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I've been messing around with a reserve list, so I gave the raveners a break. However, in my latest game against DE, I used 8 with AG (I'm using the fandex, FYI). I forgot to roll for them till turn 4, So things definitely would've been different, but when they came in, 1 unit ate 5 incubi and Drazar, and the other blew up a raider and ate the squad inside, then finished off the remains of another.

I think of them as disruption units, as they lack the raw power of a hammer unit a la hammernators, and aren't at all durable. However, they can quickly threaten wimpy backfield units, and personally I feel that's the role they're most suited to.

They're definitely a scalpel unit against marines, but against GEQ they can masquerade as mainline assault units OK.

Billinator wrote:I believe that wrapping your mind around the Tyranids, is wrapping your mind around, that there'll always be certain vulnerabilities. Whether you choose a list with a high model-count, or you prefeer a list packed with T6 wounds, you're bound to face the fact, that your list is vulnerable.

Raveners, while not sharing the sturdy characteristics, like the MCs, offers the list an entirely different aspect. Of course, one could argue, if they're worth it with the high probability of having them ID'ed. But reversely, you're able to close in much, much faster, than the Trygon can.

I do, however, believe that a Ravener-heavy list requires a different setup. You're more or less bound to pack a great deal of turn 2-3 assaulties in your list. The Raveners don't stand their ground alone. Their low toughness just doesn't allow it. But it doesn't mean, that there isn't a way around these weaknesses. The obvious answer here, of course, is having synergy. If your list doesn't "support" these units, you can't expect them to perform very well.

Fact is that there is no set of rules. There's the cookie-cutters. And these are called such, because they're widely known to perform well. They get the job done. But they don't say, that there's no other way of doing things. Just that they're known for delivering great results.

The best way of approaching the Tyranids, is to try and fill the gaps, that each unit leaves. If there's alot of small units, you're vulnerable to blast weapons, flamers and the like. If you there's alot of T6, you're vulnerable to AV-like weaponry. If you're all out on the T4 medium-sized models, you're vulnerable to anything that can ID. But with the right synergy, you're able to fill these gaps, by having your units support each other.

Good points. Right now, I've got an all-melee list at 500 points with Raveners, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, and Warriors. I'm hoping the speed of the Hormagaunts and the Infiltrating of the Genestealers keeps them all in line with the speed of the Raveners.

odorofdeath wrote:I've been messing around with a reserve list, so I gave the raveners a break. However, in my latest game against DE, I used 8 with AG (I'm using the fandex, FYI). I forgot to roll for them till turn 4, So things definitely would've been different, but when they came in, 1 unit ate 5 incubi and Drazar, and the other blew up a raider and ate the squad inside, then finished off the remains of another.

I think of them as disruption units, as they lack the raw power of a hammer unit a la hammernators, and aren't at all durable. However, they can quickly threaten wimpy backfield units, and personally I feel that's the role they're most suited to.

They're definitely a scalpel unit against marines, but against GEQ they can masquerade as mainline assault units OK.

Ah, ok. I'm not using the fandex, so I'm not sure of the differences, but they sound similar enough to me.

@Tangent
I think i'd lose the Warriors. Slow and vulnerable to ID isn't where you wanna be. If you like it fast, like i do, you should consider some Gargoyles. And give them AG + TS!

As for HQ, a fast-list begs for you to use the Parasite. He's a nice addition. Attach him to the Gargs for a nice meat shield.

I've heard good things about the Hormagaunts in these lists. They're much more reliable, when it comes to speed. I think they'll work great together with the rest of the army.

Your Elite slots should, of course, be filled with a minimum of 6 HG. They're just not up to debate, IMO. If you 2x3 them, you leave a slot open for another Elite.

HQ should be something like Parasite and prefeerably a Prime. If you DO like your Warriors (which i don't!), you might want to consider adding the Prime for wound allocation. Problem with these guys, however, is that they're darn slow. They lack the fleet, which makes them fall behind.

