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I personally believe that the Space Marines are not as epic enough on table top as the fluff has them represented.

I know it is due to balance issues of the game which i understand; or no one will want to play against space marines/or everyone would have a space marine army.

So....

I just want to have some FUN with the space marine stats and special rules and share what I believe a true space marine would be like (So I don't want to hear any whining about balance issues or illegal stats)
THIS IS FOR FUN

A standard marine would be

WS 6 - Almost every pic you see of a space marine in close combat, he is the one that is winning!
BS 6 - A whole armoured regiment coming this way? No problem, one space marine with a Lascannon will blow up about 4 tanks before he tactically withdraws to extraction
S 5 - For a Space Marine can backhand a guardsman and break his neck, or any other race for that matter!
T 5 - Even MCs can't easily kill the emprah's finest!
W 2 - Because they always get a wound and still fight on for another few pages!
I 5 - They meant to be superhuman so got to be significantly faster than guardsmen, not slightly!
A 4 - Since a few Space Marines can carve up so so many orks in Helsreach
Ld 12 - They are meant to know NO fear! (Pretty much fearless with no "no reatreat!" drawback)
Sv 2+ - Power Armour is meant to be impenetrable!!!

In addition to this they should have the rules
FEEL NO PAIN - I read so many times their wound heal up quickly during battle due to the laraman cells
COMBAT TACTICS - They can CHOOSE to fail morale tests, it is not they are scared and running, they just think it is more tactical to retreat at the time
5++ INVULNERABLE SAVE - Why?!!! Because the Emprah protects!
RELENTLESS - With the power aid of the power armour they have super human strength thus can fire heavy weapons on the move. Setting up time is for the inferior!

The holy bolter aka automatic rocket launcher that shoots like an assault rifle should not be the same stats as the crappy xenos shurriken catapult.
S4 AP5 rapidfire my a**, what a crap automatic assault rifle that uses rockets as bullets.

It should be S6 AP3, Heavy 4 BLAST! Thats right Heavy 4 BLAST, since bolts are explosive!
Why the HEAVY? Because guardsmen can't handle bolters, they have to brace themselves before firing this automatic rocket launcher! And the Space Marines get RELENTLESS so all goods! Move and shoot those bolters marines!

And what is this 24" crap? Are not bolt rounds designed like rockets (in a flight sense; as well as the explosive sense), therefore ignites the boosters whilst flying in the air in order to cover more distance?
48" please!

With the power armour being a 2+ save some of you may wonder what save the terminator armour gets.

IMHO they would be armour save 1+, as in nothing can kill them except AP1 weapons and powerweapons.
WHY?!!! Because Terminators are meant to be that EPIC and overpowered!
Oh yeah and it comes with 4++ invulnerable btw.
WHY??!!! Because the Emprah protects those with Terminator Armour even MOOAAR!!!

Thats me for now.

Feel free to share what you reckon their stats/special rules should be like.

BS1
WS1
T1
S1
W1
ld1
Av-

There are so many of these guys the crappy stats shouldn't matter.

Hrm, i think the current stats are pretty good. 4s for ST/T/I mean that the marine is well above average and atsknf/Ld8 manages to simulate iron nerves but enough tactical acumen to retreat if necessary.
Bolters are equaly strong enough. They punch trough most bodyarmour and a hit has a very high probability of death for everything that is not an augmented superhuman.
Contrary to popular belief they aren't fully fledged grenade launchers but "merely" use explosive and armour piercing amunition ( so with the need for a propelant and an armour piercing tip the actualy space to store explosives is in all likelyhood somewhat limited, even given the boltround's large calibre ).

By increasing the stats of spacemarines we start to encroach on the territory of creatures which have always been depicted as being tougher, stronger and overal much more dangerous than the average marine could ever hope to be. Since the gamesystem does not allow a stat to be higher than 10 this would lead to quite a few problems when we get to some of the truly nasty critters ( i mean, if the average spacemarine has a WS of 6 and a Captain has perhaps 7 or 8, where would that leave Dark Eldar Archons? Or Greater Daemons? )

A more realistic statline would be

WS5, BS5, Str5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10

Power Armor: 3+ save still

TDA: 2+/5++ still


Bolters would be Str5, AP5, Rapid Fire, but against T4, or below, targets each model that has taken a wound(but survived) takes a Toughness test. if it is failed they suffer an additional wound with saves allowed.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:BS1
WS1
T1
S1
W1
ld1
Av-

There are so many of these guys the crappy stats shouldn't matter.

