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nosferatu1001 wrote:There is only one "start" of the movement phase; if you place it in coherency with a model that wasnt there at the start you have now introduced a sequence in time. Ghaz is still correct on this. No matter how you spin it, NO chaining of scarabs.

There are many actions that take place at start of the Movement phase. Doing one of these actions does not exclude doing the others. Otherwise, a Necron player could hold off Reserve rolls by simply creating Scarabs.....

So, no. Ghaz hasn't shown Scarabs aren't creates sequentially. And, I've shown, even is they weren't, the conga line is still a valid method of placing the newly created Scarabs.

Even though the scarabs are created with separate rolls I can 100% bet the FAQ will state the following.

newly created scarabs must be placed in coherency with scarabs that formed the original unit at the start of the phase.


For the same reason you cannot deepstrike off icons/homers of models that were placed in the same round. Or deepstrike and place a webway portal and have models arriving from deepstrike come out of the portal in the same round. Even though you are doing the actions separate as a human, they are happening all at the same time during that phase.

*if you use mind shackle scarabs on a lone character or monster can you make it attack itself.

Yes. The model attacks "his own unit", as would resultingly attack himself.

Using mind shackle scarabs on an IC attached to a unit would result in the IC unable to attack the unit and only themselves as ICs are separate units if the model attacks its own unit.

*Abyssal Staff causes wounds based on the targets leadership rather than toughness but is strength 8. Will it cause instant death to a toughness 4 model whose leadership is not also 4?

No - you are comparing Strength x Leadership. Toughness is not in the equation, so Instand Death based on toughness does not come into play.

instant death is counted against a models LD when LD is used instead of strength for every other weapon in the game that uses LD instead of strength, this will be the same.

The IC or MC attacks itself when scarabed? Wouldn't it make more sense that it doesn't attack at all?
That's how I've been playing it.

For scarabs via a spyder, and warriors via a ghost ark, my thoughts are that you are not allowed under any means to measure coherency (or measure any distance, like 12 inches away from that enemy tank) when placing them. Instead, place the model anywhere on the table you like, THEN you can move the unit as normal. If the unit is on opposite ends of the table, thats your fault and now you will need to spend many turns moving into coherency.

Adding models to a unit does not count as moving them, the added models still get to move, and the spider/ghost ark give ZERO restriction on where they get placed, only what unit they get placed into. That my take on a RAW answer in any event.

I believe RAI on this is that the new models also need to be within 6 inches of the creating model, like how tervigons work. Needs a FAQ, but remember premeasuring your coherency distance BEFORE you move is a no-no.

Edit: Also I have a question about wraiths:

Unlike c'tan, which ignores the effects of terrain, wraiths instead "automatically pass dangerous terrain tests" and "are never slowed by difficult terrain." If they move through terrain (difficult and / or dangerous) what initiative do they strike at when assaulting as they dont have grenades. While to me it is clear that Wraiths would be init 1 if moving through dangerous terrain (they took the test and autopassed it, but if you test you are init 1) I am uncertain about difficult terrain. Do you still test, but just move your full distance (and strike at init 1) or do you ignore the test like c'tan, despite NOT having the ability to ignore terrain.

I lean toward being init 1 when wraiths are assaulting through terrain, as they dont ignore the tests, and IF you test you are reduced to init 1.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is only one "start" of the movement phase; if you place it in coherency with a model that wasnt there at the start you have now introduced a sequence in time. Ghaz is still correct on this. No matter how you spin it, NO chaining of scarabs.

There are many actions that take place at start of the Movement phase. Doing one of these actions does not exclude doing the others. Otherwise, a Necron player could hold off Reserve rolls by simply creating Scarabs.....

So, no. Ghaz hasn't shown Scarabs aren't creates sequentially. And, I've shown, even is they weren't, the conga line is still a valid method of placing the newly created Scarabs.

Never said it didnt exclude them, and you have shown nothing.

If you place them in a conga line, then you have not placed them on a scarab unit within 6" as those scarabs didnt exist before you placed them, breaking the rule.

You are creating a sequence when none is allowed. You are wrong on this, still

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you place them in a conga line, then you have not placed them on a scarab unit within 6" as those scarabs didnt exist before you placed them, breaking the rule.

You are creating a sequence when none is allowed. You are wrong on this, still

Two things: the models can be physically placed sequentially to create the conga line if that's an issue; if things happen instantaneously then at one moment the conga line doesn't exist and the next the entire line does, in unit coherency with the Scarab unit. Once the Scarabs are created, the move and act as normal, per the rules, so the newly created Scarabs are part of the Scarab unit.

The beacon rule specifically states the beacon must be on the table at the start of the turn. The Scarab Hive rule has no such verbiage. Further, the RP special rule specifically forbids the creation of the conga line. Again, this verbiage is not in the Scarab Hive rule.

