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since necrons are the new flavor of the month, i imagine alot of armies will be unprepared for them and get curb stomped, leading to crys of "OP!!" and "CHEDAH!!!" in an attempt to help all of us who are stuck with older codex.

to start with, ill outline some stuff the Dark eldar can use to fight the necrons.

the biggest thing to consider when looking at the necron codex as a DE player, is the abundance of 24" str 5 shooting. such massed firepower can be bad news for the DE, even with flicker fields and the "venom spam" list. since splinter cannons work at 36" the 12" move the necrons can do on thier vehicles places them at the 24" they need. with night fields however, your forcing one of two things: either the necrons move faster and dont shoot, OR they move 12" disembark and pursue on foot. however this does not cover the 6" required, and should leave them 3-4" out of range. so night fields would be a good choice on vehicles, allowing them to maximize speed advantage and stay outside that 24" death range.

next, consider the RP of the necrons. it dosent work if the squad is wiped out, so to prevent the dead guys getting back up, focus fire and wipe the squad. the same may be true for thie vehicles, since Living Metal can negate stun locks. focus fire and knock them down, since they *should* have fewer vehicles making them prioritys for your ravagers and other assorted lances. common sense perhaps, but diffrent then the standard "stunned is fine" aproach.

last, for the DE a major advantage is initiave and CC. but to make the best of it, youll have to identify if they have any assault tricks to pull. a quick read of the necron army list will show this. read it, and know what each does. if your not sure ask or read the codex. (or do both). but the standard wych/incubi assault should do the trick on most units. (since the invun ignoring weapons are done with) another idea is the talos. it could potentially do some very bad things to necron infantry and vehicle alike, however it competes with the ravager.

will post more as i have the time to play some more games. also feel free to add tatica for other codexs. the goal is to provide an ongoing tatica discussion on defeating the necron horde. (no offense to 'cron players )

I think, to compete well against Imhotek/scarabspam, Dark Eldar need to include one of these three units;
1. Beastmasters.
2. Razorwing Jetfighters.
3. Grotesques with a Haemy.

Without them, they just really struggle to kill massed (20+) scarabs. Poisoned shooting is really inneffective against mass wounds with a 3+ cover save, and if they aren't killed, their existence really limits the maneuverability of our vehicles. Each of the above is either quite good at killing the Scarabs (Grotesques charging with S6, Razorwing with monoscythe missiles) or is essentially a massive deterrent that you can bubble-wrap your vehicles with (Beastmasters)

I'd also like to second the idea of army-wide nightshields. They're already good against Grey Knights as they make psycannons fairly crap, but with the inclusion of Necrons, they are simply mandatory.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I think, to compete well against Imhotek/scarabspam, Dark Eldar need to include one of these three units;
1. Beastmasters.
2. Razorwing Jetfighters.
3. Grotesques with a Haemy.

Without them, they just really struggle to kill massed (20+) scarabs. Poisoned shooting is really inneffective against mass wounds with a 3+ cover save, and if they aren't killed, their existence really limits the maneuverability of our vehicles. Each of the above is either quite good at killing the Scarabs (Grotesques charging with S6, Razorwing with monoscythe missiles) or is essentially a massive deterrent that you can bubble-wrap your vehicles with (Beastmasters)

I'd also like to second the idea of army-wide nightshields. They're already good against Grey Knights as they make psycannons fairly crap, but with the inclusion of Necrons, they are simply mandatory.

I wouldn't say that those units are mandatory, but Necrons will probably reduce the amount of pure Venom spam lists you see around (which really isn't a balanced build to start with). Without cover Dark Eldar will shred Scarabs just like they do any light infantry. Any half decent DE player is going to force you to come out into open ground to get his vehicles with assault units, and as you can't consolidate you then get torrented off the board. Most balanced competitive 5th edition lists should be fine against Necrons tbh (its just now Necrons are competitive in return).