In 40K, 100,000 is not that much.

What you are saying is that the IoM does not need SM, because its Guardsmen are way better.

I meant IRL, the amount of marine players.

Haters gonna hate.
I agree with everything you wrote.

Grey Templar wrote:A more realistic statline would be

WS5, BS5, Str5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10

Power Armor: 3+ save still

TDA: 2+/5++ still


Bolters would be Str5, AP5, Rapid Fire, but against T4, or below, targets each model that has taken a wound(but survived) takes a Toughness test. if it is failed they suffer an additional wound with saves allowed.

With the limited scale we have for stats i honestly don't see a reason why a spacemarine should have such high stats. They are still more or less human beings and not monstrous creatures.
The same can be said for bolters, they cause huge gaping wounds but so does a vehicle mounted machinegun.

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+

Seriously, that fits them perfectly. They are plenty superhuman and capable of taking on 10-12 normal human troops that way (the codex given rough equivalents)

If you're imagining them as much more than this, then you've lost perspective with everything else in the game universe.

Forget the ridiculousness about WS6 or T5 or whatnot. They're super-soldiers, not ****ing mini hive tyrants. Bolters are equivalent to large caliber automatic weapons, they have no business in any realm being S5/6 Rending, etc. Only in the most ridiculous fanfic and awful BL books (e.g. Brothers of the Snake, C.S Goto stuff) could you imagine them as such.


Look at the fluff as propaganda, it's highly inconsistent in just about every aspect depending on who's writing it and how old it is, and in most situations the enemy would have to literally basically be actively killing themselves en masse to lose to the Space Marines given the numbers involved (500 space marines taking on entire hive worlds with tens or hundreds of thousands of artillery guns and anti-aircraft defenses and tanks and tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of troops? No, please, lets not have any more of that garbage, a Space Marine may be amazing, but he's not going to be worth thousands much less millions of human soldiers with artillery, armor and air support/defense), plot armor goes a long way.

I love all the people taking this SUPER SERIOUSLY. Come on guys, fluff-wise, those stats are bang on. Except for chaos marines. Those guys get slaughtered en-masse by Guardsmen.

I see there is too many people that are too seriouso and that makes me furiouso, since I intended this for fun and being OTT.

Check out the "Movie Marines" rules in White Dwarf 300.

The designers basically admit that the standard 40k game stats for marines don't fit the fluff and they come up with a points list that is more reflective of the 40k fluff. IIRC, it put each standard marine at about 100 points before upgrades.

Here's a bit about them.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/45017.page

And here's BoLS trying to adapt them for 5th edition
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-playtest-movie-marines-in-5e.html

Eilif wrote:Check out the "Movie Marines" rules in White Dwarf 300.

The designers basically admit that the standard 40k game stats for marines don't fit the fluff and they come up with a points list that is more reflective of the 40k fluff. IIRC, it put each standard marine at about 100 points before upgrades.

Here's a bit about them.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/45017.page

And here's BoLS trying to adapt them for 5th edition
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-playtest-movie-marines-in-5e.html

Movie Marines != Fluff Marines. They never say anything about game stats not adequately fitting Space Marines in the WD article. Never were they intended to represent that.

They are simply intended to be silly retreads of 80's action movies with rules like "the script writers hate us" where the ridiculous stats of weapons in the Movie Marine list (like grenades being Battle Cannon shots, Krak missiles are like Rail Guns, and Lascannons penetrate multiple vehicles in a big straight line, etc) don't apply to other armies, or "Stunt Doubles" where marines can swap places with a stunt double to avoid a wound, not to mention a Sergeant with a stat profile that would make a Hive Tyrant jealous.

Ws 10
Bs 10
S 10
t 10
w 10
in 10
A 10
LD 10
SV 2+ and 2+ invun with re-rolls
points cost 10 p
why not there emps finest

I've always preferred the statline for the Inquisitor skirmish game for an indication of the prowess of Space Marines. The standard statline in the rulebook dictates for Astartes (there are roll options too for random stats but we'll go with the average they put in the book);

WS: 75
BS: 75
S: 200
T: 150
I: 85
Willpower: 75
Sagacity: 75
Nerve: 95
Leadership: 75

Thing to bear in mind that on those statlines is that 100 is the human maximum, physically or mentally, without augmentations'/boosters/stimms/drugs, with 100 being the very, very, very peak of a humans capability. The average human in the Inquisitor game has a statline of 20-30 across the board.

