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I've got a small brood of Raveners in my 500 point Tyranid list (which I haven't used yet), and until recently I had always thought that I wanted to deep strike them. Just reading the codex tonight I realized that they don't get the "no mishap" benefit during deep striking that a lot of other Tyranid units get. Makes me pretty sad...

So, how do you like your Raveners? Do you use them? With 2 sets of scything talons or 1 and rending claws? Any ranged weaponry on them? What about giving them good ranged weapons and then deep striking them? Or is that something that can be done with other troops, better, and cheaper? (Such as a termagaunt unit in a mycetic spore?)

In my experience, they aren't that great for DS as they're fragile and meant to be in assault, rather than shooting/waiting to assault.

I have run them deepstriking, and watched as they were shot to pieces in the following turn.

Alternatively, and the best way that i have found to run them, 2 sets of scything talons and running across the board has worked out for me. I've had luck with several fast units at one time: make them choose who to shoot and thereby ensure that one or more survive. They're so fragile, though, that you want to make sure there's some sort of cover for them. I personally use Venomthropes, which give good cover to the small bugs too.

I really like using Raveners to be honest. They're fun, scary, and as fast as I would like them to be. The threat radius is just so delightfully large...

I have a few Raveners. I don't use them often because they are so vulnerable to ID weapons.

I like to team them with a Trygon (Prime). The dual threat helps let something get through to the enemy.

The general rule with Tyranids is to offer so many dangerous targets that the enemy can't shoot them all in time.

I arm them with spinefists and deep strike them. They have cleared a lot of devastator squads just with shooting, them the survivors die to a lot of scything talon action...

A team of 4-6 Raveners with Rending claws is best. Dont deepstrike, cause they'll just get shot off, and giving them guns isnt really effective, since they work best in CC. Keep in mind they're Beasts, so they're pretty damn fast even if you want them to slog it behind hordes, and can be guaranteed to hit assault pretty early on.
The key is presenting the foe with other targets, like an advancing horde of termagants, or other squads of raveners. Think lictors or genestealers too. Hell, have a trygon deepstrike behind their lines and they wont even notice the raveners tearing up the survivors. Then the raveners wont seem as scary, and can be let off to do some damage.

Hmm, seems like there are a lot of different opinions! SoloFalcon, what do you think about the argument that different units do the same thing as Deep Striking, shooty Raveners, only cheaper?

I love the Ravener models and the speed and numbers of attacks per model but I feel they are not that good.
Their stat line is missing something, either Str 5 or Poison or Toughness 5 or wound allocation. As they stand now they are not that good:

5 with rending claws cost 175 points.
The output is 3rending + 7normal wound vs MEQ and 4 maybe 5 hits on a vehicle that has moved cruising speed (on the charge).
170 points of Gargoyles (AG,TS) has an output of 17wounds vs MEQ and 6 or 7 hits on a vehicle that has moved cruising speed(on the charge).
170 points of Genestealers (TS) has an output of 5rending + 10normal wounds vs MEQ and 5 hits on a vehicle that has moved cruising speed (on the charge).
I calculated on the charge as Tyranids should probably always be getting the charge of with these units.
Also against WS 5 Gargoyles and Genestealers remain the same were as Raveners get worse and against toughness 5 Gargoyles and Genestealers are again better than Raveners.

Combine that with the fact that if there is a fist in the unit Raveners are toast and will lose combat by a lot. 2 successful wounds from a power claw or fist (which seem to be in most squads) or force weapons mean that you are 6! wounds down!! It is impossible to win combat like that.

Finaly when it comes to movement which is the Raveners selling point they have move 6", fleet and assault 12 so a potential 24" threat range. Genestealers have identical movement and only 6" assault range but they have infiltrate and outflank flexibility. Gargoyles move 12" and assault 6" but are probably faster than the Raveners as they dont lose movement through terrain and will run in the turns prior to assault (so 12"+d6)

Though I want to play them I can't think of any advantage they have over similar points of Gargoyles or Genestealers

It sort of depends on what you wanne fight.

Raveners are cool and good. However so are tervigons and genestealers.

