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Pros:
Every model does something useful in the right combo
Friendlier Playerbase (Your mileage by very)
Faster and more Tactical Gameplay

Cons:
Smaller Playerbase


Depending on how you view it:
Less Dice needed (You'll never need more than 6)

a game that requires more dynamic brain usage

It shows that PP allows people to spend less money for a better variety of armies. In most cases if you just pull out 1 unit from a 40K army you're not changing the basic army tactic/feel that much. In PP changing 1 unit can make quite a difference in how the army plays/feels.
It also shows the flexibility of the systems in terms of choices for players. GW not so flexible without spending some significant amount of dollars (in most cases). PP changing one caster can cost as little as 12.00 and with that you've changed your army significantly.

That's a side affect of the fact that in warmachine one unit occupies a greater portion of the army. in my 40k example my army has 4 indipendient chars and 7 units. My warmachine army has 1 caster, 2-3 solos, 1 jack, and 2 units. Replacing one unit and im dropping 25% of my army there. Do the same to a 40k army and you will change something of how it plays, just depends on what you replace it with.

The whole replacing caster thing doesn't work well because there is nothing remotely like that in 40k. If you move back to the fantasy comparison then it would be akin to replacing your lvl4 wizard with a lord on a dragon and that will definitely change how the army plays.


I would have thought faster would be one pro of warmachine but that last 2 hour game really dragged on. The guys in my are haven't progressed to scenarios yet, were still just playing assassination.

The major bonus warmachine has for me is that you are never truly out of the game. You can be down half your army and not have killed anything only to pull out a clutch caster kill to win the game. It can be frustrating to have it happen against you but pulling a win out of a bad situation makes for great games overall. In 40k if your significantly down it can be really hard to come back. Fantasy less so because positioning matters more but it is still difficult.

cypher wrote:
The major bonus warmachine has for me is that you are never truly out of the game. You can be down half your army and not have killed anything only to pull out a clutch caster kill to win the game. It can be frustrating to have it happen against you but pulling a win out of a bad situation makes for great games overall. In 40k if your significantly down it can be really hard to come back. Fantasy less so because positioning matters more but it is still difficult.

eCaine's Gate Crasher. 'Oh, you've killed my entire army? Well, have fun trying to catch my caster!'

@Cypher, what KIND of assassination are your playing?

Playing Kill Box will drastically reduce the time of play, as it restricts where casters can go(You lose if your Caster ends activation outside the Box). A single game in our group runs much faster now that players can't run away if they just have their caster left.

One of my biggest issues with GW (besides codex creep) is Force Allocation. Lets see, these guys suck and I don't really have any use for them but I will take them over other guys because I have to so that GW can sell models.......

The closest thing to madatory in WM/H is you have to take a 'caster/'lock.

GW games need FAs because of their poor intra-faction balance (rewarding of spam). Can you imagine what would happen if there was no Force Org chart? Logan Grimnar... and 12 Long Fang squads with 60 missile launchers.

I completely agree, with a better set of overall rules FA wouldn't be necesarry....oh wait....that would be WM/H.....
(That being said I play both, just haven't touched 40K in at least 1/2 a year of playing every Fri due to my opinion that PP makes a better game)

I think that FA is fine in both game systems: one of the easiest ways to break any system is doing one thing too much, so why not stop that from happening by restricting how much you can do?

Say they could spend X hours balancing one thing, or spend X hours balancing 2 things with FA restrictions: I'd prefer to go with the latter, because a lack of restrictions can still reward people with more money, because they have more options, regardless of balance.

Both versions of force allocations work well enough. Remove PP's and someones gonna take to the field with villemont and 15 paladins. A couple of armies could try to give it a run for its money, all others fall like grass.

Unit spam will always be a problem in games such as this. Both systems have good models, better models, always taken models, and useless models (they do exist).

Honestly if you removed PP's UAs, you probably don't see lists materially different than what they already are. Very few models/units are good enough to justify 'spamming'.

Vilmon/15 Paladins, for example, is slower than molasses when utilizing their defensive abilities and has no way to circumvent rough terrain. They're 1 dimensional and matchup prone; any Cygnar list wtih ATGM, for example, can shoot them dead 3-4 per turn. If they try using shield wall, then the non-magic weapon units simply walk up and tear them apart. Any WM army with Aiyana/Holt can do the same. Hordes has a tougher time, but Mulg, Molik Karn with Extoller, Legion lists with the new centipede beast (MW animus) all give Paladin spam a hearty roflstomping.

