bloody gibs all the time. Read pretty much any Astartes vs. Guard action.

As far as I understand it, you ar claiming that lasguns can penetrate power armor but bolters can penetrate flak armor?

im2randomghgh wrote:

13. Scroll down. I quoted it a few points later.

You did not. You put up an unsupported quote from Lexicanum. Get the actual quote from an actual source or it's just fanfiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:
16. See above. Wikis are perfectly reliable. Wikipedia actually has higher accuracy than encyclopedia Brittanica..

No they are not. Give me more proof that it is reliable.

im2randomghgh wrote:
17. No, they are partial astartes. They are bigger than stronger than humans, but space marines are bigger and stronger than them.

Due to your inability to use the quote function I’m actually not sure what you are talking about. The Ogyrns in the Ghost books were certainly not Astartes. Go give me a quote saying they were even partial Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
18. They were packing up any resistance would be less than symbolic even. Tell me, if SEALs burst into your home while you were sleeping or in the shower, and you had to fight them, how successful would you be?

Again, not sure what you are talking about, but the cultists at the refinery were defending it. Not packing up. The short story makes this clear.

im2randomghgh wrote:
19. Well this is the same OTT character who basically killed a water version of a Shai'Hulud with a spear.

Are you referring to Priad hunting sea-wyrms? Said spear was made of highly advanced metals and flung by a man with superhuman strength. I see no problem.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seriously, pick your sources carefully or you weaken your argument.

Then it is a good thing I picked an official Black Library novel approved by GW.

im2randomghgh wrote:
20. It is not canon due to BL source contradicting each other in just about every single book..

That is not proof, that is your flawed and unsupported opinion. Give me a statement from GW saying that BL is not canon.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, Dan Abnett has been known to ignore canon in the interest of writing a more interesting book.

Proof?

im2randomghgh wrote:
21. I know it's not. The point of my bringing up GG was to show the contradictions.

Except we have no contradictions at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:
22. For for it to have caused a scorch, there would need to be massive friction, meaning a considerable rent in the armour.

No it does not need to have that. I can go get a lighter and scorch my dinner plate without a big dent.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus I'm not sure why you brought up Xander in the first place since it was a glancing hit.

I bought him up because you brought him up in the first place.

im2randomghgh wrote:
23. Proof? In Savage Scars Veteran Sergeant Sarik explicitly stated it was, and repeatedly used it as a shield to put between himself and pulse rounds.

Still not sure what part to my post you are responding to. Perhaps you could post a quote from said novel to actually support your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
24. SO you think some autocannon shots are driving him back, while others just ping off harmlessly? That's silly.

No it’s quite reasonable. We have a record of what damage he takes, he just loses a finger and a bolter at point blank range. We have no reason to believe otherwise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

25. -_- srsly?

Yes, seriously.

im2randomghgh wrote:
26. See earlier points.

I’ve already taken the liberty to take apart said points.

im2randomghgh wrote:
27. Both. And lasguns are as cheap as dirt in 40k, and they are cultists, there is literally zero reason to assume training of any sort.

Lasguns are general Guard issue. Local PDF in Striaght Silver were shocked to see lasguns. And we have no reason to believe they were not trained. They obviously had enough training to use heavy weapons and had Chaos Marine support. You have no basis at all for them being untrained.

im2randomghgh wrote:
28. Seemingly nothing. You have demonstrated several times since the start of this ignorance of several pieces of official canon that are so widely known as to be assumed knowledge.

And you have demonstrated your preference to simply ignore pieces of fluff flat out and have the nasty habit of being unable to support your assertions effectively.

im2randomghgh wrote:

29. @ 30 crimson fists, 300 Guardsmen would have no trouble killing 600 ork boyz, especially with help from eldar rangers.

It was twenty Crimson Fists actually and you need to give me proof that they can do that in close quarters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
@ 300 Panthers, 1000 Guardsmen in Imperial Glory almost took out an ork WAAAGH! 3000 Definately would have succeeded.

And what size was said Ork Wagggh?

im2randomghgh wrote:
30. Ignorance of the genre? The Sardaukar are the Emperor's elite in the dune universe. They are so used to being superior troops and winning a good majority of engagements that they couldn't fathom defeat, and that was how they were beaten (and with atomics).

Yes, and I’m not sure why the hell you are bringing Dune into an unrelated 40k discussion.

im2randomghgh wrote:
31. With the force of. See? it is an analogy. He didn't shoot a dying star out of his soul, that would be too anime.