Vaktathi wrote:
Movie Marines != Fluff Marines. They never say anything about game stats not adequately fitting Space Marines in the WD article. Never were they intended to represent that.

Sorry, but you're not entirely correct. I have the issue here in front of me.

A few quotes.

"Anyone who has read any Space marine fiction .... may have noticed... the Spacemarines make light work of enemies that would cause them considerably more trouible in an actual game.."

"...Space Marines can be defeated on the tabletop whereas the background presents them as all conquring leviathans of battle who deal two fisted bolt coughing death to all and sundry."

The author then goes on to play both sides. He admitts that the fluff is more powerfull than the game stats while at the same time suggesting that the Marines in 40k fluff may be representative of fiction and the propoganda and films produced by the Imperial government. Still, he nowhere discounts that the fluff presents a far more powerfull marine than the game, and "Movie marines" are expressly designed to represent the marines of fiction.

IMO, the exagerated weapons, "stunt doubles" (allows charachters to carry on when they should be dead) and other rules are all reflections of Marines as they appear in fluff/fiction post-Rogue-Trader.

Hahaha I love the movie marines, those rules does fluff marines some justice.

@nurglerulesslaneshdrools
I like your marine statline OTT ftw!

@Sparks_Havelock
What is this Inquistor skirmish game you speak off, sounds cool.

BS4 WS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 ld8 Sv3+

How about these?

Whoever thinking it should be higher, think: 1S is the difference between a seasoned guardsman who has seen all the battlefields in every condition and had dozens/hundreds of career kills and a gretchin. S5 is the strength of a massive broadside battlesuit, bigger even than terminator armour, carry firepower to destroy just about anything in it's path.

slim116 wrote:Hahaha I love the movie marines, those rules does fluff marines some justice.
@Sparks_Havelock
What is this Inquistor skirmish game you speak off, sounds cool.

Inquisitor may sound cool, but if you want a good 40k Skirmish game, I'd recommend one of the fan-created Necromunda-based skirmish sets commonly referred to as "Inquisimunda". Here's a very well-developed example.
http://empireofghosts.blogspot.com/p/inquisimunda-resources.html

For a faster playing streamlined Skirmish, I recommend "In The Emperor's Name". I really enjoyed these rules when I tried them.
http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/

Inquisitor has it's fans, but it's really more of a role playing game. I read through the rules and it felt virtually unplayable. Of course if you like a ruleset with a level of detail that makes battletech seem streamlined, then it may be just your thing. Either way, it's at least worth a look since you can read it for free from GW here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480007a&categoryId=1100009§ion=&aId=4900004

im2randomghgh wrote:BS4 WS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 ld8 Sv3+

How about these?

Whoever thinking it should be higher, think: 1S is the difference between a seasoned guardsman who has seen all the battlefields in every condition and had dozens/hundreds of career kills and a gretchin. S5 is the strength of a massive broadside battlesuit, bigger even than terminator armour, carry firepower to destroy just about anything in it's path.

Those stats are ideal for a balanced game, but not at all representative of fluff. The issue with fluff is that when Marines show up as the protagonists in ficiton, , they are so superhuman that unless they're fighting other marines they nearly always win, and by a large margin. Statting them by fluff would make for a very one-sided game against marines that would never win, or a very boring army collecting experience as a marine player might only need a few minis in their collection.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually advocating Fluff-based stats for regular gaming. Even the "Movie Marines" don't appeal to me as anything other than a one-off novelty. Still, that doesn't negate the fact that in-game stats don't reflect Fluff very well.

Eilif wrote:

Those stats are ideal for a balanced game, but not at all representative of fluff. The issue with fluff is that when Marines show up as the protagonists in ficiton, , they are so superhuman that unless they're fighting other marines they nearly always win, and by a large margin. Statting them by fluff would make for a very one-sided game against marines that would never win, or a very boring army collecting experience as a marine player might only need a few minis in their collection.

Keep in mind that SM strength varies wildly depending on who's writing them, and often clash with the design studios given comparisons which generally stick to 10/12-1.