Yank FA from GW games, however, and you have a lot more potential abuse from the spam of super units/models. Dark Angels would jump right to the top of competitiveness, for example, due to 75 pt Typhoon land speeders. 26 Typhoons gives you more than 50 ML shots for anti vehicle/infantry and another 26 heavy bolters or multimeltas for dealing with elite infantry and MCs.

Karchev and 5 Beast 09's as a 50 point game (if I did the math correctly) would be insanely obnoxious. I bet that a whole army of tiny little Black 13's running around would fold under certain things, but give a lot of people trouble, simply because the unit is so cheap for decent power and lots of utility.

"FA:C" is also a FA limitation.

To add a few more to the list.

Pros:

New models for every army every year.
Models don't get left out of the rules, everything is playable forever.
A single purchase can change the way your army works dramatically.

Cons

Less convertible, less plastic.

Personally I have that games of Warmahordes are a lot more enjoyable than 40K ever was. Another thing that I like better about PP is that the starter boxes are actually legitamite starting armies. Where as the 40K starter box is not, nor are the battlalion boxes actually a starter box. Also i persaonally enjoy PP's models better then Gw's. Sure I can't do a lot of converting but I enjoy painting PP"s models a lot more then GW's models.

Warmahordes does seem good and all but for one thing mainly for me. Where I live, I have never met anyone who plays or seen any indication that anyone plays Warmahordes. It's all mostly WH fantasy or 40k, mostly 40k... And I love converting models which doesn't seem all that friendly in Warmahordes.

Well it does seem PP is moving more towards plastics with their new plastic beasts/jacks. And it's generally easier to get people to try Warmahordes than WH40K given that it literally only costs 50 bucks for them to give it a try.

Namica wrote:Well it does seem PP is moving more towards plastics with their new plastic beasts/jacks. And it's generally easier to get people to try Warmahordes than WH40K given that it literally only costs 50 bucks for them to give it a try.

It's best if you don't compare PP's plastics to GWs. They're really not even close to the same quality. Privateer is new at it, so that's fine, but IMO they've quite inferior and, despite being plastic, don't offer much more in the way of customization.

I disagree about the friendliness of the player base. In my area, page 5, and the overall competetiveness of the game itself, creates a very aggressive, unfriendly game setting. So much so, in fact, that I only will play with my buddies.

Big negative for me is Privateer's inability to have a consistent means of delivering their product. I try and support my LGS's as much as possible, but with PP's new "core" model set, it makes it very hard to get some things. Subsequently, I often have to order online. I don't mind it, but I'd much prefer if I could shop at my LGS for the things I need.

Big positive for Privateer is the support of their game. They do a really fantastic job supporting the entire system, from organized league play, to the Iron Arena at events. IMO Iron Arena at GenCon & Adepticon is better than GW's Games Day, and it isn't close.

Big negative, and it's been addressed already in the thread, is Privateer's inability to give you multiple sculpts for a unit. 10 man units, I'm okay with doubling up. I think the inability to have 5 unique sculpts in a boxed set (like the Trollkin Sluggers, where there are only 3 sculpts in the 5 man unit) is inexcusable when the models aren't customizable. It may be a petty complaint, but it bothers me. Stemming from this, some of their recent sculpts have simply been boring to me. They're fairly static, and the recent trend seem to be "give everyone a lot of fligree on their armor." Those are all aesthetic complaints, so YMMV.

I think PP clearly has the superior ruleset. It's much more focused and tighter, but the combo's in the game, much like in a CCG like Magic, can get frustrating if you don't know them all. You won't win if you don't know how your opponents army works. Chances are it won't even be competitive. I typically like the more casual nature of 40k, and the fact that I can usually know what a unit will be doing just by looking at them. Someone can tell me a weapon is melta, and I know what that means, it doesn't matter if their Necrons, Marines, or Eldar. One model with a Magelock Pistol in Warmahordes may have completely different rules than another magelock pistol model in the same unit (see Black 13th). It's not bad, but the learning curve is certainly much steeper.

