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ShadarLogoth wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The bog standard Overlord is IMO the best bang for your buck. Imotekh is practically a nerf to the army-- after playing a few test games using him, I'm not sure why so many people think he's good and don't expect him to stick around for much longer.

Huh?

After you add up his wargear your basically paying 50 points for a few turns of NF, lightning strikes, pinpoint DSing FOs, and a OS Sr 6 AP 1 2D6" line of death weapon.. If the lightning strikes alone hit two units/turn for the first two turns (Statistically very likely if your opponent has at least 12 units) they pay for those 50 points. Two Crypteks with Solar cost more then 50 points. A OS SR6 AP1 line of death cost ?? and pinpoint DS Flayed Ones is another ?? in point cost, but certainly has value.

Practically a nerf?

Interwebs logic.

Edit: Said Sacrabs meant Flayed Ones

Imotekh's special night fighting is inferior to standard Solar Pulse night fighting in a balanced list, and the Solar Pulse option also costs substantially less. Seize the Initiative on 4+ is nice, but paying 225 points for a super character that can't even fight competently isn't worth it, especially since he causes your own army to operate under Night Fighting as well as theirs.

Corseth wrote:The average nightfighting roll is 21", so most Necron shooting only loses 3" in the dark (and a lot of necron shooting is 12" while moving anyway). As long as you're not using Doomsday Arks or Heavy Gauss Cannons you're probably not gonna be that hurt yourself by the night fighting rules.

It does hurt the Crypteks that have the Solar Pulse as well (36" Eldritch Lance), and are the most likely Harbinger weapon to be taken more than once. Not that it is a reason not to take it, but it's yet another thing to take into consideration.

Sasori wrote:

I actually only added up 35 points for his special abilities, after all of his wargear. Did you include the Phaeron upgrade in his cost as well?

Maybe so. I did the calculation a few days ago and posted that off memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:

Imotekh's special night fighting is inferior to standard Solar Pulse night fighting in a balanced list, and the Solar Pulse option also costs substantially less. Seize the Initiative on 4+ is nice, but paying 225 points for a super character that can't even fight competently isn't worth it, especially since he causes your own army to operate under Night Fighting as well as theirs.

Oh yeah, that's something else I forgot to throw in (and some how you still are contesting this?) So if Sasori is right that's 35 points your paying for NF for 2+ turns, Pinpoint FO's, a 2D6" SR6 AP1, Lightning strikes, AND seize on a 4+.

Man That is a frikken steal by any measurable quantity I can comprehend, and "can't even fight competently" is simply not true. Some one else did the math hammer on his CC versus a warscythe and it's actually better against some opponents and worse against others. With 4WS and 5S he has a .67 wounds/round against MEQ versus 1.25 with WS, however against something like Wyches its 1.10 (gauntlets) versus 1.25 for WS and against TEQ its .33 (Gauntlets) VS .83 (WS). The WS is definitely better but the disparity isn't as great as people make it out to be.

Immo actually seems very viable with long range shooting like Arks. Just take a Solar Pulse and a Chrono and you can set up their firelanes and then get two turns firing for each ark with no counter-shooting.



Stormlord - 225
Harbinger of Storm, Chronometron 40
Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse 55

8 warriors, Ghost Ark 219

Doomsday Ark - 175
Doomsday Ark - 175
Doomsday Ark - 175

1064.

What else to add to this core besides one Troops to compliment the alpha strike?

Immo gives you a reasonable chance to go first, limits first turn firepower by a significant degree and will throw some damage around to MSU armies (IE most everyone). So, if you built an alpha strike around him;


Doom Scythe x 3
Lychguard in Night Scythes
Scarabs running forward

Supported by relentless Warriors advancing forward into range---that seems pretty doable. At least some pretty difficult decisions for your opponent next turn.

A solar pulse cryptek gives just as much defensive advantage for only 20 points. And using him to negate Imotekh's night fighting is an even bigger waste of points. His seize bonus amounts to a 1/6 increase in the odds of going first.

Necrons don't need help beating units like wyches, they need help against Meq and Teqs.

Emperor awfulness wrote:A solar pulse cryptek gives just as much defensive advantage for only 20 points. And using him to negate Imotekh's night fighting is an even bigger waste of points. His seize bonus amounts to a 1/6 increase in the odds of going first.