Vaktathi wrote:

Eilif wrote:

Those stats are ideal for a balanced game, but not at all representative of fluff. The issue with fluff is that when Marines show up as the protagonists in ficiton, , they are so superhuman that unless they're fighting other marines they nearly always win, and by a large margin. Statting them by fluff would make for a very one-sided game against marines that would never win, or a very boring army collecting experience as a marine player might only need a few minis in their collection.

Keep in mind that SM strength varies wildly depending on who's writing them, and often clash with the design studios given comparisons which generally stick to 10/12-1.

Can you give me quotes and sources on that? Looking through my Second Edition Codex Ultramarines, my Third Edition Marine Codex, my Fourth Edition Marine Codex and my Fifth Editon Marine Codex I can't find anything that says that.

I wouldn't go about boosting all there stats. They actually seem about right. Like they shouldn't have more toughness then an nob because a nob is always shown as tougher. The nie un beatable seems to come from there ability to cheat the odds and to recover, so I would do that.

To start every one gets one more wound. Then every turn each model gets to re roll a roll or heal one of there wounds.

Things would get unbalanced quickly, but I think that is kind of the point.

Gree wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Eilif wrote:

Those stats are ideal for a balanced game, but not at all representative of fluff. The issue with fluff is that when Marines show up as the protagonists in ficiton, , they are so superhuman that unless they're fighting other marines they nearly always win, and by a large margin. Statting them by fluff would make for a very one-sided game against marines that would never win, or a very boring army collecting experience as a marine player might only need a few minis in their collection.

Keep in mind that SM strength varies wildly depending on who's writing them, and often clash with the design studios given comparisons which generally stick to 10/12-1.

Can you give me quotes and sources on that? Looking through my Second Edition Codex Ultramarines, my Third Edition Marine Codex, my Fourth Edition Marine Codex and my Fifth Editon Marine Codex I can't find anything that says that.

Don't have the books on me, but right off the top of my head I there's the deal about "Give me 100 Space Marines, or 1000 other troops!" and in the 5E codex (can't remember which unit entry) there's a blurb about SM's being worth about a dozen guardsmen.

Then there's the BL sillyness where they can be outnumbered thousands or millions to one and it's like a cakewalk.

Vaktathi wrote:]Don't have the books on me, but right off the top of my head I there's the deal about "Give me 100 Space Marines, or 1000 other troops!"

I am familar with the quote, but I can't seem to find it in the Codex.

Of course such quote is wonderfully vague on the defintion of the thousand other troops. Do they mean Aspect Warriors? Orks? Necrons? Even Guardsmen have different level of training and prowess.

Vaktathi wrote:]Don't have the books on me, but right off the top of my head I there's the deal about "Give me 100 Space Marines, or 1000 other troops!" and in the 5E codex (can't remember which unit entry) there's a blurb about SM's being worth about a dozen guardsmen.

If I recall correctly the exact quote is

''It is often said that in terms of raw military might, each Space Marine is easily worth a dozen or so Imperial Guardsmen. Under the command of an experianced Captain this value can swell tenfold.''

This says they are easily worth a dozen men in raw terms, implying they would easily be worth more, not that they are only about a dozen at maximum. This is further supported by examples of Astartes taking on enemies many times their own number, such as the 20 Crimson Fists fending off several hundred orks.

Of course said statement is a bit of rather vague hyperbole. I cannot find it in any other Marine Codex.

But in any case one needs not to rely on Black Library for a demonstration of an Astartes chapter military capacities. It is quite consistent that a Marine chapter is able to take on an entire planet’s worth of enemies and triumph. In any case a single isolated quote talking in a vague hyperbolic statement ‘’it is said.’’ , can easily be dismissed as simply a rough estimate and certainly nothing consistent with the studio’s policy.

Vaktathi wrote:
Then there's the BL sillyness where they can be outnumbered thousands or millions to one and it's like a cakewalk.

It is certainly not silly if an Astartes is established to be many times past the capacity of a normal human and that only grows with force multiplication. Such a depiction is quite consistant with their Codex depictions.

Gree wrote:

I am familar with the quote, but I can't seem to find it in the Codex.

I don't believe it's in the 5E book.