More questions:

-If an IC or MC is infected by the Mindshackle scarabs, does he attack himself or not at all?

-Can you use the monolith's door to teleport units the turn it DSes?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:More questions:

-If an IC or MC is infected by the Mindshackle scarabs, does he attack himself or not at all?

-Can you use the monolith's door to teleport units the turn it DSes?

THIS! I mindshackled a dread knight the other day, wasnt sure what happened, so we played it as he had nobody to attack. Would be nice for it to commit suicide!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:-Can you use the monolith's door to teleport units the turn it DSes?

No.

40k Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

Janthkin wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:-Can you use the monolith's door to teleport units the turn it DSes?

No.

40k Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

That's a bummer, but pretty explicit.

A question I haven't seen posted yet:

The sweep attacks on the command barge are not shooting attacks, and the rule never mentions not being able to hit units in CC.

Can you sweep attack a unit locked in CC?

The ability to possibly snipe a Nob with a Klaw right out of an ugly CC would be really powerful/useful.

Yes, you CAN sweep attack a combat. The only requirement is that it is a unit you have passed over. no requirement to be unengaged as well.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Two things: the models can be physically placed sequentially to create the conga line if that's an issue; if things happen instantaneously then at one moment the conga line doesn't exist and the next the entire line does, in unit coherency with the Scarab unit.

Except the ones at the end of the line are NOT in coherency with the Scarab unit that was there at the start of the turn.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Once the Scarabs are created, the move and act as normal, per the rules, so the newly created Scarabs are part of the Scarab unit.

Entirely irrelevant, as you have created a sequence out of something that has to happen simultaneously. "Start of turn" has one instance, and thats it - prove it doesnt. Some rules form your end would be useful, as you are making the extraordinary claim that something that happens at the start of the turn can happen AFTEr something else that has happened.

Its the same as rolling HB separate from Bolters in a mixed weapon unit - it doesnt alter that it happens simultaneously. Same here. ALL scarabs are created at the same time, so you cannot place them in coherency with models that arent currently there.

Janthkin wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:-Can you use the monolith's door to teleport units the turn it DSes?

No.

40k Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

But the Door isn't used at the start of the turn, it is used at the start of the movement phase.

Can a Tachyon Arrow benefit from a TL marker caused by a Triarch Stalker?

Start of turn and movement phase are the same thing

Of course you can TL a Tachyon Arrow.

Can a res orb affect Ever-Living? I don't have my book yet but hearing from others some are saying Ever-Living is an entirely different roll from resurrection protocols. If so then damn that's kind of pointless to put on our HQ's.

Kurgash wrote:Can a res orb affect Ever-Living? I don't have my book yet but hearing from others some are saying Ever-Living is an entirely different roll from resurrection protocols. If so then damn that's kind of pointless to put on our HQ's.

Yes. Ever-living is basically the same as RP, but with slightly different effects.

Yes, because RP defines the roll Ever LIving units make. Change RP you change EL by definition.

Good. Now to smack said people upside the head with a rolled up newspaper.

This could be tied into the "two Lords/Crypteks from two Royal Courts in the same unit" question, but it also could tie into the Deathmark's Ethereal Interception ability. It could also add a drop more of confusion into an already confusing amalgamation of FAQ-able questions... anyways, here's the setup.

Squad consisting of:
5x Deathmarks = 95pts
1x Cryptek Harb-Despair w/ Abyss Staff, Nightshroud & VoD = 70pts
1x Lord w/ HP Sword, Res Orb & Phase Shifter = 110pts

Total = 275pts

Herein lies the confusion - VoD allows the Cryptek and his unit to DS immediately(pg84). The Deathmark's EI ability allows the unit to enter play through DS immediately after an enemy unit DSes onto the field, usually in enemy's turn(pg36).

Going by those rules, does the VoD extend DS rules to the entire unit, thereby wrapping himself and the Lord into being able to use the EI along with the unit?

If this combination were at all possible, and the rules played out in this way, I believe that would be a very well spent 275 pts. Maybe I'm insane and confused, but RAW makes this seem possible. RAI...? Opinions?

Here are a couple more:

- Can Symbiotic Repair be used to preserve Quantum Shielding? IE, if My opponent shoots my Command Barge, scores a Penetrating hit and knocks my gun off, and I use Symbiotic Repair to take a wound instead of suffering the result, does the vehicle still lose Quantum Shielding? The vehicle has no longer suffered a result and the Overlord inside has instead suffered a wound.....

