Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

IG. not sure if we will have to change much, yet.
Still wrap your vehicles. still bring the templates.
still massed chimera, or massed blob CC/FRF,SRF.

Eldar!

So, against normal Vehiclespam we employ... S6spam plus dragons for the tougher nut.

Yet I wonder: How will we engage AV13 on a broader front?
Falcons with... A Lance? Really, are we forced down _that_ road?

More units to engage high-AV vehicles? (adding seercouncils again, probably in a serpent?)


On the plus side: Necrons will struggle in opening up our skimmers, the vast majority of their firepower clocks in at 24" and strength 5 or 6...

As an Ork player verus Necrons, I think all I have to do get there....then I win.
I typically use as many battlewagons as I can reasonably fit in a list (4 at 2000, 5 at 2500)
The thing that worries me is if scarabs get a turn 1 assault on my battle wagons. Actually in general Scarabs are the thing that worry me the most.

Burna boyz, my friend

Turn 1 assualt would be nasty, tre, but a burnawagon would be a nice riposte

eldar i think is business as usual. i dont really as or against eldar, but heres some thoughts:

farseer w/ doom and guide can make crons cry. dire avengers should work nice as a short range "hop out of serpent and bladestorm w/guide and doomed target" trick. vipers with scatter/shuriken cannon should also be able to throw out a nice amount of str 6 shots. armor 13 i think means lance time, either that or fire prisims. pulse laser i suppose in a pinch but if your shooting str 8 guns, might as well have the lance rule to reduce armor facing on the 'lith etc.

banshees should do bad things to necron infantry, and firedragons help in baking tanks or forcing invuns on tougher infantry units. load up 6 in a falcon, and it makes a nice surprise.

otherwise i think its business as usual.... use speed and psyker tricks to mess them up.

imperial gaurd on the other hand, if you can protect your tanks from scarab rush, those battle cannons and so on will make VERY short work of anything necron. basilisks can also just punish whatever they can see. hev weapons in the form of autocannon/lazcannon and maybe even a few missiles and hev bolters will also work wonders. perhaps a few plasma or melta vets in a valk to make things a little tougher on them.

DarthSpader wrote:Remember is assault your hitting rear armor, so that negates the front side quantum shields. Fast moving Orc klaws such as via bike, or boarding plank could do the trick. Wrecking balls might also find a use here. A possible combo for trucks, although pricey, is fit them with rpj, plank, wrecking ball, grabby klaw, and riggers. Drive by at top speed, use the plank to PK the thing in movement phase. If its still up, apply the wrecking ball and klaw. Hopefully you take it out, or at least keep it in place so next turn your boys auto hit.

But in mho I think nob bikers are the best choice for anti while. With a18" charge range and turbo boost you should get at turn 2 charge. A few power klaws and big choppas will mess up just about anything. And if you attach a warboss and painboy, diversify the unit you have a pretty reliable deathstar unit that can deal with most anything the crons can field

Ah, I had missed that detail - a large weight of worries has been removed!

Thanks

DarthSpader wrote:[...] i dont really as or against eldar, but heres some thoughts:

farseer w/ doom and guide can make crons cry. dire avengers should work nice as a short range "hop out of serpent and bladestorm w/guide and doomed target" trick. vipers with scatter/shuriken cannon should also be able to throw out a nice amount of str 6 shots. armor 13 i think means lance time, either that or fire prisims. pulse laser i suppose in a pinch but if your shooting str 8 guns, might as well have the lance rule to reduce armor facing on the 'lith etc.

banshees should do bad things to necron infantry, and firedragons help in baking tanks or forcing invuns on tougher infantry units. load up 6 in a falcon, and it makes a nice surprise.

Dude, do you spent most of your time playing 15year olds in some LGS? Oo
Significant part bolded by me...
edit: If you want me to explain all the things wrong with your post, say so and I will take the time necessary.

Cant tell if trolling or serious.......