That does not change the fact that he can shoot supernova level attacks out of his soul, which was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:
32. "wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word" I even had that in my last post.

That again, does not put him on the Emperor’s level nor does that involve destroying a soul.

im2randomghgh wrote:

33. And I know a LoC isn't quite as powerful as the Emperor, but it's not far off either. You seem to think the empy insta-wins any battle by default, ignoring the fact that horus and Abaddon had to save him form an ork on Ullanor.

They did not rescue him on Ullanor. The actual incident that was quoted in IA Black Legion was that an ork warlord struggled to choke the life out of the Emperor. It says nothing about the Emperor’s state a the time or what the ork warlord does.

Fortunately we now have far more demonstrable feats of the Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
35. It even says in the game he had outside help. .

No it does not. The closest you have is Inquisitor Thrax at the end asking if he had unholy assistance in banishing daemon prince, not assistance in killing huge numbers of orks.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's like declaring you have immunity to drowning and it's only kinda this weird thing you can do where you breathe water.

That’s why it was considered unsual.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And Space Marines can't kill 1000+ orks, including several weirdboyz, Nobz, Mega Nobz, 'Ard boyz and a Warlord.

They certainly can. 50 Astartes in Brothers of the Snake slaughter ten thousand orks in hand to hand combat.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And they certainly can't kill dozens upon dozens of traitor marines and hundreds of daemon and cultists and a daemon prince.

Titus hardly slew dozens of Chaos Marines and hundreds of daemons. And the Daemon Prince appeared to be only half ascended.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Even a single CSM showing up would most likely mean the death of at least one of titus' warriors.

We had only three Ultramarines show up for most of the game with a squad of Ultramarines coming down in the end.

And why would it necessarily mean the death of one of his warriors?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And when you get a Terminator Sorcerer Lord/Daemon Prince of Chaos undivided...Titus had help.

Proof?

Couldn't read this thread all the way through...too much fanboydom. Seriously guys, SM can and do get beat. Accept it...some of you guys sound way too much like a certain well known and hated author of one codex space marines...

UberhAxTHC wrote:Couldn't read this thread all the way through...too much fanboydom. Seriously guys, SM can and do get beat. Accept it...some of you guys sound way too much like a certain well known and hated author of one codex space marines...

I have no opposition to Astartes getting beat. I am objecting to the false notion that an Astartes could not take out a couple dozen Guardsmen.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. "Not at all" just proves my point of this becoming "YES NO YES". Irony?

The difference is I’m actually supporting my argument.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. The problem with that is if you are including ships friendly to the SM, you must include ships friendly to the Navy. The navy would win every single time, most assuredly.

The Navy is not part of the Guard and usually the Navy does not aid rebellions or xenos.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Lexicanum is the single most valid source on the entire internet.

Not it is not. It is a wiki. Go and look up the actual sources please.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Would you care to share an example of fanfic on Lexicanum?

It got deleted but I’ve seen it.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. "It means he’s good at making up new tactics, not necessarily a better tactician." You make my head hurt. Devising tactics is what makes you a tactician, if you can't, you aren't a tactician.

No, applying tactics effectively is what makes a tactician. I can make up new tactics all day, however if none of them work at all it doesn’t make me into a good tactician.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the IoM not having a tactician equal to him for generations means it has been generations since a single living Imperial soul has had tactical acumen to match his.

Except that’s not what the actual quote says.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. Sisters of Silence (Departmento Investigates) were warrior-investigators, meant to apprehend psykers and were the gaolers of the Black Ships. I.E. not troops, for the same reason Inquisitors and Assassins are not troops.

That does not make them not troops at all.

Go get me a statement in 40k fluff saying they are not troops.

im2randomghgh wrote:
7. They did get lucky, but luck alone doesn't change what should have been, according to you, a 0:15 defeat into a 5:0 victory.

Yes it would (That's why it's luck after all), and that’s why we put it as an outlier and not a normal example.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. Actually, it is extremely outlier.

Not at all. Nothing about the example is stated to be usual or odd. Kolea even states he knows that the Astartes will slaughter hundreds and this is an experienced Guard officer speaking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
You'll find that each author has their own view of 40k and so the books vary wildly.