I like both, I play both, and I think they're completely different games.

While the friendliness of the players surely depends on the group, it seems to me the GW crowd is overall way more rude/ annoying. Sure there douches everywhere, but i have met far more douchy 40k/fantasy guys than warmahordes people. Also i dont think a competitive setting is bad at all, considering that you are competitive in any game where you at least try to win. Even in tournaments the matche are usually way friendlier and nicer than in all 40k tournys i seen to this day.

Also that PP is atm not able to produce enough to meet the huge demand is annoying, but not really a problem. Especially since they are aware of that and are trying to get production to the point were they can satisfy the costumers

That's because people that come to the game expecting competition dont get butthurt when they face tough odds.

sourclams wrote:Honestly if you removed PP's UAs, you probably don't see lists materially different than what they already are. Very few models/units are good enough to justify 'spamming'.

I tried to find the picture from this year's Gencon, but have so far failed. It was a Goreshade v Butcher game where they both spammed their FA:U infantry(Banes and Doom Reavers respectively). Not saying that you're wrong(these were extreme examples of the Tiers), but people do it.

Vombaticus wrote:
Also that PP is atm not able to produce enough to meet the huge demand is annoying, but not really a problem. Especially since they are aware of that and are trying to get production to the point were they can satisfy the costumers

Can we really call it "at the moment" at this point? Their supply issues have been going on for over a year... Privateer seems to get a huge pass on this, where if it were a GW problem the internet would be on fire.

@Negator - I don't really understand your comment.

Don't get me wrong; I don't mind the competition. However, based on my experiences (and bear in mind I play in the Adepticon Team Tourney every year), I find that Warmahordes tournaments are far more aggressivly competitive to play in, to the point the fun goes away. I like being able to drink during the Adepticon TT and relatively competitive. I don't have to study anyone else's army to do so. I simply don't have the time to know every combo possibility for every Warmahordes army I could face. As such, I'm at a significant disadvantage just walking into the game. For me, I prefer more casual competition, and for me, I've found that more often playing 40k. I typically play Warmahordes with 2 or 3 friends that have similar time constraints to me, and in that setting the game is really enjoyable for me.

cincydooley wrote:Can we really call it "at the moment" at this point? Their supply issues have been going on for over a year... Privateer seems to get a huge pass on this, where if it were a GW problem the internet would be on fire.

If GW suffered a year long stock shortage as a result of growth then the internet would indeed, as you say "be on fire".

Platuan4th wrote:

sourclams wrote:Honestly if you removed PP's UAs, you probably don't see lists materially different than what they already are. Very few models/units are good enough to justify 'spamming'.

I tried to find the picture from this year's Gencon, but have so far failed. It was a Goreshade v Butcher game where they both spammed their FA:U infantry(Banes and Doom Reavers respectively). Not saying that you're wrong(these were extreme examples of the Tiers), but people do it.

That's exactly my point. Things that 'break' the FA already exist, and you rarely see them played (T4 Goreshade vs T4 eButcher was a humorous exception because it came down to Bane vs Reaver spam) because they're one dimensional lists prone to matchup issues and aren't truly competitive. This was a funny/silly matchup, but neither of these guys made it to the top 3 for the tournament.

What, for example, does Goreshade do against a balanced Old Witch list with WGI? Mostly it runs forward into a hale of shotgun fire and dies horribly ten and fifteen bane thralls at a time.

George Spiggott wrote:

cincydooley wrote:Can we really call it "at the moment" at this point? Their supply issues have been going on for over a year... Privateer seems to get a huge pass on this, where if it were a GW problem the internet would be on fire.

If GW suffered a year long stock shortage as a result of growth then the internet would indeed, as you say "be on fire".

They've had OVER A YEAR to catch up. Over a year. They even halted production of new products for a full month. Now they think they're going to launch a brand new Sci Fi game... How are they going to sustain product production and supply for two games if they can't get caught up on one? And I'm looking forward to Sector 7, or whatever the hell they've named it. The fact still remains that Privateer is having MAJOR production issues. Their "core lists" are guaranteed to ship "within 2 weeks." If you want something not on their core list, you could be looking at 2 months? To me, this is a problem. Not to mention their core list doesn't include some important faction-specific pieces (Cough*Earthborn Dire Troll*Cough).