What's wrong with the fact I don't play eldar or against themr? At least not often. I play in a group of friends plus a regional club. Most players bring ork,chaos,tau,IG or meq. Eldar just don't show up. I even tried them once a long time ago ut didn't like the army,, so im just giving the idea some quick thought. Hence the disclaimer. If you have "better" ideas please share them.

DarknessEternal wrote:Don't bunch up your vehicles.

Keep the vehicles moving.

Once you start attacking a unit, keep attacking it until it is dead.

I like this advice, its fact, and straight to the point.

Templars are still business as usual; lascannons and tank hunter terminators with CMLs should be able to deal with AV13 good enough and the general assault prowess should be decent at sweeping Necrons. Paying for searchlights seems more important though. PotMS Vindies could potentially be very effective, especially against scarabs, but could also die really fast.

Another general tactic that I'm not sure has been mentioned: shooting to stun still works. Even if Living Metal negates, it does so immediately, meaning you know whether or not you need to bother shooting something again.

DarthSpader wrote:Cant tell if trolling or serious.......



What's wrong with the fact I don't play eldar or against themr? At least not often. I play in a group of friends plus a regional club. Most players bring ork,chaos,tau,IG or meq. Eldar just don't show up. I even tried them once a long time ago ut didn't like the army,, so im just giving the idea some quick thought. Hence the disclaimer. If you have "better" ideas please share them.

If you don't play the Army, it's probably best not to give advice about it.

Monoscythe Missiles. You will make scarab spam cry, young Archon. Smell the pain.

MMMMMm Pain, in it's own foil..

DE have a lot of fun things to aggrevate Scarabspam

Sasori wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Cant tell if trolling or serious.......



What's wrong with the fact I don't play eldar or against themr? At least not often. I play in a group of friends plus a regional club. Most players bring ork,chaos,tau,IG or meq. Eldar just don't show up. I even tried them once a long time ago ut didn't like the army,, so im just giving the idea some quick thought. Hence the disclaimer. If you have "better" ideas please share them.

If you don't play the Army, it's probably best not to give advice about it.

This is the truth.


DarthSpader, your advice was horrible and faulty to no end.

probally. eldar are not my thing. however the point of the thread and my eldar post was to get ideas out there.

now lets move on, and perhaps point out WHY that dosent work, and what would?

DarthSpader wrote:eldar i think is business as usual. i dont really as or against eldar, but heres some thoughts:

farseer w/ doom and guide can make crons cry. dire avengers should work nice as a short range "hop out of serpent and bladestorm w/guide and doomed target" trick. vipers with scatter/shuriken cannon should also be able to throw out a nice amount of str 6 shots. armor 13 i think means lance time, either that or fire prisims. pulse laser i suppose in a pinch but if your shooting str 8 guns, might as well have the lance rule to reduce armor facing on the 'lith etc.

banshees should do bad things to necron infantry, and firedragons help in baking tanks or forcing invuns on tougher infantry units. load up 6 in a falcon, and it makes a nice surprise.

otherwise i think its business as usual.... use speed and psyker tricks to mess them up.

imperial gaurd on the other hand, if you can protect your tanks from scarab rush, those battle cannons and so on will make VERY short work of anything necron. basilisks can also just punish whatever they can see. hev weapons in the form of autocannon/lazcannon and maybe even a few missiles and hev bolters will also work wonders. perhaps a few plasma or melta vets in a valk to make things a little tougher on them.

Alright, for why the Eldar tactics you posted wouldn't work.

For one, using most of those powers would require your Farseer, to enter the bubble of death, 24' Necron range.
A lot of the Weapons used by Dire Avengers and the like, are fairly short range. Considering everything except the Gauss Flayer and Tesla will Penetrate most Eldar armor means, that they are getting wiped out, as with other units.
Vypers are pretty terrible.
Fire dragons are pretty standard for any list, so of course they would be there to help take out Cron Tanks. However, they are a fire and die unit.
We don't have an assault transport, so Banshees are pretty bad. Not to mention most Necron Dedicated Assault units are T5, with power weapons, so even with Doom, Banshees are a lost cause.
Prisms are good.