Not really, Astartes being demigods is quite consistent.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The books written by codex authors and generally the respectable BL authors have astartes at around 2m (6'6) to 7 feet for an abnormally large one.

Not sure how this is relevant to their combat performance.

im2randomghgh wrote:

9. Size does not define a railgun.

But the principle does.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, it is considerably weaker than a lasgun, which makes the spot of flesh it hits explode.

Proof and quotes that it’s exceptionaly weaker than a lasgun?

im2randomghgh wrote:
10. They are more than a human, but they are still human. They are Homo Sapiens Sapiens just like the rest of us. They are half a foot taller, more muscular and having slightly more redundancy built in, but it does not change the fact that they are quite fundamentally human.

No they are not. They are superhuman. I just posted a bit of studio fluff saying that. You seem to enjoying ignoring the fluff though.

im2randomghgh wrote:
11. Leman Russ' main battle tanks have tank grade armour. Dreadnoughts have very light tank grade armour. Tactical Dreadnoughts have armour that is somewhere in between Heavy Infantry and super, super, super light tank. Power armour is just heavy infantry armour.

Again, the actual fluff would disagree with you. They take autocannon rounds and live.

im2randomghgh wrote:
12. Not if the humans are in flak armour. Flak armour can deflect bolts.

Your joking right? Bolter rounds reduce Guardsmen to bloody gibs all the time. Read pretty much any Astartes vs. Guard action.

As far as I understand it, you ar claiming that lasguns can penetrate power armor but bolters can penetrate flak armor?

im2randomghgh wrote:

13. Scroll down. I quoted it a few points later.

You did not. You put up an unsupported quote from Lexicanum. Get the actual quote from an actual source or it's just fanfiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:
16. See above. Wikis are perfectly reliable. Wikipedia actually has higher accuracy than encyclopedia Brittanica..

No they are not. Give me more proof that it is reliable.

im2randomghgh wrote:
17. No, they are partial astartes. They are bigger than stronger than humans, but space marines are bigger and stronger than them.

Due to your inability to use the quote function I’m actually not sure what you are talking about. The Ogyrns in the Ghost books were certainly not Astartes. Go give me a quote saying they were even partial Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
18. They were packing up any resistance would be less than symbolic even. Tell me, if SEALs burst into your home while you were sleeping or in the shower, and you had to fight them, how successful would you be?

Again, not sure what you are talking about, but the cultists at the refinery were defending it. Not packing up. The short story makes this clear.

im2randomghgh wrote:
19. Well this is the same OTT character who basically killed a water version of a Shai'Hulud with a spear.

Are you referring to Priad hunting sea-wyrms? Said spear was made of highly advanced metals and flung by a man with superhuman strength. I see no problem.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seriously, pick your sources carefully or you weaken your argument.

Then it is a good thing I picked an official Black Library novel approved by GW.

im2randomghgh wrote:
20. It is not canon due to BL source contradicting each other in just about every single book..

That is not proof, that is your flawed and unsupported opinion. Give me a statement from GW saying that BL is not canon.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, Dan Abnett has been known to ignore canon in the interest of writing a more interesting book.

Proof?

im2randomghgh wrote:
21. I know it's not. The point of my bringing up GG was to show the contradictions.

Except we have no contradictions at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:
22. For for it to have caused a scorch, there would need to be massive friction, meaning a considerable rent in the armour.

No it does not need to have that. I can go get a lighter and scorch my dinner plate without a big dent.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus I'm not sure why you brought up Xander in the first place since it was a glancing hit.

I bought him up because you brought him up in the first place.

im2randomghgh wrote:
23. Proof? In Savage Scars Veteran Sergeant Sarik explicitly stated it was, and repeatedly used it as a shield to put between himself and pulse rounds.

Still not sure what part to my post you are responding to. Perhaps you could post a quote from said novel to actually support your argument?

im2randomghgh wrote:
24. SO you think some autocannon shots are driving him back, while others just ping off harmlessly? That's silly.

No it’s quite reasonable. We have a record of what damage he takes, he just loses a finger and a bolter at point blank range. We have no reason to believe otherwise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

25. -_- srsly?

Yes, seriously.

im2randomghgh wrote:
26. See earlier points.

I’ve already taken the liberty to take apart said points.

im2randomghgh wrote:
27. Both. And lasguns are as cheap as dirt in 40k, and they are cultists, there is literally zero reason to assume training of any sort.