6 ravners (with rending) cost the same as a terygon with AG.

And there goes about 2 genestealers on a ravener so you can do the math:

1 Trygon with AG
6 Raveners with RC
12 Genestealers

This is of course if you want to run acros the board and kill things. Not deep striking. What is best depends in the rest of your list and your AV 14 killing kapasety.

I think they need backup, and some sort of ranged attack to put some hurt on before cc. They also seem more of a flank unit. Use them to outflank and either spread the other guy out to divide and conquer, or move him towards your more beefy stuff. But by themselves they get crushed. Perhaps a unit of raveners with some horms and perhaps some stealers would function well together....

Personally never really used em. I converted by raveners into shrikes by adding wings and Flying base, and re arranging the tails.

What ARE shrikes, anyway? They have an army roster entry in the back but no detailed entry in the beginning like every other unit.

So, sell me on rending... it doesn't seem that good to me, honestly. It's only a 16% chance for the attack to function as a power weapon.

Quick additional question - if a model with poisoned attacks (4+) and strength 4 scores a hit on a model with toughness 3, does that model need to roll a 3+ to wound (because of the ratio of strength to toughness) or a 4+ (because of the poison)?

Shrikes are a last ditch effort to get synapse up and forward. They are more expensive then ravagers and only ad synapse.

When you play nids you need rending. You need to ignore armour, and the MC's are to expensive to let you have an all MC army.

It is 4+ with the poison, even if you normaly wound on 3+. However, you do get a reroll so the % are better. And if you have rending it is even better as it is 32%chance to get rending. (Often found on genestealers.)

Tangent wrote:What ARE shrikes, anyway? They have an army roster entry in the back but no detailed entry in the beginning like every other unit.

Look under the Warrior description.

They're winged warriors.

Ahhhhhhh, THERE they are! Ok, I see now. Well, as for WYSIWYG, I would hate to put rending claws on my Raveners and then decide I don't want them.

Yeah, but why would you take raveners over other units after my analysis? How do you get something more from them?

Well, for one thing, I bought the models. For another, I literally don't have even a single extra Tyranid model anywhere in my possession, which means I have nothing to replace them with if I remove them from my 500 point list. I could increase the equipment on the guys I already have, I guess...

But at the same time, I like how fast they are. I also already have a unit of Genestealers, and think they may work well together in low point games.

And another thing is that my current opponents are Tau, IG, and Dark Eldar, so no MEQs there. I don't know how your analysis breaks down in this case.

Also, by your analysis, it seems that Gargoyles are better than Genestealers, but few debate the usefulness of Genestealers in certain situations. I know the issue goes deeper than that, but still.

One final question: if a model with 3 wounds fights a model with a powerfist, and the PF model does only one wound but kills the 3-wound-model with ID... at the end of combat, does that count as having done 3 wounds, or just 1? (For the purposes of determining who won combat.)

3

I know Hulksmash is deeply in love with these guys, and i've heard others use them with great success aswell.

I haven't played around with them myself too much, so i can't argue that well. But i think that it's a matter of being selective about your fights, and use your brain aswell (the underused thing in your elbow, i think?).
- The list seems important as well. With raveners, syngery is important. If you run a slow list, and add these guys, you can't expect them to run up there, and reak havoc all by themselves. But with a good screen they might just perform!

I believe hulk spoke about setting the opponent up against a great amount of threats from all around. Raveners /w rendings, infiltrating/outflanking 'stealers /w toxin, AG/TS gargs, Hormagaunt screen, Prime and Parasite (and i believe he even uses Lictors... Oh, what a hassle!).
- The key-factor here, i believe, it that all of your choices, depending on deployment, grants most of your your army assaults in turn 2 & turn 3 respectively.

I must say, that i'm pretty much tempted myself towards such a list. I've been such a sucker for Gargs + Parasite, ever since i tried them out for the first time. They just swooped in there and stole away my little evil heart (the other elbow, i believe?).

rigeld2 wrote:3

Dang, that sucks.