- The Staff of the Destroyer and the Death Ray both cause a number of hits "equal to the number of models in the unit under the line". Does this mean they take a number of hits equal to the number of models actually touched by the line, or a number of hits equal to the total number of models in the unit? It seems to be worded in a slightly ambiguous manner, but the second interpretation is vastly more powerful than the first. (I'm assuming the first interpretation is correct but I can see it being debated)

- For the above weapons, can you roll the distance before selecting the starting point for the line, or do you have to pick the starting point, then roll, then draw the line? Additionally, are you allowed to pre-measure anywhere within 12" of the vehicle for the starting point or do you have to pick a point, measure to it and auto-miss if it lies outside of 12" much like weapons that use blast markers?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you CAN sweep attack a combat. The only requirement is that it is a unit you have passed over. no requirement to be unengaged as well.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Two things: the models can be physically placed sequentially to create the conga line if that's an issue; if things happen instantaneously then at one moment the conga line doesn't exist and the next the entire line does, in unit coherency with the Scarab unit.

Except the ones at the end of the line are NOT in coherency with the Scarab unit that was there at the start of the turn.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Once the Scarabs are created, the move and act as normal, per the rules, so the newly created Scarabs are part of the Scarab unit.

Entirely irrelevant, as you have created a sequence out of something that has to happen simultaneously. "Start of turn" has one instance, and thats it - prove it doesnt. Some rules form your end would be useful, as you are making the extraordinary claim that something that happens at the start of the turn can happen AFTEr something else that has happened.

Its the same as rolling HB separate from Bolters in a mixed weapon unit - it doesnt alter that it happens simultaneously. Same here. ALL scarabs are created at the same time, so you cannot place them in coherency with models that arent currently there.

I'm tired of making redundant comments: my reply is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/408474.page#3545994

Gorandius wrote:This could be tied into the "two Lords/Crypteks from two Royal Courts in the same unit" question, but it also could tie into the Deathmark's Ethereal Interception ability. It could also add a drop more of confusion into an already confusing amalgamation of FAQ-able questions... anyways, here's the setup.

Squad consisting of:
5x Deathmarks = 95pts
1x Cryptek Harb-Despair w/ Abyss Staff, Nightshroud & VoD = 70pts
1x Lord w/ HP Sword, Res Orb & Phase Shifter = 110pts

Total = 275pts

Herein lies the confusion - VoD allows the Cryptek and his unit to DS immediately(pg84). The Deathmark's EI ability allows the unit to enter play through DS immediately after an enemy unit DSes onto the field, usually in enemy's turn(pg36).

Going by those rules, does the VoD extend DS rules to the entire unit, thereby wrapping himself and the Lord into being able to use the EI along with the unit?

If this combination were at all possible, and the rules played out in this way, I believe that would be a very well spent 275 pts. Maybe I'm insane and confused, but RAW makes this seem possible. RAI...? Opinions?

RAW does seem to make it possible, but I find it difficult to imagine it's intended. I'd expect this to be FAQ'd our of existence.

Aldarionn wrote:Here are a couple more:

- Can Symbiotic Repair be used to preserve Quantum Shielding? IE, if My opponent shoots my Command Barge, scores a Penetrating hit and knocks my gun off, and I use Symbiotic Repair to take a wound instead of suffering the result, does the vehicle still lose Quantum Shielding? The vehicle has no longer suffered a result and the Overlord inside has instead suffered a wound.....

As soon as you suffer the penetrating hit, you lose the Quantum Shielding. As I understand it, it's a repair which occurs after the damage is done, rather than acting to ignore it.

- The Staff of the Destroyer and the Death Ray both cause a number of hits "equal to the number of models in the unit under the line". Does this mean they take a number of hits equal to the number of models actually touched by the line, or a number of hits equal to the total number of models in the unit? It seems to be worded in a slightly ambiguous manner, but the second interpretation is vastly more powerful than the first. (I'm assuming the first interpretation is correct but I can see it being debated)

It could be debated, because the wording is confusing, but I would imagine it being the former rather than the latter.

- For the above weapons, can you roll the distance before selecting the starting point for the line, or do you have to pick the starting point, then roll, then draw the line? Additionally, are you allowed to pre-measure anywhere within 12" of the vehicle for the starting point or do you have to pick a point, measure to it and auto-miss if it lies outside of 12" much like weapons that use blast markers?

You have to pick the point before rolling the dice, and I would imagine placing it outside of the 12" would negate the attack since pre-measurements for weapons are illegal according to the rules unless stated otherwise. However, I can see it being argued otherwise, even though I think it's pretty clear.

Gorandius wrote:
Herein lies the confusion - VoD allows the Cryptek and his unit to DS immediately(pg84). The Deathmark's EI ability allows the unit to enter play through DS immediately after an enemy unit DSes onto the field, usually in enemy's turn(pg36).

Going by those rules, does the VoD extend DS rules to the entire unit, thereby wrapping himself and the Lord into being able to use the EI along with the unit?

No, Veil of Darkness can only be used instead of moving normally (wargear description).

Reread Voltaic Stave.
Do you roll to hit, then roll to see if it 'haywires' the target, and -then- also roll to see if it glances or penetrates the old-fashioned way?