Nightshields are definitely a very powerful upgrade and a no brainer on the fliers already, the real question though is whether you take them over Flickerfields. Its really just too expensive to take both Nightshields and Flickerfields on everything across the entire army imo, and its hard to see people giving up on Flickerfields.

Living Metal is annoying, but it doesn't prevent stunlocks. Unlike Psychic Pilot its done after every shaken/stunned result, so if they fail the Living Metal 'save' then you can move onto the next vehicle if you need to.

One thing which will definitely come into play with fragile/mobile/MSU armies like Dark Eldar is the importance of spacing. Tesla weapons look like they will be really annoying for armies which have large numbers of light vehicles, Dark Eldar are probably the hardest hit by its special rule, but you do have good mobility, so most of the time should be able to keep your Raiders 6" away from each other.

All great points. Scarabs seem to be the main threat of the army especially in the anti tank role. Dealing with them and any spiders would be a priority. However adding night shields as well as flicker fields does not pose a significant upgrade in points. Venoms come stock with FF and only 10 pts a vehicle for the night shields. Raiders and ravagers take the biggest hit, adding 20 pts instead of 10 per vehicle. But that's still only an average increase of 50 pts army wide. Fairly easy to accommodate that. While blast weapons like the mono scythe missile work well on scarabs, do t forget the nice abundant blaster. The str 8 insta kills them and forces invuns or cover saves. And blasters are common along with lances. Since cron lists should be aprox 4-6 vehicles plus spiders and scarabs, (I'm guessing on this) most DE army's should have lance blaster to spare for sniping down scarabs. Scourges are a great platform. Another option to perhaps be considered are jetbikes with cluster caltrops. A unit of 6 bikes with 2 caltrops can drop a lot of str 6 hits plus more str 4 hits on those scarabs before they can do anything. Pack a blaster or 2 and you add some nice shooting to the unit. Expensive, but perhaps fast enough to cut down the scarabs before they do much.

Don't bunch up your vehicles.

Keep the vehicles moving.

Once you start attacking a unit, keep attacking it until it is dead.

I would say it's business as usual for us DE. Kill the crap out of a unit until it is no longer a threat, and then kill the crap out of the next unit. Tie things up with CC wyches, shoot things with appropriate AV and AI weapons and keep your vehicles moving.

Razorwings are going to become a bit more viable, as their load of missiles will make short work of scarab swarms. I could also see liquifier guns becoming more important for the exact same reason. Beyond that? Nothing really has changed all that much. It's a new threat, one that requires new tactics. It's only unbeatable if you go into the fight with the attitude you can't win.

So with dark eldar pretty much business as usual, I'm turning attention to another army. The bugs! Now, this might be another hopeless cause, but I think the tyranids can work against necrons, and here's my initlal take on how to do so.

First, once again the threat. Of the crons is obviously the 24" str 5 shooting gallery. Toughness 6 TMC are a little more worried about this. However the smaller bugs now have something serious to consider. To that end I believe the bugs have but a few options to deal with them.

First, speed. If the bugs can close distance and get into assault quickly, they should be ale to overwhelm the necrons, and the bugs have initaive! Flyrants, shrikes gargoyles, even Harpys are fast enough to put the hurt on in cc. On the ground one should look to minimize approach shooting, and just get at it. S dakka fex in pods, trygon primes - anything that can show up close to the necrons and unload a butthurt load of shots into target unit.

To counter the scarabs, although this is not tested, flying rippers or even basic rippers, can go after the scarabs and tie them up for a few rounds to allow your bigger units to engage and destroy them. Vehicles are tougher, but venom cannons can shine here. (since the target vehicles are open topped) and the range they have means they can hopefully avoid return fire. Whereas hive guard at 24" will be facing tougher times.

Anyone care to add or correct anything?

Speaking of Tyranids; Ymgarl Genestealers wreck anything Troop Necrons have with impunity. Outflanking Genestealers also slice through most of what the Necrons have in the way of troops.

Monsterous Creatures assault the vehicles, small termigaunts or hormagaunts tar the C'tan better than orks. Give them toxin sacs and they'd probably kill the shard in combat.