Basically, just do some simple math. Ravener vs. Warrior. Both are 30 pts, naked, so either way, you're not putting more points into either. So... They share the same line of stats until we reach Iniative, where Ravs beats them. Ravs have got more attacks. Ravs however, doesn't have the same Ld value, but since we're playing an all fearless army, then who cares? Armor save is worse on the Raveners, YES. Thats bad, buuut... With their 18" threat radius, they're more than capable of staying outside of that 24" Bolter range. The only thing, i think, that speaks for the Warriors are their synapse. Some might argue their upgrade possibilities, and they might just be right. But what are those worth, if they never reach CC to use them?

Also, do you TS your Stealers? I think you should go heavy on these guys. Lots of medium sized squads. With TS. Don't make them too small. Have some Infiltrate. Have others outflank. The beauty of these guys, is that they're independent. They don't require the Synapse to function. This allows you to focus whatever synapse you have on your other units, such as the Raveners. Just make sure that your HQ units with the synapse is hidden deep within the groups they're attached to. And feel free to have them soak up some fire, if needs be!


@Odor
I'd recommend staying away from the Reserve-lists. They're just not a viable option in an army, that completely lacks good guns. We excel in CC, mainly. If you can't drop down and get into CC, then whats the point?
- There's a few units in our ranges, that allows for a decent DS, such as the Doom. But my issue regarding these lists, is that you spend too many points on units that benefit the +reserve-roll, while not really getting THAT much in return.
- Well, HTs are nice, but... Wing him up, and he's very vulnerable. Foot-TG him up and he's very slow. And both of these shares another "trait" - they're veeeery expensive!

Well Bill, I haven't actually played my Tyranids yet! I just recently got all of the models and will be playing my first game with them at 500 points this Sunday. I've got a Prime in a unit of 3 Warriors, escorted by 14 Hormagaunts. On top of that, I've got a unit of 3 Raveners and 8 Genestealers. The only upgrades are on the Warriors and Prime, and they have Pairs of Boneswords and Scything Talons. I've considered adding rending claws to the raveners instead, or TS to the genestealers.

Coming from a veteran Tau player that fields T4 Crisis Suits, Warriors are better in comparison.

Not only can you field nine of them, but you can grab some Venomthropes and, if needed, Gargoyles and use them as screens. Fielding them in fives makes them pretty good in close combat and won't draw attention to themselves unlike the Monsterous Creatures.

Synapse + Being able to use the Primes WS (I think) when he joins the brood is nothing to sneeze at also.

Don't forget that Warriors can Run and having extra synapse on the field doesn't hurt when you have Raveners running every which way.

I'd recommend staying away from the Reserve-lists. They're just not a viable option in an army, that completely lacks good guns. We excel in CC, mainly. If you can't drop down and get into CC, then whats the point?

While the normal Codex limits you to a 3+ on Turn 2 in lower point games, the Fandex fixes that little bit of bs and allows the stacking of Hive Commander. Pheromone Trail also applies, whether the Lictor is on the board or still in Reserve.

an army, that completely lacks good guns

I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree. You shouldn't be expecting to actually kill tanks outright with Tyranid weapons - rather, you just need to stun or shake them. Brainleech Devourer's are excellent for this, as are Heavy Venom Cannons on certain platforms. Coupled with the disgusting number of shots a brood of Devilgaunts put out, and I've been nothing but impressed with Tyranid shooting.

There's a few units in our ranges, that allows for a decent DS, such as the Doom. But my issue regarding these lists, is that you spend too many points on units that benefit the +reserve-roll, while not really getting THAT much in return.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it seems like you feel that we don't actually have any good Deepstriking units. Here's a little list of my personal favorites:

- Devilgaunts - love these guys

- Dakkafexes - Love these even more.

- Doom - Good enough for 130 points. Not great against mech lists, but he must be dealt with or he will mess some stuff up

In the end, though, I can't *force* you to like Reserve styled lists, or anything else. I'm just bouncing the ball back to you.

KplKeegan wrote:Coming from a veteran Tau player that fields T4 Crisis Suits, Warriors are better in comparison.

Not only can you field nine of them, but you can grab some Venomthropes and, if needed, Gargoyles and use them as screens. Fielding them in fives makes them pretty good in close combat and won't draw attention to themselves unlike the Monsterous Creatures.