so ...and this is just me asking: but what about a farseer attached to a unit of dire avengers in a wave serp. it moves up, guys hop out, guide/doom +bladestrorm at target? thats alot of shots with rerolls to hit and wound. might be a bad idea doing so into the core of the necron army, but wont it still take out a 10 or 15man squad of warriors etc? combined with wave serpent fire, should be good? or maybe not...just thought it might "work"

as for banshees didnt really think about the str 3 vrs t5 issue. : /

finally, whats wrong with a fast low cost vehicle that can move 6 and unload 12 str 6 shots? or go 12 and fire 6? yea its open topped but low cost and in groups of 3 or even 2 can toss alot of firepower at a target, unless im missing something?

DarthSpader wrote:so ...and this is just me asking: but what about a farseer attached to a unit of dire avengers in a wave serp. it moves up, guys hop out, guide/doom +bladestrorm at target? thats alot of shots with rerolls to hit and wound. might be a bad idea doing so into the core of the necron army, but wont it still take out a 10 or 15man squad of warriors etc? combined with wave serpent fire, should be good? or maybe not...just thought it might "work"

as for banshees didnt really think about the str 3 vrs t5 issue. : /

finally, whats wrong with a fast low cost vehicle that can move 6 and unload 12 str 6 shots? or go 12 and fire 6? yea its open topped but low cost and in groups of 3 or even 2 can toss alot of firepower at a target, unless im missing something?

Yeah, but it's not worth sacrificing a Farseer, to Kill a single Necron squad. If even ONE of them survives, 1/3 will stand back up, and possibly even more if there is an Orb. The Farseer is the Lynchpin for the Eldar army.

Vypers are overcosted for what they do. For a fully Mechdar list, you already spending a ton on Waveserpents and their weapons, most of which can scratch quantum shielding, so you would have to upgrade to EML or BL, it gets costly very quick. Vypers eat up to many points, and are likely to get blasted away very quickly. Not to mention the squadron rules...

good points. i suppose warp spiders might be in the same boat then? ive heard of warp spiders shredding infantry with alot of high str shots. and they have decent armor plus fast moves. not sure how well that would fare though

For Tau:

Lots of Broadside units to deal with AV 13 and higher.

Lots of Firewarriors to soak units with larg ammounts of high strength fire.

Pathfidners with markerlights to improve other units shooting (oh and you can use those markerlight to strip the cover save off a scarab unit and negate the effects of Night Fighting).

Kroot, Gundrones, Piranha and Vespid units to blockade the 'crons outside of 12 inches (ideally out of 24)

Crisis Suits for hitting some of the nastier units. I suspect those in favour of the TL Missile Pod will be vindicated as it's the only Crisis Suit weapon that can keep them out of the Necron 24 inch fire bubble.

Other than the Kroot and some of the Fast Attack units everything in the Tau inventory can be configured to outrange the Necrons, so that's probably the only way for the Tau to fight 'em.

Yeah Tau suits with missiles will be nice.

Do you think we will see more assault cannons from regular SM?


Gogo inferno cannons!

assault cannons will be inside that 24" threat. only way i see to reliably use it, is with terminators in cover, or LRC. even then A14 is not 100% safe from necron shooting.

ive played tau and against them, and the pathfinder trick can be dirty. strip off cover, penalize LD check for pinning etc, its pretty rough. combined with submunition railguns that should make scarabs dissapear.

crisis teams should do ok on the infantry, although must be cautios and use LOS blocking terrain to hop around in.