Necrons don't need help beating units like wyches, they need help against Meq and Teqs.

And your only paying 35 points for it on Immo, and it can last more then two turns, and it causes lightning, and that's not even including all the other things he does that no one else in the dex can do. A 1/6 increase in going first is HUGE, especially in an army that can minimise the impact of NOT going first, so you can really stack a flank against an opponent when going second and have NF to fall back on if you don't get it.

CC contingency is something that needs to be accounted for in any Necron List against any opponent, and Immo, while not quite as awesome sauce as some overlords in CC, is no slouch.

But I guess if you already have determined that 35 points is too much for:
2+ turns of NF
Lightning
4+ Seize
Pinpoint FOs
Str6 AP1 2D6" line of death

Then I suppose there will be no convincing you

Trazyn the infinite


there i said it. I haven't played all of them, but to me, he seems very neat. He isn't a power house, but he does offer some very cool powers. First, i love his ability to capture objectives. I find this can be a pain because you can effectively make a non scoring unit scoring by adding him to it. Also, his empathic obliterator. On the one hand, its very circumstantial, on the other hand, charge him into 30 orks, kill ~15 before combat res. I know that that is not always going to happen, but it is a great nieche threat. That and his ability to "not die" can be a real pain, and it will make getting rid of your objective capturing capabilities much more difficult. also, i think he might be the best (relative) HQ to put with a squad of lychguard. Now not only can they capture objectives, but they can't be bogged down by swarms any more. I forget the rest of his abilities, but he would be my number one choice.

canadianone wrote:Trazyn the infinite


there i said it. I haven't played all of them, but to me, he seems very neat. He isn't a power house, but he does offer some very cool powers. First, i love his ability to capture objectives. I find this can be a pain because you can effectively make a non scoring unit scoring by adding him to it. Also, his empathic obliterator. On the one hand, its very circumstantial, on the other hand, charge him into 30 orks, kill ~15 before combat res. I know that that is not always going to happen, but it is a great nieche threat. That and his ability to "not die" can be a real pain, and it will make getting rid of your objective capturing capabilities much more difficult. also, i think he might be the best (relative) HQ to put with a squad of lychguard. Now not only can they capture objectives, but they can't be bogged down by swarms any more. I forget the rest of his abilities, but he would be my number one choice.

Good points. I like where your going with the Trazyn+LG.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Emperor awfulness wrote:A solar pulse cryptek gives just as much defensive advantage for only 20 points. And using him to negate Imotekh's night fighting is an even bigger waste of points. His seize bonus amounts to a 1/6 increase in the odds of going first.

Necrons don't need help beating units like wyches, they need help against Meq and Teqs.

And your only paying 35 points for it on Immo, and it can last more then two turns, and it causes lightning, and that's not even including all the other things he does that no one else in the dex can do. A 1/6 increase in going first is HUGE, especially in an army that can minimise the impact of NOT going first, so you can really stack a flank against an opponent when going second and have NF to fall back on if you don't get it.

CC contingency is something that needs to be accounted for in any Necron List against any opponent, and Immo, while not quite as awesome sauce as some overlords in CC, is no slouch.

But I guess if you already have determined that 35 points is too much for:
2+ turns of NF
Lightning
4+ Seize
Pinpoint FOs
Str6 AP1 2D6" line of death

Then I suppose there will be no convincing you

I'm going to call his 95 points of phylactery/weave/phase shifter/phaeron fair game, too. Assuming he joins a squad, because he's garbage hanging out on a CCB, phaeron is only helping gauss Immortals and Warriors. Nobody else wants/needs relentless. And in those squads, he probably won't be needing 75 points in survivability upgrades. If he joins Lychguards or a Royal Court, phaeron isn't much help, but his mediocrity in CC is apparent. He can take a beating, but can't dish it out. So he's best off hiding in the back where all of those survivability upgrades do nothing.

I'm going to call his night fighting worse than a solar pulse, because it affects you also. If not for the lightning, it would be directly worse than solar pulses. And flayed ones are a pretty lame unit to buff, probably the weakest in the codex.

So his strength 6 line is okay, if short ranged, and his lightning is good, and a 16% higher chance of going first is better than nothing. But his gear is certainly suboptimal, and you are still paying the points for it.