Lasguns are general Guard issue. Local PDF in Striaght Silver were shocked to see lasguns. And we have no reason to believe they were not trained. They obviously had enough training to use heavy weapons and had Chaos Marine support. You have no basis at all for them being untrained.

im2randomghgh wrote:
28. Seemingly nothing. You have demonstrated several times since the start of this ignorance of several pieces of official canon that are so widely known as to be assumed knowledge.

And you have demonstrated your preference to simply ignore pieces of fluff flat out and have the nasty habit of being unable to support your assertions effectively.

im2randomghgh wrote:

29. @ 30 crimson fists, 300 Guardsmen would have no trouble killing 600 ork boyz, especially with help from eldar rangers.

It was twenty Crimson Fists actually and you need to give me proof that they can do that in close quarters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
@ 300 Panthers, 1000 Guardsmen in Imperial Glory almost took out an ork WAAAGH! 3000 Definately would have succeeded.

And what size was said Ork Wagggh?

im2randomghgh wrote:
30. Ignorance of the genre? The Sardaukar are the Emperor's elite in the dune universe. They are so used to being superior troops and winning a good majority of engagements that they couldn't fathom defeat, and that was how they were beaten (and with atomics).

Yes, and I’m not sure why the hell you are bringing Dune into an unrelated 40k discussion.

im2randomghgh wrote:
31. With the force of. See? it is an analogy. He didn't shoot a dying star out of his soul, that would be too anime.

That does not change the fact that he can shoot supernova level attacks out of his soul, which was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:
32. "wrench the soul out of even the mightiest warriors with a simple word" I even had that in my last post.

That again, does not put him on the Emperor’s level nor does that involve destroying a soul.

im2randomghgh wrote:

33. And I know a LoC isn't quite as powerful as the Emperor, but it's not far off either. You seem to think the empy insta-wins any battle by default, ignoring the fact that horus and Abaddon had to save him form an ork on Ullanor.

They did not rescue him on Ullanor. The actual incident that was quoted in IA Black Legion was that an ork warlord struggled to choke the life out of the Emperor. It says nothing about the Emperor’s state a the time or what the ork warlord does.

Fortunately we now have far more demonstrable feats of the Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
35. It even says in the game he had outside help. .

No it does not. The closest you have is Inquisitor Thrax at the end asking if he had unholy assistance in banishing daemon prince, not assistance in killing huge numbers of orks.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's like declaring you have immunity to drowning and it's only kinda this weird thing you can do where you breathe water.

That’s why it was considered unsual.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And Space Marines can't kill 1000+ orks, including several weirdboyz, Nobz, Mega Nobz, 'Ard boyz and a Warlord.

They certainly can. 50 Astartes in Brothers of the Snake slaughter ten thousand orks in hand to hand combat.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And they certainly can't kill dozens upon dozens of traitor marines and hundreds of daemon and cultists and a daemon prince.

Titus hardly slew dozens of Chaos Marines and hundreds of daemons. And the Daemon Prince appeared to be only half ascended.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Even a single CSM showing up would most likely mean the death of at least one of titus' warriors.

We had only three Ultramarines show up for most of the game with a squad of Ultramarines coming down in the end.

And why would it necessarily mean the death of one of his warriors?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And when you get a Terminator Sorcerer Lord/Daemon Prince of Chaos undivided...Titus had help.

Proof?

1. Again, you're saying "nonononononononono!"

2. I was thinking against guard, specifically. Either way, any force in 40k WILL have a fleet, and the Space Marine fleet is one of the weakest. Their ships are designed for planetary bombardment, not space combat.

3, wikis ARE more reliable, as information rarely, if ever, becomes outdated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

4. And you were saying something about supporting your argument?

5. Coming up with never before seen tactics is what you need to do as a tactician. The execution is up to the troops.

6. That's EXACTLY what it says. "Hasn't seen for generations" is very, very clear.

7. They are INVESTIGATORS. Are police officers soldiers? NO! Neither are the sisters of silence.

8. No. This was an elite missions team. An off the cuff statement does not change the fact that their k/d against space marines thus far is 5:0.

9. You are failing to account for the fact that every single human in the entire IoM has been so thoroughly propagandized that their views on almost everything is skewed, expecially a guard officer, because they would spend much time in the presence of commissars.

10. They are refered to as demigods only metaphorically. There is nothing godly about them. The Emperor, who is not a god, created primarchs, who are not gods, and SM are primarch human hybrids. Nothing to do with gods.