Any thoughts on wraiths? Are they init 1 when charging into combat through cover, as they do not 'ignore terrain' like c'tan, and the wraiths have no grenades?

Aldarionn wrote:Here are a couple more:

- Can Symbiotic Repair be used to preserve Quantum Shielding? IE, if My opponent shoots my Command Barge, scores a Penetrating hit and knocks my gun off, and I use Symbiotic Repair to take a wound instead of suffering the result, does the vehicle still lose Quantum Shielding? The vehicle has no longer suffered a result and the Overlord inside has instead suffered a wound.....

No, taking the wound repairs the result, it does NOT remove the Penetrating Hit.

Aldarionn wrote:
- The Staff of the Destroyer and the Death Ray both cause a number of hits "equal to the number of models in the unit under the line". Does this mean they take a number of hits equal to the number of models actually touched by the line, or a number of hits equal to the total number of models in the unit? It seems to be worded in a slightly ambiguous manner, but the second interpretation is vastly more powerful than the first. (I'm assuming the first interpretation is correct but I can see it being debated)

Former. It uses the UNIT designation to separate out that each unit only takes hits equal to the members of THEIR unit that were under the line.

Aldarionn wrote:- For the above weapons, can you roll the distance before selecting the starting point for the line, or do you have to pick the starting point, then roll, then draw the line? Additionally, are you allowed to pre-measure anywhere within 12" of the vehicle for the starting point or do you have to pick a point, measure to it and auto-miss if it lies outside of 12" much like weapons that use blast markers?

You CAN pick the point after measuring, as you are required to pick a point WITHIN the weapons range. As soon as you can only do something within a distance you need to measure. Cf to less daemons arriving within 6" of an icon.

There is no ambiguity in the sequence, reread. You pick a point THEN roll 3D6 THEN pick another point within that 3D6" line.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Reread Voltaic Stave.
Do you roll to hit, then roll to see if it 'haywires' the target, and -then- also roll to see if it glances or penetrates the old-fashioned way?

Yes, you do both as it has a strength

DevianID wrote:Any thoughts on wraiths? Are they init 1 when charging into combat through cover, as they do not 'ignore terrain' like c'tan, and the wraiths have no grenades?

They are "never slowed by difficult terrain" meaning they do not take the test - if you dont take the test you arent init1. Cf to dangerous terrain checks, which they pass automatically.

Do Praetorians have 1 attack or 2? It states 1 in the codex and 2 on GW's website, I would usually just go with the codex but it's a terminator cost model. Misprint maybe? Since the website is more recent?

COdex wins, unsurprisingly.

Codex wins, however it would not be entirely outside the realm of possibility that they misprinted the codex and will change it in the errata. Until that happens though the rules in the codex supersede the ones on the website.

DevianID wrote:For scarabs via a spyder, and warriors via a ghost ark, my thoughts are that you are not allowed under any means to measure coherency (or measure any distance, like 12 inches away from that enemy tank) when placing them. Instead, place the model anywhere on the table you like, THEN you can move the unit as normal. If the unit is on opposite ends of the table, thats your fault and now you will need to spend many turns moving into coherency.

Adding models to a unit does not count as moving them, the added models still get to move, and the spider/ghost ark give ZERO restriction on where they get placed, only what unit they get placed into. That my take on a RAW answer in any event.

I believe RAI on this is that the new models also need to be within 6 inches of the creating model, like how tervigons work. Needs a FAQ, but remember premeasuring your coherency distance BEFORE you move is a no-no.

Edit: Also I have a question about wraiths:

Unlike c'tan, which ignores the effects of terrain, wraiths instead "automatically pass dangerous terrain tests" and "are never slowed by difficult terrain." If they move through terrain (difficult and / or dangerous) what initiative do they strike at when assaulting as they dont have grenades. While to me it is clear that Wraiths would be init 1 if moving through dangerous terrain (they took the test and autopassed it, but if you test you are init 1) I am uncertain about difficult terrain. Do you still test, but just move your full distance (and strike at init 1) or do you ignore the test like c'tan, despite NOT having the ability to ignore terrain.

I lean toward being init 1 when wraiths are assaulting through terrain, as they dont ignore the tests, and IF you test you are reduced to init 1.

No you would strike at intiative. You are not slowed by terrain. That isn't the same as saying you always count as rolling a 6 for the movement through difficult terrain. Since you are not slowed you go at initiative in the same way Kroot would.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Reread Voltaic Stave.
Do you roll to hit, then roll to see if it 'haywires' the target, and -then- also roll to see if it glances or penetrates the old-fashioned way?

Since this is on of the baltant DE rip offs I will use that as a baseline. You roll to see if you pen or glance with the shot itself so S 5 + d6. Then after resolving that resolve the haywire grenade.