Emperor awfulness wrote:
I'm going to call his night fighting worse than a solar pulse, because it affects you also. If not for the lightning, it would be directly worse than solar pulses. And flayed ones are a pretty lame unit to buff, probably the weakest in the codex.

So his strength 6 line is okay, if short ranged, and his lightning is good, and a 16% higher chance of going first is better than nothing. But his gear is certainly suboptimal, and you are still paying the points for it.

Well, pulse only gives you one turn of Night Fight--which most of the time he will be giving you at least 2--so comparing it to a single pulse really isn't fair. It would be different perhaps if pulses were a bit cheaper and Crons had more long range alpha strike components in their army--but they really don't outside of ordinance range--which have always failed to impress in popping armor (Not to mention if they setup second, you'll likely have to move them anyways to avoid cover).

So, he gives you 2+ turns of Night Fight (Plus the ability to turn it off if you position well enough turn 1) + Lightning Strikes (Against MSU will be handy first turn).


And while his Seize only gives you 16-17ish increase in odds--it does play a larger factor on the table (and how players setup). You can setup rather aggressive, knowing you will have Night Fight first turn even if you fail to seize. Your opponent has to setup knowing that even though he has first turn, he might not get a turn in--get hit by lightning--and alpha striked. I'd almost rather give my opponent first turn with Imo, just so I could deny flank with some Scythes, make him think twice about an aggressive setup and waste his first turn.

I'm going to call his 95 points of phylactery/weave/phase shifter/phaeron fair game, too. Assuming he joins a squad, because he's garbage hanging out on a CCB, phaeron is only helping gauss Immortals and Warriors. Nobody else wants/needs relentless. And in those squads, he probably won't be needing 75 points in survivability upgrades. If he joins Lychguards or a Royal Court, phaeron isn't much help, but his mediocrity in CC is apparent. He can take a beating, but can't dish it out. So he's best off hiding in the back where all of those survivability upgrades do nothing.

I'm going to call his night fighting worse than a solar pulse, because it affects you also. If not for the lightning, it would be directly worse than solar pulses. And flayed ones are a pretty lame unit to buff, probably the weakest in the codex.

So his strength 6 line is okay, if short ranged, and his lightning is good, and a 16% higher chance of going first is better than nothing. But his gear is certainly suboptimal, and you are still paying the points for it.

Fair point on the survivability upgrade, but I envision him in a group of 20 warriors, making the Phaeron ability nails (1 point per model to give 20 shots a 30" mobile threat range instead of 24" static, yes please), and the survivability anti Warrior wipe contingency. Stick him out in front of the Phalanx and force your opponent to fight through him instead of dinging wounds off the warriors, also use him to soak wounds with his 2+/3++. You've got the Phylactery, might as well be a bit aggressive with him.

I just don't understand the FO hate, especially FOs enhanced by Immo. For 13pts a model there stat line is solid, there warriors that trade there gun for 2 CC attacks. What is it that you want them to do that they don't do already?

I say zandrek and obryon are the best, even if you don't use both, they still have some extremely versatile tactics and abilities. Obryon and lychguard? Hell yes, zandrek plus anything within LOS? even better. Both?=win

Has anyone used Illuminor Szeras and how good is he?

he is not the best but for his point cost he is very good. lord stat line (basically), high strength gun, improved stat on 1 squad and gaze of flame. but compared to the other HQ choices he pales. if ur in a low point game and want a little extra then he is perfect

My vote is Zahndrekh, his points cost is decent for his gear and the ability to enhance your forces for what ever job they are trying to achieve at the time. I would have him off with a unit of immortals adding and removing USR's while enabling your immortals to take some return fire without withering.

Obyron is also extremely useful if you are going to be taking Lychguard, he is a power house himself, and allows you to slam your shield guard at an enemy deathstar, give and take decent damage and them warp out if you are able to position enough fire power to really wail on them.

Mr Nobody wrote:Has anyone used Illuminor Szeras and how good is he?