Synapse + Being able to use the Primes WS (I think) when he joins the brood is nothing to sneeze at also.

Don't forget that Warriors can Run and having extra synapse on the field doesn't hurt when you have Raveners running every which way.

Do you mean that Warriors are better in comparison to Raveners? One thing to mention is that you can field 9 Raveners, too. I'm not sure if that changes your opinion, though.

Man, I really like the idea of Venomthropes, but I can't think of any way to protect them. 5+ cover with only two wounds seems like a gigantic bulls-eye to me!

Tangent wrote: Do you mean that Warriors are better in comparison to Raveners? One thing to mention is that you can field 9 Raveners, too. I'm not sure if that changes your opinion, though.

I was disagreeing with Billinator about playing with Warriors in general.

Tangent wrote:Man, I really like the idea of Venomthropes, but I can't think of any way to protect them. 5+ cover with only two wounds seems like a gigantic bulls-eye to me!

Not if there's alot of Hormagaunts, Warriors, and Monstrous Creatures running at them . The Venomthropes are there to cushion your wave from anything non-Template or Barrage.

You may lose them before you get there, but I garauntee they've done their job.

So, would you recommend Venomthropes at low points, or are they better at high points?

I actually just played a game against necrons with my venomthrope list. The trick is to attach 2 primes to the unit, to soak up S8/9 shots. Later, if they're still alive, they can top out of the unit and beat some fools.

Personally, I think venomthropes are only effective at 1750 and higher. At lower points, you can't really afford a good number of MCs.

Anyway, we played capture and control, pitched battle. After s couple of turns of annoying terrain shenanigans, I managed to get up in his face and swamp him with gaunts. The venomthropes actually survived the whole battle, eventually hopping into combat to help a a prime and carnifex deal with orikan in his ascended form. Overall, I'm very much enjoying the synergy they provide, and they're a very cool looking unit to boot

So, you mean take a unit of 3 Venomthropes or something and then attach 2 Tyranid Primes into the unit? For the better armor saves against strong weapons?

I just ran the Raveners for the first time tonight, and they did great! Really awesome. SUPER fast. I won't get too into details here, but here is a link to the thread concerning my army list, and I'll put a slightly more detailed post about it there, if you're interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401343.page;jsessionid=C2707A4CFC40CE0BD6D455831448F858

Tangent: yup, that's the idea.

I am glad you made them work Tangent. :-) But then spike spiegel alwasy was resourcefull. ;-)

On the venomthropes think of them like this: Your oponent's big guns will have to shoot you down and dead or you will runn him over. Prime targets being MC's and multi wound T4 units (warriors raveners etc.) However, MC's are hard to give cover to. Venomthropes fixes that.

so now he has to target the venomthropes first. The alternaive is the cheap gargoyle screen (witch also gives you cover, this is a 4+ cover and not 5+.)

Where venomthropes realy shine though are inside buildings (5+ all around) or in apocalypse where you can have many alite slots. (2 venomthropes can ruin all big guns days.)

Hmmm... so Venomthropes with attached ICs for wound allocation and better saves, keeping them (I'm assuming) just behind and between all of your other units for when they move outside of better (4+) cover. The only other question I have is... taking the Primes denies arguably better HQ choices, which kinda sucks. Does that matter? Or are the other HQ choices for Tyranids really not that good?

Primes are definitely my favorite HQ. Tyrants are definitely useful in certain builds, but primes are better in combat and also extremely clutch for soaking wounds and providing cover.

You deduced the venomthropes corretly.

Primes are good because of T5, IC, zynapse and kick ass melle equipment. (toxic sacks and lash whip/bonesword vs IC/MC's = nice.)

Primes also goes well with carnifexes as with 1 carnifex and one prime you do get coversave. (Or gargoylescreen.)

Tervigons are kick ass, no doubt about it, but for 50 points you do get them as troops and those 50 points are usualy used to give your hive guard cover/charge buffer.