11. There are several books that put them at aroound 8', none of these are to be taken seriously.

12. And the principle tells us it is not a railgun.

13. It took several reynbow shots to kill the space marine, whereas it took one lasgun shot in The Last Detail.

I'll respond to the rest later, I have to go play hockey.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Again, you're saying "nonononononononono!"

While backing it up with proof and quotes. Meanwhile you seem content to ignore everything that doesn’t fit your argument.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. I was thinking against guard, specifically.

Unfortunately that only covers a small part of the battles described in the 40k novels.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. I was thinking against guard, specifically. Either way, any force in 40k WILL have a fleet,

No they are not.

We have multiple examples in the Gaunt books, the Cain books and others of Guard regiments operated without orbital support for long periods of time.

And of course, Space Marine usually operate in confusion with the Imperial Navy. The Marine often fight Traitor Guard and aliens in the books, neither of which will have Navy support.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3, wikis ARE more reliable, as information rarely, if ever, becomes outdated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

Seriously? Citing a Wikipedia article on the reliability of Wikipedia?

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. And you were saying something about supporting your argument?

Correct, maybe you should follow my example.

im2randomghgh wrote:

5. Coming up with never before seen tactics is what you need to do as a tactician. The execution is up to the troops.

Are you familiar with how warfare is conducted at all? Have you ever studied a battle or war? What a tactician does in implement tactics that work. Making up new ones is a good things but not strictly needed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. That's EXACTLY what it says. "Hasn't seen for generations" is very, very clear.

And does not contradict my point at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:
7. They are INVESTIGATORS. Are police officers soldiers? NO! Neither are the sisters of silence.

They are soldiers, or else they would not accompany the Wolves to fight the Thousand Sons.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. No. This was an elite missions team.

Yes I know I’ve already stated that.

im2randomghgh wrote:
8. No. This was an elite missions team. An off the cuff statement does not change the fact that their k/d against space marines thus far is 5:0.

I know, that however does not change said feat was an outlier.

im2randomghgh wrote:
9. You are failing to account for the fact that every single human in the entire IoM has been so thoroughly propagandized that their views on almost everything is skewed, expecially a guard officer, because they would spend much time in the presence of commissars.

And we are still given no reason to believe otherwise. Kolea fights and witnesses them personally himself.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They are refered to as demigods only metaphorically. There is nothing godly about them.

The ability to rip a man apart with their bar hands and descended from someone who might as well be a god is a good indication.

im2randomghgh wrote:
11. There are several books that put them at aroound 8', none of these are to be taken seriously.

You will post proof and quotes to support your argument then.

im2randomghgh wrote:
12. And the principle tells us it is not a railgun.

That’s why I called it a min-railgun.

im2randomghgh wrote:
13. It took several reynbow shots to kill the space marine, whereas it took one lasgun shot in The Last Detail.

No it did not. A badly wounded half-dead Astartes took a las-burst a close range and kept on fighting. I already called you out on this in the PM.

This is the actual quote

Short bursts, no more, two or three rounds at a time. But when the heavy ordnance hit the cultists it blew them apart. He took down eight of them before the first las-burst hit him, in the stomach. He staggered, and the bolter-muzzle dropped, but a second later he had raised it again and blew to pieces the cultist who had shot him.

Then the Astartes dies much later.

The door burst open, and was flung back against the wall with a clang. A huge figure loomed out of the darkness, and more were behind it.
The Astartes was slumped by the huge broken maw of the plexiglass window, a glint of wire wrapped round one arm, disappearing into the smoky vacancy beyond. He bared his teeth in a rictus.
“What kept you?” he asked the hulking shapes as they advanced on him. Then he raised his free arm and fired a full magazine from the bolt pistol into the intruders. Screams and yowls rent the air, and the foremost two shapes were blasted off their feet.
But more were behind them. The howling mob in the doorway poured into the room, firing bolters as they came, the heavy rounds blasting everything to pieces.

You lied.

Gree wrote:
You lied.

So now a mis quote is a lie?

Big word for someone with 23 posts ranked as a brainless zombie to be throwing around.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:
You lied.

So now a mis quote is a lie?

I already pointed that you were wrong in a private message before you posted. You should have already known that.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Big word for someone with 23 posts ranked as a brainless zombie to be throwing around.

My status does not change the fact that you are wrong.