Just ignore the monoliths and go for phase ou....oh..

Jaon wrote:Just ignore the monoliths and go for phase ou....oh..

Same concept still applies.

As for Dark Eldar; my army sees no change on the horizon to deal with the new codex. I already pack a unit of beasts with offensive and defensive grenades, and most games they struggle to find something to fight. If a big mass of scarabs are going to come rushing across the board at me, I'd be most obliged.

I don't think that Necron Warriors are good enough to create a new, T4, 4+ save type of metagame army. Most people will just take Immortals, so standard MEQ tactics will apply. I find that a shame. If you are allowed to join two Crypteks from two different Royal Courts to the same Warrior unit, however, I could see them becoming very powerful.

Oaka wrote:I don't think that Necron Warriors are good enough to create a new, T4, 4+ save type of metagame army. Most people will just take Immortals, so standard MEQ tactics will apply. I find that a shame. If you are allowed to join two Crypteks from two different Royal Courts to the same Warrior unit, however, I could see them becoming very powerful.

What makes you think most people are taking immortals over effective AV13 transports? The vast, vast majority of the lists I see revolve around ghost arks. Not to say that Immortals are a bad unit, though.

I agree with most people that the 'crondex isn't going to shake up the game all that much, but it provides a varied list of potential threats that, while individually easy to deal with, will be difficult to deal with as a whole. Most codices (and the 5E rules in general) reward spamming certain units, but with 'crons you can field a pretty varied force and still have it be viable. While we only have two choices for troops, they come at a pretty cost-effective price. We've got ways to ensure the only thing you see the first couple turns are AV13 (which you probably can't even shoot at since solar pulses seem very popular). We've got a deep striking paper plane that can absolutely decimate a parking lot. We've got cheap units of T6 MCs that you need to do 7 wounds to before they lose a model (although DE will obviously eat them alive).

What we don't have is:
- Reliable anti-horde (only pie plates are absurdly expensive, bolter fire won't bring down enough orks to matter, especially if a KFF is part of the equation)
- Reliable anti-high armor infantry (termies assaulting out of an LR will almost certainly cause a unit to fold, probably 2 since a round of 'cron shooting won't be enough to decimate the unit)
- Any sort of sweeping advance protection

I see our biggest problems will prove to be heavily mechanized guard (since we'll never be able to peel all those chimeras off of objectives, or take them out before the enclosed meltas inevitable feth up our arks), ork hordes/kanwalls, and super-mobile DE armies. I think we excel against many MEQ lists, mechanized or otherwise, tyranids, and most hybrid GEQ lists. I think we'll do well against most Eldar lists, mechanized ork forces, and tau.

I was about to say: Boyz. 11 Sluggas jumping out of a Trukk with a PK Nob will totally wipe out a 10 strong Scarab Swarm.

44 Attacks, 30 Hits, 20 Wounds, minus 7 saves, 4 dead Scarab Bases, 6 left. Scarabs will have 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 dead Orks. 4 PK Attacks, 3 Hits, 2 Wounds, 2 more Dead Scarab bases, 4 left. 19-4, 15 Fearless Armour Saves, 10 Wounds, no more Scarabs. Or better yet, 1 wound left to shield Da Boyz during the Necron Shooting Phase. 450 points removed by 117 for the cost of 24. That is an 18.75 multiple of cost to reward.

I'm looking forward to trying my Flamers of Tzeentch on the newcrons

Skulltaker would prolly rock against the Newcrons, with the only EW being on the C'tan Shards.


Wonder if Khorne accepts Metal Skulls.......

Ghengis, while true boys in their open topped truck can kill 150 points of scarabs, what happens if your truck dies first? Also, in 2 turns its not 10 bases for 150, its 28. 28, with 24 to attack if you charge, get 48 hits and 16 wounds, leaving you with a 1 wound nob. Sure, you win combat, but in the next turn they are back to 28 bases again.