I love that they're finally getting around to doing plastic jack and beast kits. I think those kits still need a lot of improvement to be close to on part with similar plastic kits (including pre built kits like are included in Dust Tactics). Their resin is also, at this point, very rough. My Storm Striders had mould lines everywhere. There were a ton of bubbles too. Are they huge issue for me? Naw, they were fixable with some spit and elbow grease. But when we see similar issues with GWs new resin production in Finecast (which is being done on a MUCH larger scale, with much more detailed and smaller models), the fething internet explodes and all the meme-geniuses cleverly create "failcast." What I'm talking about is a decidedly unfair double standard. It is what it is, but to discount Privateer's severe inability to get their models to the market in a reasonable time for over a year is a problem in my eyes. I suppose I'm of the opinion that, if you can't keep your normal product in stock, STOP MAKING NEW gak until you can. You can't grow the game if you can't keep basic models (cough*titan bronzeback*cough) in stock.

With all that said, I'll still buy all my new Trollbloods & Cygnar models as they come out; If I don't, who knows when I may be able to get them.

I think the difference is in the communication and acknowledgement of issues, and the differences in approach between PP and GW.

GW, for example, hailed Finecast as the biggest leap forward in miniatures based hobbying since man first scrawled buffalo paintings to the light of newly-invented fire. Their first couple runs had significant flaws and they raised prices while touting lowered costs (for them).

This was coming after their trade embargoes against Australia and their annual across-the-board price hike.

PP by contrast, has been open and somewhat transparent regarding their production shortages, and if you go to their forums and create a thread with legitimate gripes against their company, you will get a paid employee to give you feedback, personally. PP has had a few customer-friendly bundles designed to save money and they even throw free stuff in to boot.

I'm no PP apologist, and I too was stuck with a lot of backlogged model orders from their about 6 months back, but recently I've had no problems getting stuff from my FLGS and I've always found their openness laudable.

I suppose I'm slightly insulated from this, for two reasons.

1. Almost all my purchases are new releases as they're released since I long since bought all the old models I need.

2. In the UK PP has a subsidiary manufacturer for producing metals. They don't seem to have the same backlog. Back when the plastics came out they were a royal pain to source in the UK.

IIRC the Titan Bronzeback is being redone as a resin/metal hybrid model. I know Black 13th are very difficult to source.

Some of the 'new gak' is stuff being repackaged or resculpted in plastic to alleviate these production problems.

cincydooley wrote:
They've had OVER A YEAR to catch up. Over a year. They even halted production of new products for a full month. Now they think they're going to launch a brand new Sci Fi game... How are they going to sustain product production and supply for two games if they can't get caught up on one? And I'm looking forward to Sector 7, or whatever the hell they've named it. The fact still remains that Privateer is having MAJOR production issues. Their "core lists" are guaranteed to ship "within 2 weeks." If you want something not on their core list, you could be looking at 2 months? To me, this is a problem. Not to mention their core list doesn't include some important faction-specific pieces (Cough*Earthborn Dire Troll*Cough).

I love that they're finally getting around to doing plastic jack and beast kits. I think those kits still need a lot of improvement to be close to on part with similar plastic kits (including pre built kits like are included in Dust Tactics). Their resin is also, at this point, very rough. My Storm Striders had mould lines everywhere. There were a ton of bubbles too. Are they huge issue for me? Naw, they were fixable with some spit and elbow grease. But when we see similar issues with GWs new resin production in Finecast (which is being done on a MUCH larger scale, with much more detailed and smaller models), the fething internet explodes and all the meme-geniuses cleverly create "failcast." What I'm talking about is a decidedly unfair double standard. It is what it is, but to discount Privateer's severe inability to get their models to the market in a reasonable time for over a year is a problem in my eyes. I suppose I'm of the opinion that, if you can't keep your normal product in stock, STOP MAKING NEW gak until you can. You can't grow the game if you can't keep basic models (cough*titan bronzeback*cough) in stock.

With all that said, I'll still buy all my new Trollbloods & Cygnar models as they come out; If I don't, who knows when I may be able to get them.