The hive tyrant is really kick ass. Loads of good options. The lack of frag greandes though often means you need the lash whip/bonesword so no double gun. Doublegun is also not so good as one of your shooting attacks often will be paroxysem. Paroxysem is great. If you are starting to take the hive tyrand you do need eather old advercary or the + reserves + outflank. Good outflanking choises are warriors (a bad choise but it is a cheap multi task unit that has synapse) the tervigon (bad ass, but you do not get so mutch feel no pain) and homogaunts (small killing machines.)

Now with that being sead the hive tyrant just cost to mutch. You are paying how mutch for 4 wounds?! The good news is that for every tyrant guard you buy you are "only" paying 30 points per wound. (The same as a warrior exept vs big S8 blast templates.) However now you have a 300 point unit that you want in mellee, but not against the nastiest units in the game (hammer terminators etc) and yet you are shooting paroxysem against that very same unit meaning you are not charging anything else. The resoult is that you are paying 300+ points for 8 wounds of pure killing machine that is dragged down by the fact that it is trying to fill to many roles at the same time.

So yeah Primes are OK.

My feeling on venomthropes is: why bother? If you know what you're doing, everything on the table will have a 4+ cover save anyways, except maybe your front row of Termagants. I'm more excited about the dangerous terrain effect than the cover effect, and your opponent can always just kill the venomthrope(s) with shooting before assaulting.

As far as Raveners in higher points games, I think you really need to build your list around them. Against Grey Knights it's critical that you never assault outside of synapse range (because of force weapons), so your Raveners just become overpriced genestealers unless you take some synapse that can keep up with them (e.g. Flyrant or Parasite of Mortrex). They're great against IG or Tau (especially Tau), though.

1) How does assaulting outside of synapse range affect the usage of force weapons?

2) What about putting wings on a Hive Tyrant? I see him kinda like a Daemon Prince, sorta.

3) So, I looked through my codex and can't find the rule or special ability that makes Tervigons cheaper and/or troops choices, but I've heard about it before. Where is it?

As for the Primes, I definitely like how cheap they are!

Zynapse = shadow in the warp. A solid strategy against GK. It is however unlikely that you will meet a lott of halberds unles you meet terminators, in witch case the hammer would have instant killed you anyway. It is like pest and colera. Only the halberds are I6 and your raveners are I5 (asuming no terain.) If you are faceing GK just remember that they have few models. Your army (especialy tyranids) does not need to prepere for everything. Somematch ups will just be harder then others.

If you are giving the hive tyrant wings you need a gargoyle screen for him, and also you need ancient adversary because that is the only good reasong to rush him upfield withouth any bodyguards.

I think it is under the tervigon heading in the force organiser.

Good luck.

@Tangent
Primes have become more and more relevant over time. After the arrival of the GKs, it has become tougher to keep your MCs alive. Many tourney lists have forfeit most MCs.

Basically, the main reason you see people add in Prime(s) to their lists is the IC option. With their T5, they allow for overall better survivability through wound allocation. Besides that, they've got a fair amount of decent upgrades, which also can buff your list.

The Hive Tyrant is good. But he's either vulnerable or slow. It's tough to keep him alive. And he's very pricy for a 4 wound model. The way i like to run him is in a Garg-list with Parasite as 2nd HQ choice. Alternatively, you can run him on foot with guards, for better survivability. But however you look at it, you're bound to put alot of points into this one HQ-choice.

What the Prime(s) does for you is freeing up points - so to speak - which can be spent on faster units. And with the Primes, as has been mentioned several times, you can benefit from wound allocation on T4 units, or give a pair of Carnifexes cover saves, and, if you Dual-TL-Dev them, BS4.

Mandatory choices, however, is two of your Elite slots. You GOTTA have HGs here, and preferably 2x3. Anything besides that is pretty optional in your list. The only other thing here, really, is the synergy-part, which i believe i brought up earlier. You gotta have SOME idea of how your list is going to function. Raveners, for example, are all fast. But they also need support from the rest of the army. They also benefit from having a Prime attached to soak up an ID wound. What this basically cooks down to, is the amount you've got. You need redundancy to get the job done. You can't expect to have a single units of 6 'Stealers outflank and hope to chew up his entire army, if the rest of your army slacks behind, from being too heavy.