Billinator wrote:I know Hulksmash is deeply in love with these guys, and i've heard others use them with great success aswell.

I haven't played around with them myself too much, so i can't argue that well. But i think that it's a matter of being selective about your fights, and use your brain aswell (the underused thing in your elbow, i think?).
- The list seems important as well. With raveners, syngery is important. If you run a slow list, and add these guys, you can't expect them to run up there, and reak havoc all by themselves. But with a good screen they might just perform!

I believe hulk spoke about setting the opponent up against a great amount of threats from all around. Raveners /w rendings, infiltrating/outflanking 'stealers /w toxin, AG/TS gargs, Hormagaunt screen, Prime and Parasite (and i believe he even uses Lictors... Oh, what a hassle!).
- The key-factor here, i believe, it that all of your choices, depending on deployment, grants most of your your army assaults in turn 2 & turn 3 respectively.

I must say, that i'm pretty much tempted myself towards such a list. I've been such a sucker for Gargs + Parasite, ever since i tried them out for the first time. They just swooped in there and stole away my little evil heart (the other elbow, i believe?).

This actually sounds REALLY similar to a list idea that I've had for awhile. I really, really like the idea of having units ALL OVER the board that come at the enemy from a lot of different directions throughout the entire game. Really give the enemy player the feeling of being in Starship Troopers and defending on multiple fronts. I was just looking at Lictors last night, though I have no idea how good they are.

I prefer my Raveners to force as many armor saves on my targets as possible. Fielding six with regular scything talons or even three (if that's possibly anymore, I haven't looked at my Nid Codex in ages) Rending Claws will more often force alot of saves on the unit they charge.

The squads I usually aim for are Elite troops (like Sternguard) and other fast attack troops (like Assault Marines or Storm Boyz). If I can force them to take as many armor saves as possible it usually works out where I kill enough to win combat, but not enough to wipe them out.

The best screen for these critters are Gargoyles or Hormagaunts, but be sure there's enough synapse around just so Raveners don't lose their focus.

KplKeegan wrote:I prefer my Raveners to force as many armor saves on my targets as possible. Fielding six with regular scything talons or even three (if that's possibly anymore, I haven't looked at my Nid Codex in ages) Rending Claws will more often force alot of saves on the unit they charge.

I don't understand. I thought rending removed the possibility for an armor save if you roll a 6 to wound?

Scything tallons only allow full reroll.

Rending raveners allows reroll on 1's (meaning you only miss on 2's) and have rending on a 6 to wound.

My issue with raveners is that until your troop units are maxed out, there is no need for them. Genestealers are quite a bit better, and trade 6 inches of assault distance for infiltrate. I prefer infiltrate, as you can outflank, and outflank is superior to deepstrike. Also, beasts dont know how to climb, so the genestealers are required anyway if multilevel ruins are in play.

Now, after your troops are filled (elites should always always be filled) you really start comparing raveners to their larger cousins trygons to finish out your list. Here, you get volume of attacks and wounds on the raveners, or you get quality attack and wounds on the trygon while losing 6 inches of assault. If you dont need the ability to pen av10 rear in combat, volume of attacks and wounds is handled better by gargoyles.

So basically raveners are that compromise unit between horde gargoyles and elite trygons. Most people hate compromise, because horde specialist and elite specialists are better in their respective fields. Other people like having lots of tactical options, or like to have units that can be useful versus almost anything.

That's a pretty good assessment, Devian.

So, help me out with the math concerning scything talons and rending claws. With a brood of 3 Raveners, what is most likely to cause more wounds? Two pairs of scything talons that allow you to reroll all misses to hit but do absolutely nothing to armor saves, or one pair of scything talons and one pair of rending claws that only allow you to reroll 1s but auto-wound with no armor saves allowed on 6s to wound? I'm not so good with statistics.

Well Tangent if you want to cause wounds without needing to modify armor saves, then you would be running gargoyles. So ravs would always have rending claws hehe.

Lol, I guess I see what you mean, but I guess I'm looking for more math. As in, is it statistically better to reroll everything under a 4 with no armor mod or only reroll 1s but negate armor with a following 6? I can't even tell if that makes sense.