Also, orks will struggle to kill cron vees with shooting. av13 means lootas cant pen, and glances to battlewagons that are open topped mean warriors can kill them. In cc you can do it, but if the crons built scarabs to a sufficient level it gets rough getting close enough. Plus, writhing worldscape combined with tremor staves may be faq'd as stacking together, meaning moving will be deadly for you.

All that may be true DevianID but for the first time that I can remember my Orky horde will be going first in CC when I charge

Random question: Do Crons have built in anti night fight rules or are they limited as well ?

Crons can get solar pulses (max of 2) which let them ignore night fighting on their turn.

As for orks going first, that will make the scarabs hid in cover so your lack of grenades makes you go last. Then you can strike first with subsequent squads that charge in, if your still around.

orks can take stikkbombs to ignore cover and strike at init. as for the orcs themselves, this is a good time for my take on how they can do things.

- first and as mentioned above, scarabs seem to be the thing to watch for, that add the beefy CC guys. since orks get shot to pieces by pretty much everything, and excell in CC (unless working with a kanwall or shooty list) and even then the orks dont do well in taking shots. KFF only provides 5+ cover, wich means the best bet is a war of attrition. even then, close combat seems to be the best option here. so fast trukks, battlewagons and so on.

as far as shooting, shoota boys and lootas can dish out respectable firepower, and are cheaper then necrons, by half the cost. additonally most range weapons are assault packing 2 or more shots, with a decent chance to hurt a warrior. the problems arise when trying to deal with the nearby arks and RP. the standard focus fire technique here, and lootas wont do much on A13. so rokkits seem to be the order of the day, as deffrollas have to bypass the 3+ ram save skimmers get. to that end, shoota boys in trukks with an extra rokkit, and the standard nob should be able to handle the basic infantry, while nobs with big choppas and powerklaws, with assorted kombi weapons should be able to handle the tricker necron deathstars, since you can pull wound allocation nonsense, pack a 4+/5+/fnp, and with cheap big choppas, swing at str 7 on the charge. this is more then enough to crunch scarabs fast, and it will wound most necron infantry on 2+. and with the sheer amount of attacks nobs can throw out, it should eventually overwhelm the necon infantry - and then sweep them. monoliths and the other scary heavy vehicles pose a threat as always, but a warboss with klaw should be able to take one down without too much difficulty. (6 str 10 attacks on the charge if kitted out with max attacks) this is also great use for nob bikers, and a warboss on bike. they are fast, get cover while moving, can shoot if needed and pack a wallop in CC. plus the increased toughness helps with taking gauss fire (wounding them on 4+ instead of 3+) and with diversification tricks should make a good size biker mob hard to take down. finally, burna boyz should be a welcome additon here. all those flamer attacks should help thin down necron infantry, and the option for power weapon use should also help.

As an Ork player, there are a few things that really do worry me.

Scarabs don't worry me as much - I already run grotzooka kanz.

BUT

Abundance of AV13 Skimmers makes me nervous. It's going to be tricky for me to find a way to address their existence: It's down to if I have Klaws to spare. Tankbustas on their own tend to get shot to pieces, so a rokkit-wagon may be something to try.

Then we have sniping Command Barges. The fact they stand a chance to snipe my nobs when they pass over a unit, makes me just "slightly" paranoid .

Doom Scythes in general don't bode well for my larger Orky units, but they fortunately don't have quantum shielding - so I can direct my lootas in their general direction.

As a Tyranid player, not only am I not afraid of Scarabs, I actually hope my 'Cron playing opponents take lots of them, as relatively few Necron units pack S8+ shooting, so the Doom has a real chance to "mindfreak" all those Scarabs, Spyders, and whatnot.

Ghost Arks and such are going to be annoying, but I'm just going to either run some Tyrannofexes (something I want to try out anyway) or figure something else out.

Remember is assault your hitting rear armor, so that negates the front side quantum shields. Fast moving Orc klaws such as via bike, or boarding plank could do the trick. Wrecking balls might also find a use here. A possible combo for trucks, although pricey, is fit them with rpj, plank, wrecking ball, grabby klaw, and riggers. Drive by at top speed, use the plank to PK the thing in movement phase. If its still up, apply the wrecking ball and klaw. Hopefully you take it out, or at least keep it in place so next turn your boys auto hit.