Of course such quote is wonderfully vague on the defintion of the thousand other troops. Do they mean Aspect Warriors? Orks? Necrons? Even Guardsmen have different level of training and prowess.

given that it's a quote from Rogal dorn, we can probably be assured he means human troops, guardsmen equivalents of some level, and would seem to take into account force multipliers already given the context.

This says they are easily worth a dozen men in raw terms, implying they would easily be worth more, not that they are only about a dozen at maximum.

Right, but it does put a general binder in there that makes some of the more derpy fluff where you have marine engaging hundreds, thousands, or millions times their own numbers rather exaggerated to say the least, sillyness like the Dark Apostle books with 5 or 6 thousand CSM's apparently is a foregone conclusion that they will conquer a heavily defended world held by hundreds of millions of veteran guardsmen with extensive anti-orbital defense systems.

When you're getting into force multipliers for commander ability, that can apply to any force. Experienced IG commanders can turn a regiment of 10,000 to be a force much stronger, an Autarch can take a handful of aspect warriors and turn it into a force that can take down many times their number.

This is further supported by examples of Astartes taking on enemies many times their own number, such as the 20 Crimson Fists fending off several hundred orks.

20 crimson fists holding off a few hundred orks for a relatively short period of time is one thing, history is replete with such examples and every force in 40k has similar stories.

It's when you get stuff like the in Brotherhood of the Snake where a mere tac squad doesn't merely hold off but actually slays thousands of Dark Eldar warriors that it gets ridiculous, or where an entire hive cities defenses, likely replete with all sorts of very heavy artillery are apparently so weak that the introduction of a handful of Thunderfire cannons on a structure that's thousands of cubic kilometers in size with millions of inhabitants and thousands upon thousands of soldiers apparently are more successful in holding back ork attacks than the rest of the hive's defenses.

While in Gaunts Ghosts and Storm of Iron, marines die relatively easily, taking significant casualties against substantially smaller ratios of foes.

But in any case one needs not to rely on Black Library for a demonstration of an Astartes chapter military capacities. It is quite consistent that a Marine chapter is able to take on an entire planet’s worth of enemies and triumph. In any case a single isolated quote talking in a vague hyperbolic statement ‘’it is said.’’ , can easily be dismissed as simply a rough estimate and certainly nothing consistent with the studio’s policy.

However what we do have is a couple quotes that actually establish some sort of ratios, and then a bunch of stories that basically amount to "we pick some sort of foe/target at random and no matter what the marines will just walk through it".

Vaktathi wrote:
It is certainly not silly if an Astartes is established to be many times past the capacity of a normal human and that only grows with force multiplication. Such a depiction is quite consistant with their Codex depictions.

It's silly because it never takes into account force multipliers on the opposing side (e.g. heavy long range artillery, air support/superiority, etc)

then there is of course the issue that, in many of these battles, there's just no way there's enough marines to physically cover enough physical territory to be able to engage their foes or even maintain contact. It would probably take marines a week or more simply to reach all the critical areas of a hive city without active resistance. Being fought at close quarters at every turn, collapsing hallways and the like, it wouldn't be difficult at all to isolate them or make it into a generational conflict just to get part way across the hive. Against an entire planet, how on earth are a mere 1,000 troops going to be able to engage an entire worlds military forces or even all of their command centers? There's just not enough of them to reach everything even assuming they're capable of rather ridiculous feats like wading through thousands of foes.

T5 and S5, because they are at least 12 feet tall.

Movie marines stats

Well, given the correct position and the right amount of tactical stupidity on the other side, I think 20 space marines, sternguard primarily, may hold of a hundred or more orks, and also, the only time space marines seem to beat things many times there number, it seems to me it is because they pick them apart and kill them piece by piece..

Eilif wrote:

slim116 wrote:Hahaha I love the movie marines, those rules does fluff marines some justice.
@Sparks_Havelock
What is this Inquistor skirmish game you speak off, sounds cool.

Inquisitor may sound cool, but if you want a good 40k Skirmish game, I'd recommend one of the fan-created Necromunda-based skirmish sets commonly referred to as "Inquisimunda". Here's a very well-developed example.
http://empireofghosts.blogspot.com/p/inquisimunda-resources.html

For a faster playing streamlined Skirmish, I recommend "In The Emperor's Name". I really enjoyed these rules when I tried them.
http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/

Inquisitor has it's fans, but it's really more of a role playing game. I read through the rules and it felt virtually unplayable. Of course if you like a ruleset with a level of detail that makes battletech seem streamlined, then it may be just your thing. Either way, it's at least worth a look since you can read it for free from GW here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480007a&categoryId=1100009§ion=&aId=4900004

im2randomghgh wrote:BS4 WS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 ld8 Sv3+

How about these?

