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Fast Attack: Tau Pathfinders - an infantry unit that can't move and fire their primary special weapons at the same time. Their purpose is to take a position with a good field of fire early in the game and stay there the rest of the game.

How much more opposite of Fast Attack can you get from a unit that isn't supposed to move?

I honestly don't know the codices other than my own well enough to comment, but I did just want to chime in a bit on all the hate for roughriders I'm seeing here. I definitely disagree that they're the the worst FA choice in the whole game or even in the IG.

They do have to be used properly and kept out of line of fire until they can charge. But with a 24" threat range I haven't found that too difficult -- I basically need to protect them for only one turn and then with the "move, move, move" order chances are good that they'll get that 24" charge.

Andilus, I did say non-special character for my HQ. Book to Book, most HQs add something for a force--even if what they add is a cheap model to fulfill HQ requirements. What does a brother captain add to GK though?

As for pyrovores, they do have a purpose--metagame builds. As a heavy flamer, depending on your opponent the pyrovore could be death incarnate. While not great, they are the only template in the elite slot, and one of the cheapest templates in the nid book.

Meanwhile, a unit like beasts of nurgle really do nothing of value for the FOC of daemons, and dont help out the metagame any for the daemon side.

Jefffar, I actually kinda like Pathfinders. Scout is a really useful rule, their devil fish makes deepstriking a lot safer, and putting 4 markerlight hits on any enemy unit makes quite a lot of combo's possible. Plus they are not that expensive, and do have some weapon options.

DevianID wrote:Nurglings, as mentioned, are great tarpits for their points. Also, they combo very well with the tallyman. You can do much worse than Nurglings... if scoring were so important then elite/fast/heavy would all be worthless.

Mandrakes are bad, but still have that s4 ap4 shooting, so could potentially have a place. Like if your opponent runs necron warriors hehehe, he will curse your Mandrakes all day long.

As an aside, I thought the hearald of nurgle was really really good in tallyman lists?

Heralds of Nurgle are terrible in any list, period. Slow and purposeful, T5, and only 2 wounds (3 wounds on a mount). Low str, they just have a poisoned wep.... they add NOTHING to a nurgle force.

Nurglings are OK in Epidemus lists, but for $20 for 3 bases, not scoring, they're still swarms, they have to DS in, non-scoring troops.... They're terrible. They can tarpit ok, but nothing spectacular.

Mandrakes cannot shoot until they kill a non0vehicle unit, so they come in, stand around, normally get blown up due to horrible saves, and thats it. Even as a dedicated assault unit wyches are far superior (and score)


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Andilus Greatsword wrote:A lot of these lists are really bad... GK Brother Captains are the worst HQ in the game? Umm...

This is the definitive list right here:
HQ: Aun'va. Duh.
Elites: Pyrovore
Troops: Ripper Swarms
Fast Attack: Chaos Spawn or Sky-slasher Swarms
Heavy Support: Deathstrike Missile Launcher, Flash Gitz, Leman Russ Punisher

Good list! Minus the punisher; they're a lot of fun with Pask in one. They'll chew through MC's lol

DevianID wrote:Andilus, I did say non-special character for my HQ. Book to Book, most HQs add something for a force--even if what they add is a cheap model to fulfill HQ requirements. What does a brother captain add to GK though?

Is the brotherhood champion even worse?

As for pyrovores, they do have a purpose--metagame builds. As a heavy flamer, depending on your opponent the pyrovore could be death incarnate. While not great, they are the only template in the elite slot, and one of the cheapest templates in the nid book.
Meanwhile, a unit like beasts of nurgle really do nothing of value for the FOC of daemons, and dont help out the metagame any for the daemon side.

I'll give you that. One of the reasons pyrovores are so epically bad isn't how bad they are, but how good/essential the remaining elites choices are for nids.

Jefffar, I actually kinda like Pathfinders. Scout is a really useful rule, their devil fish makes deepstriking a lot safer, and putting 4 markerlight hits on any enemy unit makes quite a lot of combo's possible. Plus they are not that expensive, and do have some weapon options.

And Tau is an old book, before "elite, but still essential" infantry options became troops in a lot of codices (see IG veterans, GK termies, BA assault marines, Wyches, Immortals). Fast attack made sense, particulalry in the original tau book when there were no other serious FA choices (barring hounds and drones), and the heavy and elites sections were already full.

You can't even argue that pathfinders are the most misplaced Fast Attack (armored sentinels?).

The brotherhood champion sees play thanks to not wearing termie armor, and is still cheaper than a Brother cap. Plus he has some useful metagame rules with sacrifice and the stances.

As for the nurgle herald, he gets Nurgle based breath to help drive the tally, is cheap, and goes with a unit. If taking the tallyman did not also let you take him as well with the 2 for 1, then I agree he would be pretty useless. But granting cloud and breath to a unit, with optional icon, makes a unit like nurglings substantially better.