But in mho I think nob bikers are the best choice for anti while. With a18" charge range and turbo boost you should get at turn 2 charge. A few power klaws and big choppas will mess up just about anything. And if you attach a warboss and painboy, diversify the unit you have a pretty reliable deathstar unit that can deal with most anything the crons can field

DarthSpader wrote:

KFF only provides 5+ cover, wich means the best bet is a war of attrition. even then, close combat seems to be the best option here. so fast trukks, battlewagons and so on.

Wrong..the KFF grants "obscured" status to vehicles, which is 4+.
If the boys walk behind the Kanwall, they get 4+ from Kans, as well.
The KFF is only 5+ for infantry, jump infantry, and bikes (which happen to come with their own 4+).

I'm pretty sure they FAQ'd the KFF to only giving Kans and Dreads a 5+, as they're vehicles... I could be wrong though.

odorofdeath wrote:I'm pretty sure they FAQ'd the KFF to only giving Kans and Dreads a 5+, as they're vehicles... I could be wrong though.

You are...it says the opposite

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

Go read before posting, please, because bad info is the bane of all forums

Ghenghis Jon wrote:450 points removed by 117 for the cost of 24. That is an 18.75 multiple of cost to reward.

Sorry, I though that 1 Scarab cost 45 points, not 15.

DevianID wrote:Ghengis, while true boys in their open topped truck can kill 150 points of scarabs, what happens if your truck dies first? Also, in 2 turns its not 10 bases for 150, its 28. 28, with 24 to attack if you charge, get 48 hits and 16 wounds, leaving you with a 1 wound nob. Sure, you win combat, but in the next turn they are back to 28 bases again.

What makes you think your Beasts will ever get the charge on my Trukk Boyz? I could see bad deployment on my part, but if so, it would only be indicative of my inability to play the game competitively. What makes you think I'll give you 2 turns to breed Scarabs? Lootas wound Spyders on 3+, and they don't get a cover save from their swarms. Are you really going to use 450 points and ALL of your Heavy Support slots on Scarab producers? If so, then I would love to play against the list that has no Annihilation Barges, Doomsythes, Doomsday Arks, or Monoliths. As for AV 13, all you have left are open topped Catacomb Command Barges and Ghost Arks. You could Glance my Battlewagon to death IF you hit on 6's and IF you can get past my Kustom Fours Feeld and IF you roll enough 4+'s. That's a lot of ifs.

This new Codex is strong with multiple builds and different units that really enhance each other. I do think bringing 9 Spyders is really putting all of you eggs in one basket, and takes away so many of the other tools this Army can use to crush Orks. I also think that Scarabs are not one of them. Anyway, I can't wait to meet some of these guys on the Field of Battle.

After reading through the necron codex, a cheap inquisitor with rad grenades to accompany a squad is looking MIGHTY appealing.

ID scarab swarms with standard attacks?
Drag tomb spyders and destroyer lords down to being IDable by hammerhanded hammers (This also bypasses the spyders psychic save trying to activate FWs.)
Hammerhanded non-hammers get to wound C`tan on 5-6 rather than just 6.

Babby want.

Yes I. Was referring the cover save to infantry. If. They march behind kans or embark on trucks then obviously the obscured save comes in.

Personally I never really liked KFF. Forcing your army to bunch up is just begging for blast. Weapons and such. Plus most times my trucks are booting flat out anyway untill I get into charge range, so they get the 4+ anyhow. And once I get. The boys into combat the trucks are pretty much done anyway, and whatever else they acomplish is just gravy

Trukks don't get a cover save for moving Flat Out. Skimmers do, but not other Fast Vehicles.

Huh. Go figure I didnt even notice that. We have always played fast vehicles get flat out cover regardless if skimmer or not. Live and learn.

Well either way doesn't change my tactic with Orc that much.