Whoever thinking it should be higher, think: 1S is the difference between a seasoned guardsman who has seen all the battlefields in every condition and had dozens/hundreds of career kills and a gretchin. S5 is the strength of a massive broadside battlesuit, bigger even than terminator armour, carry firepower to destroy just about anything in it's path.

Those stats are ideal for a balanced game, but not at all representative of fluff. The issue with fluff is that when Marines show up as the protagonists in ficiton, , they are so superhuman that unless they're fighting other marines they nearly always win, and by a large margin. Statting them by fluff would make for a very one-sided game against marines that would never win, or a very boring army collecting experience as a marine player might only need a few minis in their collection.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually advocating Fluff-based stats for regular gaming. Even the "Movie Marines" don't appeal to me as anything other than a one-off novelty. Still, that doesn't negate the fact that in-game stats don't reflect Fluff very well.

Canon marines are worth 10 guardsmen each. Marine BL are a bit higher, non-marine BL marines are pretty weak, and in game is probably the closest of the three to canon marines. And higher stats wouldn't represent the marines well, since they overcome each opponent individually and then move on to the next, rather than just charging like an MC. You only need to be slightly superior to each individual opponent to rack up the kills.

And the strength stat of 4 is much closer to the fluff marines than 5 is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:T5 and S5, because they are at least 12 feet tall.

Troll? They are 7 feet tall, MAYBE 8 by some sources.

12 would be a liberal estimate even for a primarch.

Vaktathi wrote:
I don't believe it's in the 5E book.

Or any other of the Codices.

Vaktathi wrote:
given that it's a quote from Rogal dorn, we can probably be assured he means human troops, guardsmen equivalents of some level, and would seem to take into account force multipliers already given the context.

No we cannot do that given the Context. Even Guard equivalents differ wildly in training and equipment.

Vaktathi wrote:
Right, but it does put a general binder in there that makes some of the more derpy fluff where you have marine engaging hundreds, thousands, or millions times their own numbers rather exaggerated to say the least, sillyness like the Dark Apostle books with 5 or 6 thousand CSM's apparently is a foregone conclusion that they will conquer a heavily defended world held by hundreds of millions of veteran guardsmen with extensive anti-orbital defense systems.

Hardly, you take a quote that is rather vague and apply it literally. They are said to easily be equal to a dozen Guardsmen but the underlying implication of said statement is that they are worth so much more. This also lies in neatly with other studio fluff of them engaging many times their own number.

And I’m not sure what is so silly about the Dark Apostle books. In the first 3,000 Word Bearers are enough to tear apart 200,000 PDF, which is perfectly consistent with the Studio material of them taking out entire worlds, and in the last it’s noted that the Boros system is heavily infested with daemons and daemonic sorcery with many of the locals going over to Chaos, but the Word Bearers still losing said war of attrition.

Vaktathi wrote:
When you're getting into force multipliers for commander ability, that can apply to any force. Experienced IG commanders can turn a regiment of 10,000 to be a force much stronger, an Autarch can take a handful of aspect warriors and turn it into a force that can take down many times their number.

Can you go provide me a statement in the Guard or Eldar codices that say that?

Vaktathi wrote:
20 crimson fists holding off a few hundred orks for a relatively short period of time is one thing, history is replete with such examples and every force in 40k has similar stories.

It’s hardly a few hundred orks. The Fists are describing as slaying tenscore and leaving twice the number wounded with the help of an unknown number of Eldar rangers providing a support role. So at the bare minimum it was 600 orks that were casualties with the implication of many more. (The rest of the ork horde is implied to escape)

Vaktathi wrote:

It's when you get stuff like the in Brotherhood of the Snake where a mere tac squad doesn't merely hold off but actually slays thousands of Dark Eldar warriors that it gets ridiculous,

Not at all. The tactical squad was holding a confined area with the Eldar rushing to get out of the city that they had rigged with bombs. It would be essentially like Thermopylae and is perfectly possible that Astartes could do that.