Ok, about Level 7. It's looking like it it's a whole load of different things set in the Level 7 universe and not a miniature wargame like warmahordes. If that is true then what happens to Level 7 will have very little impact upon warmachine. Also, PP have been open with explaining their issues. Their sales have increased rapidly and the owner (Matt Wilson?) has said that he doesn't want to hire anybody that would then have to be fired when they have sorted out the problem. Let me end this part by saying I have no idea how bad it is for you folks as I'm over in the UK and thus all our stuff is made by a local production plant and I haven't bought any thing major for a while now as money is very tight.

On to the finecast segment. I can see why you think there is a double standard but I think you're missing something. Did PP say anything like this, "providing you with incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits"(here)? I don't believe they did but please prove me wrong. Yes GW did resin on a far larger scale but then they are the larger company. I doubt that PP HQ has more than 100 people, I'd be suprised if it was over 60. How many staff work at GW HQ? And yet they had retailers sending back entire orders because they didn't believe that they should sell it to their customers (Wayland Games). Finecast had problems with large bubbles and other such things, is that "high-quality"? I remember seeing somebody paint a finecast and metal model then compare the two. The only way people could tell the difference was by the casting error on the finecast's face. Not by an improvement on the detail. So people complained that the finecast stuff didn't match what the marketing had promised and that's why I think "the fething internet explodes".

BTW, I'm probably a bit biased in my writing as I played GW for many a year but PP seems like a more reasonable company, who put out a better rule system and communicate with its player base.

I'd mostly give PP a break with its production problems, but do I think that a degree of keeping up older stock is necessary for the health of the game/company, before expansion pieces. PP has been expanding immensely, and, while some of it is welcome, I think that they're basically letting their power get to them: Their old stuff was, in attitude and execution, more risky, and right now they're softening their language and ideas (compare: page 5 in the original vs. new Prime; negative descriptions of models vs. uniformly positive descriptions in the rewrites; apotheosis vs. wrath in terms of ambition).

I feel like PP has crossed the threshold from "new ballsy startup" to "the establishment." Of course, GW is still the old guard, but PP is working towards something more easily marketable (not that it wasn't before) and has lost a certain spark in there. This is the same spark GW lost years ago (though, I do believe there's life left in the niches (Forge World; Specialist Games (though I don't know if I can count that as active); maybe other areas).

Regarding the two approaches to new material, I think that GW did a poor job in overhyping the change and w/ quality control, and PP frankly sacrificed a lot of their look in moving to plastic: having handled a bunch of their plastic stuff, I feel like they're barely beyond the technical ability they had nearly at the start of their company. I feel like both companies dropped the ball with this, releasing products in a new material that neither was familiar with, so they released sub-par products.

cincydooley wrote:Don't get me wrong; I don't mind the competition. However, based on my experiences (and bear in mind I play in the Adepticon Team Tourney every year), I find that Warmahordes tournaments are far more aggressivly competitive to play in, to the point the fun goes away. I like being able to drink during the Adepticon TT and relatively competitive. I don't have to study anyone else's army to do so. I simply don't have the time to know every combo possibility for every Warmahordes army I could face. As such, I'm at a significant disadvantage just walking into the game. For me, I prefer more casual competition, and for me, I've found that more often playing 40k. I typically play Warmahordes with 2 or 3 friends that have similar time constraints to me, and in that setting the game is really enjoyable for me.

Dude, come up to Mansfield sometime, we're very calm there, and try to have some monthly events... Very calm demeanor...

PP wins hands down on cost and rule set.

Start up cost is alot cheaper. And I added up the MSRP of my 1850 40k armies and my 35 point PP armies. I could buy two PP lists and still have money left over for the cost of either 4K list. And none of my armies are extreme in the types of models I use. They are all a good balance.

Rule set and quality of books is won by PP hands down. If anyone disagrees simply look at the Errata for both games. ALL the PP errata for hordes and warmachine is shorter than the errata for the single 40K rulebook. And 40K has huge amounts of errata for each codex as well.


My personal experience is that PP is much more customer friendly and oriented, even with their production issues.

And I like the PP range of models a ton better than the 40K ones. But that is personal opinion.

Another thing worth noting is that WM/H is easier to find a place to play as you do not need such a huge table. For me, that is a huge deal. It is easy to set up a 4x4 table at my house, but a 4x6 is starting to get very large.