Two upgrades you also want to consider are AGs and TSs.
- AG boosts your Strength and Initiative. + Str allows you to even the strength for some units. + Ini allows you to gain the first strike in most cases.
- TS allows you to wound on a 4+. It also allows you to re-roll your to wound, if your Strength is equal to or higher.

If we bring this into practice, it means that a smaller unit, such as Gargoyles can:
- Hit first against MEQs.
- Auto to-wound on each 6 to-hit.
- re-roll to-wound against MEQs.
If you ran a Flyrant (with OA), you could even have them re-roll to-hit. But even without him, they greatly benefit from adding +2 pts to each model. Some might argue that they'd rather have them naked and field more models. I'd personally never leave home without the AG/TS. ymmv.

Tervigon, as Troop, are located under the Termagant entry. Also, a few hints for the Tervigons:
- always AG/TS. Every Termagant within 6" will benefit from these upgrades, and will hence roll like the Garg's against MEQs.
- Catalyst is your main choice. It can allow your large MC Trygons to get a 4+ against MLs and other ap3. Alternatively, FnP will greatly buff the survivability of any unit you cast it on.
- Onslaught is mostly taken in shooty lists. If you want to try out Dakkafexes (double TL-Devs), or T-fex'es, it's nice to have them both run AND shoot.
Anything besides these three upgrades, i consider a waste of points.

@NeutronPoison:

Venomthropes seem odd at first glance, but that 5+ Cover is the only cover MCs are liable to get. Unless you have some pretty crazy terrain, I don't see how you can reliably get a 4+ cover for MCs.

@Tangent:

Billinator pretty much hit it, but I just want to add that for 105 points, you won't find another unit so efficient in CC in the Tyranid book, perhaps any. He's just great.

Niiai wrote:Zynapse = shadow in the warp. A solid strategy against GK.

Ahh, right, right. The weird thing is: for all the complaining that Tyranid players do about GK, I sometimes forget that Shadow in the Warp even exists!

Billinator wrote:@Tangent
Primes have become more and more relevant over time. After the arrival of the GKs, it has become tougher to keep your MCs alive. Many tourney lists have forfeit most MCs.

Basically, the main reason you see people add in Prime(s) to their lists is the IC option. With their T5, they allow for overall better survivability through wound allocation. Besides that, they've got a fair amount of decent upgrades, which also can buff your list.

The Hive Tyrant is good. But he's either vulnerable or slow. It's tough to keep him alive. And he's very pricy for a 4 wound model. The way i like to run him is in a Garg-list with Parasite as 2nd HQ choice. Alternatively, you can run him on foot with guards, for better survivability. But however you look at it, you're bound to put alot of points into this one HQ-choice.

What the Prime(s) does for you is freeing up points - so to speak - which can be spent on faster units. And with the Primes, as has been mentioned several times, you can benefit from wound allocation on T4 units, or give a pair of Carnifexes cover saves, and, if you Dual-TL-Dev them, BS4.

Mandatory choices, however, is two of your Elite slots. You GOTTA have HGs here, and preferably 2x3. Anything besides that is pretty optional in your list. The only other thing here, really, is the synergy-part, which i believe i brought up earlier. You gotta have SOME idea of how your list is going to function. Raveners, for example, are all fast. But they also need support from the rest of the army. They also benefit from having a Prime attached to soak up an ID wound. What this basically cooks down to, is the amount you've got. You need redundancy to get the job done. You can't expect to have a single units of 6 'Stealers outflank and hope to chew up his entire army, if the rest of your army slacks behind, from being too heavy.

Two upgrades you also want to consider are AGs and TSs.
- AG boosts your Strength and Initiative. + Str allows you to even the strength for some units. + Ini allows you to gain the first strike in most cases.
- TS allows you to wound on a 4+. It also allows you to re-roll your to wound, if your Strength is equal to or higher.

If we bring this into practice, it means that a smaller unit, such as Gargoyles can:
- Hit first against MEQs.
- Auto to-wound on each 6 to-hit.
- re-roll to-wound against MEQs.
If you ran a Flyrant (with OA), you could even have them re-roll to-hit. But even without him, they greatly benefit from adding +2 pts to each model. Some might argue that they'd rather have them naked and field more models. I'd personally never leave home without the AG/TS. ymmv.