My current vision for him is in a group of 20 warriors with a res orb and the gaze of flame he provides the unit plus the 5BS-or-5T-or-5S (and GA's providing cover) make the unit as a whole just nails (I also have Imo in the unit).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I'm going to call his 95 points of phylactery/weave/phase shifter/phaeron fair game, too. Assuming he joins a squad, because he's garbage hanging out on a CCB, phaeron is only helping gauss Immortals and Warriors. Nobody else wants/needs relentless. And in those squads, he probably won't be needing 75 points in survivability upgrades. If he joins Lychguards or a Royal Court, phaeron isn't much help, but his mediocrity in CC is apparent. He can take a beating, but can't dish it out. So he's best off hiding in the back where all of those survivability upgrades do nothing.

I'm going to call his night fighting worse than a solar pulse, because it affects you also. If not for the lightning, it would be directly worse than solar pulses. And flayed ones are a pretty lame unit to buff, probably the weakest in the codex.

So his strength 6 line is okay, if short ranged, and his lightning is good, and a 16% higher chance of going first is better than nothing. But his gear is certainly suboptimal, and you are still paying the points for it.

Fair point on the survivability upgrade, but I envision him in a group of 20 warriors, making the Phaeron ability nails (1 point per model to give 20 shots a 30" mobile threat range instead of 24" static, yes please), and the survivability anti Warrior wipe contingency. Stick him out in front of the Phalanx and force your opponent to fight through him instead of dinging wounds off the warriors, also use him to soak wounds with his 2+/3++. You've got the Phylactery, might as well be a bit aggressive with him.

I just don't understand the FO hate, especially FOs enhanced by Immo. For 13pts a model there stat line is solid, there warriors that trade there gun for 2 CC attacks. What is it that you want them to do that they don't do already?

The hate stems from the fact that they're costed and built like a troops choice but they're stuck in the Elites section, competing with MUCH better options (that are MUCH more expensive, of course). They're just terribly underwhelming even though they can bring a TON of attacks to the board.

Imotekh in our test games has been amazing. Pricey yes, but awesome. As Age of Egos said, you have to build a list around him.

We have found that the Alpha Strike shooty list or Scarab Farm assault oriented list works best.

I have tried basic Overlords with Phaeron, Warscythe, orb and a big brick of Warriors, and they work great! I really liked them quite a bit, and I think you can get away without taking the Phase Shifter on him.

The Destroyer Lord has also proven to be really good! Surprisingly so. I would certainly recommend giving hm a shot.

We haven't tried all the other HQ's yet, so I'll reserve judgement on which is "best" but for now, I'd tentatively say that in most lists, the Stormlord is the business.

Kevin949 wrote:

The hate stems from the fact that they're costed and built like a troops choice but they're stuck in the Elites section, competing with MUCH better options (that are MUCH more expensive, of course). They're just terribly underwhelming even though they can bring a TON of attacks to the board.

Fair enough, though from my personal experience of building lists the last couple of weeks It seems the Elite FOS is the last I tend fill generally speaking.

They are 4.33 points/4S-4WS-2I attack, with the resiliency of a space marine, that can deepstrike and infiltrate. Stack that up against any comparative bog standard CC model and I think they stack up pretty well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

The hate stems from the fact that they're costed and built like a troops choice but they're stuck in the Elites section, competing with MUCH better options (that are MUCH more expensive, of course). They're just terribly underwhelming even though they can bring a TON of attacks to the board.

Fair enough, though from my personal experience of building lists the last couple of weeks It seems the Elite FOS is the last I tend fill generally speaking.

They are 4.33 points/4S-4WS-2I attack, with the resiliency of a space marine, that can deepstrike and infiltrate. Stack that up against any comparative bog standard CC model and I think they stack up pretty well.

Hey, I'm on your side about flayed ones. Two squads of 20 in an Imotekh army with some JI fast attack support will tear it up for sure! The problem is that the flayed ones, especially now, can't feasibly be taken in groups smaller than 10 in just about any game size.

Kevin949 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

The hate stems from the fact that they're costed and built like a troops choice but they're stuck in the Elites section, competing with MUCH better options (that are MUCH more expensive, of course). They're just terribly underwhelming even though they can bring a TON of attacks to the board.

Fair enough, though from my personal experience of building lists the last couple of weeks It seems the Elite FOS is the last I tend fill generally speaking.