Would BA just jump on top of them? The bulk of a necron army will be loaded with warriors. Chop them up and you can sweep them. They're only I 2! For elites I would organize some Death co. and sang. guard. Stormravens carrying dreads. Carnage!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthSpader wrote:eldar i think is business as usual. i dont really as or against eldar, but heres some thoughts:

farseer w/ doom and guide can make crons cry. dire avengers should work nice as a short range "hop out of serpent and bladestorm w/guide and doomed target" trick. vipers with scatter/shuriken cannon should also be able to throw out a nice amount of str 6 shots. armor 13 i think means lance time, either that or fire prisims. pulse laser i suppose in a pinch but if your shooting str 8 guns, might as well have the lance rule to reduce armor facing on the 'lith etc.

banshees should do bad things to necron infantry, and firedragons help in baking tanks or forcing invuns on tougher infantry units. load up 6 in a falcon, and it makes a nice surprise.

otherwise i think its business as usual.... use speed and psyker tricks to mess them up.

imperial gaurd on the other hand, if you can protect your tanks from scarab rush, those battle cannons and so on will make VERY short work of anything necron. basilisks can also just punish whatever they can see. hev weapons in the form of autocannon/lazcannon and maybe even a few missiles and hev bolters will also work wonders. perhaps a few plasma or melta vets in a valk to make things a little tougher on them.

The Problem would be that necrons have lots of deep stiking and outflanking units. Your Basilisk will be very hard to use with metal nombies crawling over it!

For all armies:

I've noticed that most new necron lists seem to revolve around either night fighting or making all of your first turn movements both difficult and dangerous. If you play DE or SW, you're already at an advantage in night fighting and you will soon learn that night fighting will hinder more than help against your night vision and acute senses. Regardless, I also noticed that the effects of both of these necron lists are primarily effective during the first turn. For example, writhing worldscape coupled with orikan the diviner will only make your movement dangerous on the first turn. So from what it looks like, your left with two options against a terrain based necron list. You can either try to remain static for the first turn because even if you're in actual terrain, you'll be fine unless you move which longfangs and devastators wont do anyway and keep everything else parked in superior firing lanes. Or, you can opt to go full reserve which is, of course, a bit more risky. Going full reserve against this type of list will be the most effective if you get the first turn so that you only lose one turn of shooting while you're opponents primary threat is automatically wasted since you weren't on the board. Autarchs, tyrants with HC, and other such units that increase reserve rolls will help out here. Now we move onto the night fighting necron lists. For the most part, necron shooting is pretty short range at generally no more that 24". Against night fighting lists, expect more night scythes and doom scythes as your opponent will try to use the darkness to conceal these weaker armored vehicles. You also need to consider Imotekh's (he will be in any competent night fighting list) lightning storm. However, the odds of getting the storm decrease overtime since you need to roll higher than the turn number to get it off (not higher than or equal to, the roll must be higher). So, you can either choose to take your chances and deploy, in which case I'd recommend deploying in small groups of 3-4 units across your deployment zones to help protect against doom scythes while still relying on your other units for support. Or you could again go full reserve, this time, I'd recommend going second though to take away another potential turn of lightning storms and to allow your opponents weak vehicles to get closer.

Next, we move on to target priority and deployment specifics. If fighting a terrain list, target you opponents C'tan first which isn't that hard to down with only a 4+/4++. Once he's down, your terrain restrictions are gone and you should then focus on your opponent's heavy support and scarabs. For scarabs, keep in mind that scarabs, with a good fleet roll and spawning more in front of the squad, get get off a turn one charge. It will therefore be a good Idea to deploy 3"-4" back from you line if you chose to deploy and if you picked reserves, simply roll on away from those bugs. The best way to deal with scarabs is through templates and assaulting them with a unit that relies on an invul save instead of an armor save, units such as: wyches, beast packs, all demons, thousand sons, damned legionnaires, etc. another great counter for scarabs is to hit them with anything S6 or higher as it instant kills them, so: relic blades, assault cannons, missile pods, plasma weapons, psyflemen dreads, etc. would all be great against scarabs. Just keep a cool head and remember that these new necrons aren't that great and you should be able to defeat them. Monolith are now only AV14 with none of those annoying defensive perks so our lances and melta weapons work now. Another new thing, quantum shielding, can be circumvented fairly easily. While some of their vehicles will have +2 armor until you pen the vehicle, melta and lances still work. So if you play DE, you should be fine sine you'll be up against no more than 7-8 AV12 vehicles which is kinda what we're used to.