Vaktathi wrote:
It's when you get stuff like the in Brotherhood of the Snake where a mere tac squad doesn't merely hold off but actually slays thousands of Dark Eldar warriors that it gets ridiculous, or where an entire hive cities defenses, likely replete with all sorts of very heavy artillery are apparently so weak that the introduction of a handful of Thunderfire cannons on a structure that's thousands of cubic kilometers in size with millions of inhabitants and thousands upon thousands of soldiers apparently are more successful in holding back ork attacks than the rest of the hive's defenses.

What are you talking about? The account of the Black Reach battle? It simply says that the Thunderfire cannons strengthened the city defenses (Which is accurate) Nowhere at all doe sit imply the current hive defenses were useless in comparison.

Vaktathi wrote:
While in Gaunts Ghosts and Storm of Iron, marines die relatively easily, taking significant casualties against substantially smaller ratios of foes.

I’m not sure what you are talking about. In Traitor General we have the Ghosts explicitly note that what they did was very unusual and that they got very lucky. In Salvation’s Reach three Astartes are considered sufficient support for an entire Guard regiment. Three Astartes then slay over two hundred Traitor Guard and Alien mercenaries in a single passage and are implied to be able to kill hundreds more at the least.

In Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors hardly die en masse to Guard (it’s rather more the other way around). The most Iron Warrior casualties as I recall, come from an anti-ship missile launched at the camp by sheer dumb luck.

Vaktathi wrote:
However what we do have is a couple quotes that actually establish some sort of ratios, and then a bunch of stories that basically amount to "we pick some sort of foe/target at random and no matter what the marines will just walk through it".

No you don’t really. You have a pair of quotes that give us a very rough idea of ratios that can be interpreted in any number of ways and then you have many more examples that are also studio fluff giving us examples of what the Marines can do. Unless you are trying to claim that those two quotes are more valid than the rest of the studio fluff because.......you say so?

I’m sorry, a pair of vague quotes is not a consistent policy by the studio, especially when we have more quotes and examples of Marines being able to take on entire worlds for example.

Vaktathi wrote:
It's silly because it never takes into account force multipliers on the opposing side (e.g. heavy long range artillery, air support/superiority, etc)

That is an assumption of course. Can you give me proof and quotes of that?

Vaktathi wrote:
then there is of course the issue that, in many of these battles, there's just no way there's enough marines to physically cover enough physical territory to be able to engage their foes or even maintain contact.

Why would there not? The role of the Marines is not to conquer and hold, like in today’s Iraq of Afghanistan, but just to break the world and move on. There is nothing stopping them from taking out the strategically vital points of an enemy’s defenses and leaving the guard to mop up.

Vaktathi wrote:
Being fought at close quarters at every turn, collapsing hallways and the like, it wouldn't be difficult at all to isolate them or make it into a generational conflict just to get part way across the hive.

Can you give me examples of that occurring anywhere in studio fluff or are you making another erroneous claim? Of course why do the Marines need to fight everybody in the hive when they can just take out the leaders, the shields or the food supplies or overload the hive’s plasma generators?

Vaktathi wrote:
Against an entire planet, how on earth are a mere 1,000 troops going to be able to engage an entire worlds military forces or even all of their command centers? There's just not enough of them to reach everything even assuming they're capable of rather ridiculous feats like wading through thousands of foes.

Why would they need to reach everything? Only the strategically vital areas are needed to be taken and only the important leaders and centers of key resistance need to be taken out. Let the guard mop up the headless body. Drop in, take out the command centers and move on. A thousand walking tanks armed with minature grenade launchers can certainly do that.

We have an example in the 3rd Edition Marine book (Studio fluff) of 300 White Panthers taking out an entire world’s PDF piecemeal before overrunning the governor’s palace. In Black Reach, a single company was sufficient to liberate a world from an ork Waaagggh. (Another bit of studio fluff, although it was adapted into a Black Library novel.) In the same Codex three companies are sufficient to take out Waaaaggh Gutshredda by themselves.

In the rulebook, it’s stated a mere fifty Astartes can end a rebellion of hundreds while an entire chapter can decide the fate of a sub-sector. In the 5th edition Marine book, yet another studio source, a chapter is sufficient to liberate or destroy entire star systems.

This was all just from a casual search by the way.

The studio materials is quite clear and quite consistent on what Astartes can do. Perhaps if you don’t like it then maybe 40k is not the setting for you.