Tervigon, as Troop, are located under the Termagant entry. Also, a few hints for the Tervigons:
- always AG/TS. Every Termagant within 6" will benefit from these upgrades, and will hence roll like the Garg's against MEQs.
- Catalyst is your main choice. It can allow your large MC Trygons to get a 4+ against MLs and other ap3. Alternatively, FnP will greatly buff the survivability of any unit you cast it on.
- Onslaught is mostly taken in shooty lists. If you want to try out Dakkafexes (double TL-Devs), or T-fex'es, it's nice to have them both run AND shoot.
Anything besides these three upgrades, i consider a waste of points.

Man, this is a really great post - thanks a lot! I hate that Hive Guard are so good, because I find myself attracted to the idea of taking stuff like the Doom and Lictors. And I wish I didn't hate flying bases so much, because Gargoyles sound AWESOME.

odorofdeath wrote:

@Tangent:

Billinator pretty much hit it, but I just want to add that for 105 points, you won't find another unit so efficient in CC in the Tyranid book, perhaps any. He's just great.

So, 105 points on a Prime is 25 points worth of upgrades. Which ones might those be?

Regen and LW+BS imo

Yup. Just about the only place regeneration is viable. I don't see the need for toxin sacs, since he's already S5 base.

Definitely Boneswords of some type, and Regeneration is also a must. I would really say Toxins are necessary as well, absolutely divine upgrade and cheap as dirt. They make him into a first-class assault monster, especially for the cost.

The choice between BS/LW, and 2 BS is slightly harder to make. The Lash Whip is a fantastic upgrade, especially if you find yourself fighting alot of Grey Knights, Dark Eldar or assaulting into cover. However, if you attach him to a Venomthrope then you have the whips accounted for, and so you can afford to gamble with 2 Swords. As well as being cheaper, it makes him into a perfect assassin, particularly against monsters. Its fantastic to have something that can go toe-to-toe with a Dreadknight or Trygon, and rip its face off.

Therefore!

Regenerate, Toxin Sacs, and Boneswords are a requirement. Take 2 Swords if you use Venomthrope, and the Whip if you prefer him solo. Adrenal Glands can also be a consideration but are by no means necessary, and a Deathspitter is also an option.

It depends on yourplay style and what you use him for.

S5 is awsome, but I realy like venom sacks. (I have faced mefiston some times to many.) AG can be vs a lott of mech, but alas, CC should not be your mech awser. Regen is also viable, although it is better in theory then in pracsis.

Gargoyles are very good, but I once had gargoyles + paracite of motha vs 5 melle assault BA marines with a priest nearby. I charge trhough terain, the paracite got 4 hits on the noce, saved one of them and died. The gargoyles did nothing, failed the LS save as they where out of zynapse and got run down. 400 point down the drain. To my defence he had boxed in pretty good so it was hard to get the paracite in CC with only one as he could pile people behind the narrow coridor.

Niiai wrote: I charge trhough terain

Well there's your problem. Don't do that.

While slightly facetious, the mobility of gargoyles (plus the parasite) means you get to pick how and when you assault. Charging into terrain is only a good idea if you can overwhelm them, or you have lash whips. I mean, you charged into what - 15-20 attacks?

rugeld2: Killpoint mission.

He has 4 BA assault squad units in a las/plas predator, one assault squad in a lascannon landraider, and a librarian (cover save + hatred) in a bolter landraider with 3 hammer terminators, 3 LC terminators and a feel no pain/furius charge priest at 1750. That is a lott of big guns and they need to be silenced fast. Are you sugesting I should never charge his tanks because they where in terrain? That sounds like a terible tactic.

Note that charging tanks in terrain is a good idea, charging infantry in terrain is a bad idea, especially with fragile units like Gargs.

I'd argue that you essentially lost that match from list creation - unless you had some significant anti-tank, you were gonna get chomped. It's hard to say much more without seeing the board, etc. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm just saying not to write off Gargoyles because they got slaughtered in a method that *lots* of different units would get slaughtered.