A note for the necron squads. As you all know, having enemy units comeback to life is annoying. Especially when the necron player gets to make this roll every phase instead of every turn. However, your opponent wont get that roll at all if you manage to down a whole unit. That's right, necrons can not use reanimation protocols if the entire units was killed. So, instead of whittling down most of your opponents squads per turns, focus fire on one or two squads to prevent them from coming back.

that's all i have at the moment. cheers!

Sasori wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:eldar i think is business as usual. i dont really as or against eldar, but heres some thoughts:

farseer w/ doom and guide can make crons cry. dire avengers should work nice as a short range "hop out of serpent and bladestorm w/guide and doomed target" trick. vipers with scatter/shuriken cannon should also be able to throw out a nice amount of str 6 shots. armor 13 i think means lance time, either that or fire prisims. pulse laser i suppose in a pinch but if your shooting str 8 guns, might as well have the lance rule to reduce armor facing on the 'lith etc.

banshees should do bad things to necron infantry, and firedragons help in baking tanks or forcing invuns on tougher infantry units. load up 6 in a falcon, and it makes a nice surprise.

otherwise i think its business as usual.... use speed and psyker tricks to mess them up.

imperial gaurd on the other hand, if you can protect your tanks from scarab rush, those battle cannons and so on will make VERY short work of anything necron. basilisks can also just punish whatever they can see. hev weapons in the form of autocannon/lazcannon and maybe even a few missiles and hev bolters will also work wonders. perhaps a few plasma or melta vets in a valk to make things a little tougher on them.

Alright, for why the Eldar tactics you posted wouldn't work.

For one, using most of those powers would require your Farseer, to enter the bubble of death, 24' Necron range.
A lot of the Weapons used by Dire Avengers and the like, are fairly short range. Considering everything except the Gauss Flayer and Tesla will Penetrate most Eldar armor means, that they are getting wiped out, as with other units.
Vypers are pretty terrible.
Fire dragons are pretty standard for any list, so of course they would be there to help take out Cron Tanks. However, they are a fire and die unit.
We don't have an assault transport, so Banshees are pretty bad. Not to mention most Necron Dedicated Assault units are T5, with power weapons, so even with Doom, Banshees are a lost cause.
Prisms are good.

All very solid advice, and all true (except: If a tournament has a mission pack going very light on killpoints, a vyper or 2 might be worth it to really make Dark Eldar angry - wich is beside this threats point).

You forgot to point out that DarthSpader wanted us to put Firedragons in Falcons. Wich is moronic to say the least, putting a ultra-low-range fire-and-forget-unit into a longrange tank with high surviveability. If you were to move up the falcon at a speed corresponding to the need of a) getting the dragons to target fast and b) getting them there fast enough to not be shot up, both combined with the abundance of melta and AP1 (and the AP1 is the important part, suddenly, half of all possible dicerolls on the Falcon, even with Holos, are crippling!) will make him useless. You'll have wasted points on what a cheap serpent could've done, given up a HS slot (wich are heavily competed for by Warwalkers and, if it is to someones taste, prisms or spinners), and wasted one of your only sources of semi-efficient semi-Long-Range semi-decent Anti-Tank.

Dragons go in a Serpent. That Serpent gets Shurikencannons and Spiritstones to keep him moving. you will not waste points for the underslung gun unless you have them over, and you will not waste points on anything else than Shuricannons for a tank that will be at ~7" to the enemy by turn2 and be lucky to live through the encounter.
´
.

DarthSpader said, that Eldar were to do as usual. That is not true. Up until now Eldar could deal with most Mechspam effectively by spamming s6 on our part. Rhinos? AV11 we can crack, and due to the high-cost-infantry within there won't be so many. Chimeras? AV12 is nice on the front, but we're fast enough to get into your side. Dark Eldar? Oh boy, s6 Spam is happy. For the (mostly) maximum of 3 tougher tanks with a front AV of 13 or even higher as well as the range to stay away and keep you from ever hitting their side we have our Dragons.

.
.