They are 4.33 points/4S-4WS-2I attack, with the resiliency of a space marine, that can deepstrike and infiltrate. Stack that up against any comparative bog standard CC model and I think they stack up pretty well.

Hey, I'm on your side about flayed ones. Two squads of 20 in an Imotekh army with some JI fast attack support will tear it up for sure! The problem is that the flayed ones, especially now, can't feasibly be taken in groups smaller than 10 in just about any game size.

Agreed, I say 15 to 20 or leave them at home. I just really love their synergy with Imo. They do exactly what I want an assault squad to do against foot based HS, stick um between them and the board and use your victims as cover.

I have used Orikan the Diviner in a couple of games and found that with two squads of LG or even Praetorians supporting him makes for a nasty day at the table for the other guy especially if you are playing a cc minded opponent. Open with with a truck load of warriors and immortals and then just let them wade into the fray with Orikan and his legion of cc troops plus when the "stars align" it really gets frisky cause your opponent will tend to grit his teeth. I really feel all the Lords have their benefit based on what kind of army you want to play. So my suggestion would be get either the Overlord model or just the Lord model and you can do a playing as option and try out all the different play styles with all of them.

Nemsor Zhandrek allows an all deepstrike list (Except for him, he has to be on the board) to all arrive at the same time, if an enemy comes in from reserves. That's insane. You can leave your entire army, except for him, in reserves, and then bring them in in response to where the enemy is arriving. Then, those units can act normally in your turn, since they arrived during the enemies' turn. Wraiths can DS in and charge. Good times.

SGrimhart wrote:I have used Orikan the Diviner in a couple of games and found that with two squads of LG or even Praetorians supporting him makes for a nasty day at the table for the other guy especially if you are playing a cc minded opponent. Open with with a truck load of warriors and immortals and then just let them wade into the fray with Orikan and his legion of cc troops plus when the "stars align" it really gets frisky cause your opponent will tend to grit his teeth. I really feel all the Lords have their benefit based on what kind of army you want to play. So my suggestion would be get either the Overlord model or just the Lord model and you can do a playing as option and try out all the different play styles with all of them.

That's a cool idea. If you haven't done so already drop a chronomotron in Orikan's unit, that way if the stars align early (say turn 3ish) you don't get gimped on turn 4 or 5 with an unlucky role.

Define "best"

Depends on what army type you field. A slow army with little ranged weapons would benefit from Imotekh. If you want a cheap one go for the Overlord, or similarly pump him up. A fast, tough unit for tying up units is the Destroyer. A fun version is the Overlord in Command Barge, sweeping everyone. The others all offer fun and unique armies but aren't worth it IMHO. However if you can be bothered to create a Nemesor Zandrekh & Vargard Obryon they seem pretty cool and relatively competitive and I love the fluff.

I'm currently tumbling around an Diviner+Infinite list. Still a work in progress but it has some exciting potential, a lot of time manipulation and what not.

Hammer18 wrote:just a q

ive seen absolutely no one mention the d lord. why?

pratell wrote:

Hammer18 wrote:just a q

ive seen absolutely no one mention the d lord. why?

no retinue, no eternal warrior.

Not even an invul save :(

ShadarLogoth wrote:

SGrimhart wrote:I have used Orikan the Diviner in a couple of games and found that with two squads of LG or even Praetorians supporting him makes for a nasty day at the table for the other guy especially if you are playing a cc minded opponent. Open with with a truck load of warriors and immortals and then just let them wade into the fray with Orikan and his legion of cc troops plus when the "stars align" it really gets frisky cause your opponent will tend to grit his teeth. I really feel all the Lords have their benefit based on what kind of army you want to play. So my suggestion would be get either the Overlord model or just the Lord model and you can do a playing as option and try out all the different play styles with all of them.

That's a cool idea. If you haven't done so already drop a chronomotron in Orikan's unit, that way if the stars align early (say turn 3ish) you don't get gimped on turn 4 or 5 with an unlucky role.

No, but I will this weekend when I am butchering my opponent I have put a couple of Crypteks with him and that really makes for a mess all over the table. I started doing this since most of the people at my local shop use either tyranids, orcs or GK and I needed something to offset the cc aspect. I have also used Trazyn which works wonders against horde armies.... my buddy can't stand it as he is a 'nid player. LOL