Well whats your target?

Raveners have WS 5 if I recall correctly so you will usualy hit on 3+. Very little has over WS 4. Vs things that has WS 5+ you really want rending.

The jevel with rending is that you go from glancing to penetrating AV 10 in a 6 in CC. Also, you can actualy dos omething about dreadnoughts who's counter charge would be devestating othervice.

However, I suppose rerolling all dice is good against tanks as well.

I have 12 raveners. I love their fluff, design, pretty much the whole idea of mini trygons is awesome.

However, whenever I use them, they seem to come up a little short. Personally, I think they should come with S5, as Rending is just not enough against MEQ. Against GEQ they're better, but still a bit overcosted and underpowered.

DevianID wrote:Well whats your target?

Well, let's assume 3 Raveners with 15 total attacks on the charge (since that's what I've got!). They're WS 5 (as Niiai said) and S 4. Let's assume they're against an MEQ, with WS 4 and T 4. So, the Ravener needs a 3+ to hit, a 4+ to wound, and the MEQ has a 3+ armor save from power armor.

With two sets of scything talons, the Raveners reroll 1s and 2s to hit (a third of their total attacks). They then wound 50% of their hits (at 4+). The MEQs then make two thirds of their armor saves (at 3+).

So, with 15 attacks, the Raveners will initially hit 10 of them. Out of the remaining 5 rerolls, they should hit 3 more, for a total of 13 hits. 6 of those hits will be wounds (if we round down). The MEQs should save 4 of those wounds. Two wounds scored, total.

With the same situation but with only one set of scything talons (reroll 1s to hit) but the addition of rending claws, we have...

15 attacks. 10 initial hits. With benefit of the stats, 3 of those initial 15 dice would be 1s, so rerolling three 1s will hit 2. This gives 12 hits, only one less than before (with the benefit of the doubt on statistics). Again, 6 of those hits will be wounds, 2 of which will NOT allow armor saves. Out of 4 armor saves rolled, the MEQs should save 2, probably 3. Assuming they make 3 armor saves, that means only one wound goes through. Combine that with the 2 from rending is 3 total wounds.

So, assuming all of my confusing math is right, Rending Claws + Scything Talons score more wounds statistically than two pairs of Scything Talons against MEQ. If the armor save of the target unit is even ONE POINT worse (at 4+), then two pairs of Scything Talons score equal wounds. If the armor save of the target is decreased further to 5+, two sets of Scything Talons are better.

Does all of this sound right? For those of you more experienced than I, does this match with your experiences?

Odor - What do you normally use instead of Raveners when you choose not to use them?

I believe that wrapping your mind around the Tyranids, is wrapping your mind around, that there'll always be certain vulnerabilities. Whether you choose a list with a high model-count, or you prefeer a list packed with T6 wounds, you're bound to face the fact, that your list is vulnerable.

Raveners, while not sharing the sturdy characteristics, like the MCs, offers the list an entirely different aspect. Of course, one could argue, if they're worth it with the high probability of having them ID'ed. But reversely, you're able to close in much, much faster, than the Trygon can.

I do, however, believe that a Ravener-heavy list requires a different setup. You're more or less bound to pack a great deal of turn 2-3 assaulties in your list. The Raveners don't stand their ground alone. Their low toughness just doesn't allow it. But it doesn't mean, that there isn't a way around these weaknesses. The obvious answer here, of course, is having synergy. If your list doesn't "support" these units, you can't expect them to perform very well.

Fact is that there is no set of rules. There's the cookie-cutters. And these are called such, because they're widely known to perform well. They get the job done. But they don't say, that there's no other way of doing things. Just that they're known for delivering great results.

The best way of approaching the Tyranids, is to try and fill the gaps, that each unit leaves. If there's alot of small units, you're vulnerable to blast weapons, flamers and the like. If you there's alot of T6, you're vulnerable to AV-like weaponry. If you're all out on the T4 medium-sized models, you're vulnerable to anything that can ID. But with the right synergy, you're able to fill these gaps, by having your units support each other.