Now, what do Necrons do? They make a s6spam face AV13 on a broader front. s6 spam can't even touch that gak, so we either have to escalate the arms race (wich is ridiculous, considering the pricetag on our single-gak-s8 and our gakky bs) or just suck it up and go for priority targets. However, as most Necron punch imho is delivered by Infantry wich can shoot out of AV13 open topped, we are mostly screwed. Either we buy lances (yuck, 1 shot, 45pts on bs3? No thank you), get out more than the 2 required falcons (and give them an EML?), or we try to expand our expandeable trade-for-a-tank-assets. Jetcouncils fall out of the picture by virtue of being single-wound not-really-gaining-anything-by-wound-allocation, and btw you also want to get more Tanks on the table (as more tanks is more surviveable and will keep you in the game later). So you have the choice, imho, of sucking up that theres 5 vhicles or so (or, in extreme circumstances, like 8) of AV13 of wich you can dream of downing the 3 most important ones (via trading dragons) and then rely on your own surviveability (denying your army), or get seercouncils mounted in Serpents, 2 preferreably, 3 strong each with a farsser (as you have to buy those anyways) as cheap as possible. Voila, 8 more lascannon-equivalents from 2 units, almost as good as your melta dragons (though horribly pricy). And you get as many Falcons as you need.

At any rate you will hurt. Neglect their AV13 vehicle-wall by not buying 2 councils and you will not kill squat while spending the game boosting out of reserve, denying your army, trying to snipe the prime targets and stay alive. This is a boring game, Eldar have been playing it for the last 4 years roughly, but definitely since 5th editions release.
Or you get 2 councils, slim down severely on the troops, and get your 3 falcons loaded up with avengers.

What will this do? Well, you got 3 scoring units. This is not enough for objective games against troops heavy opponents, or armies that can have effective troops. (Wolves, Bloodies, Imps on the effective, Dark Eldar on the cheap side,with Necron Immortals clocking in barely out of effective but still passeable). Also, while you are forced to buy 3 Falcons by virtue of few troops whose surviveability you have to enhance as far as possible (by means of falcon-holos), you'll have 3. In really big games, you'll get 4 or 5.
What will the Falcons do? 3 shots @ s8 and bs3? 1.5 hits, 0.5 rolls on the damagetable? But, as opposed to more recent codici, we cannot a) ignore haken/stunned by whatever chance, b) get enough tanks to not care how many are stunned/shaken, c) get tanks with sufficient punch to be effective in low numbers (lasplas), d) get tanks resilient enough to tough it out (necrons, landraiders, stormravens).

.

.

While allof what the Darth said was wrong in the explanation, one thing stands true: Eldar just keep doing what they do. However, they do none of the things he listed.

We get as many vehicles on the table for as cheap as we can, we try to snipe out the HVTs, and then we sit out the game and hope that enough of us is left to claim a draw or minor victory.

Well put archont. If I ever pick up eldar I'll use those ideas. I think my own misguided suggestions are holdovers from 4th. (when I last really tried them very very briefly)

played 2 games against completely different necron armies at the local gw today, 1850 points with my less-than-average csm army, and smashed them, just get into combat and wipe them out with sweeping advance, none of the army has stubborn or fearless, and even on ld 10, its easier than you think to fail in most combats. and with int 2 with most units, so easy to sweeping advance

Spyrash wrote:played 2 games against completely different necron armies at the local gw today, 1850 points with my less-than-average csm army, and smashed them, just get into combat and wipe them out with sweeping advance, none of the army has stubborn or fearless, and even on ld 10, its easier than you think to fail in most combats. and with int 2 with most units, so easy to sweeping advance

There are several units in the Necron codex that have fearless. For the most part, it's well documented that CC is their weak point.

Curious, what was your opponents list when you "Smashed" him?

Would flamers work good on necrons? Especially immortals..

Heavies would work well, now that Necrons are mostly 4+ armour.

My Horrors and Flamers of Tzeentch were viciously effective yesterday against a Newcron force, as Warpfire is AP 4

Screamers (when I can afford to get them) would probably be pretty effective against the new Cron vehicles as well..

*edit for typo*