Though, if your not using the tallyman, then yeah he stinks.

DevianID wrote:As for pyrovores, they do have a purpose--metagame builds. As a heavy flamer, depending on your opponent the pyrovore could be death incarnate. While not great, they are the only template in the elite slot, and one of the cheapest templates in the nid book.

Biovores do it better. Pyrovores:

Explode on ID.
Are short ranged.
Easy to kill.
Relatively expensive - 45 points for a heavy flamer?
A CC ability (Acid Maw) on a pathetic CC model? (T4, W2, I1, A1)
The most crowded slot in the Tyranid codex.

There's no reason - ever - to take Pyrovores. Except for the model - the model itself is cool... but the stats are horrendous.

DevianID wrote:Andilus, I did say non-special character for my HQ. Book to Book, most HQs add something for a force--even if what they add is a cheap model to fulfill HQ requirements. What does a brother captain add to GK though?

But are they the worst non-special HQ in the game? That is the question here. I'd still consider Ethereals as one of the worst.

DevianID wrote:As for pyrovores, they do have a purpose--metagame builds. As a heavy flamer, depending on your opponent the pyrovore could be death incarnate. While not great, they are the only template in the elite slot, and one of the cheapest templates in the nid book.

Not really, even in a footslogger list they don't have a lot of purpose - they die easy, they waste Elites slots and they provide mediocre anti-infantry in an army that is spoiled with anti-infantry abilities.

I think Devian's point is that, no matter how bizarre, there is still a reason to take the pyrovore. You cannot find any reason at all to take the beast of nurgle.

I just think that a unit that isn't fast and doesn't attack is by default a poor Fast Attack choice. I didn't say they weren't useful, just that for what they are (Commandos who designate targets from a hidden location) Fast Attack is a little silly.

Troops or Elite they would make sense. Heck, even an HQ could make sense.

DevianID wrote:The brotherhood champion sees play thanks to not wearing termie armor, and is still cheaper than a Brother cap. Plus he has some useful metagame rules with sacrifice and the stances.

As for the nurgle herald, he gets Nurgle based breath to help drive the tally, is cheap, and goes with a unit. If taking the tallyman did not also let you take him as well with the 2 for 1, then I agree he would be pretty useless. But granting cloud and breath to a unit, with optional icon, makes a unit like nurglings substantially better.

Though, if your not using the tallyman, then yeah he stinks.

So you can give a unit of PB's grenades or use a breath weapon... The BW makes him an 80 point model. Not to mention, he can ONLY join a unit of PB's. PB's, even in a tallyman list, aren't that killy, and very slow. As others said, their only merit is camping objectives. And with only 3 attacks, hes pretty meh.

Also, you can't join IC's to swarms. Nurglings are OK at best in Epidemus lists; but for a general list, those units mentioned are useless.

The point is in a Dex like Daemons where a lot of units are cruddy those mentioned take the cake.

HQ: Without a doubt, Tau Ethereals (Barring Aun'shi) and that abysmal, wheel-chair bound tart, Aun'Va.
Elites: Ratlings and Ogryns; Ratling for their uses, Ogryns for their Terminator-esque points cost.
Troops: Kroot.
Fast Attack: Piranhas. Absolutely terrible for their points cost and weapon loadouts.
Heavy Support: The Medusa and Basilisk. Supposed artillery but can hardly barrage in regular games. Medusa cant even fire indirectly yet is considered artillery...

KplKeegan wrote:Medusa cant even fire indirectly yet is considered artillery...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3
That couldn't either, but it's artillery. Artillery is just another name for "really big gun"

HQ: Ethereals and Aun'Va.
Elite: Pyrovores or Ogryns.
Troops: Fire Warriors or Conscripts.
Fast Attack: Swooping Hawks.
Heavy Support: Support Weapon Batteries.

Mustela wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:HQ: Space Pope
Elite: Pyrovores
Troops: unsure - Rippers are pretty crap, but not sure if there's worse, Summon Daemons?, some people like them, but Fire Warriors can't really beat any thing besides Grots, which are useful in their own way.
Fast Attack: SM Vanguard Vets
Heavy Support: unsure

Added some.

Last I checked My firewarriros routinely table assault armies. Because we can shoot your asses turn one and if we take out your mobility (all those tasty trucks) you're stuck foot slogging.

HQ Ethereal
Elites: Terminators (storm bolter more than Thunder Hammer...but in either case you're paying a premium for a marine with a 2+ save an a crap gun or no gun at all, in which case you gotta buy another 250pts worth of vehicle that can be popped by 80pts of broadside)
Troops: Kroot
Fast Attack: Vespid
Heavy Support: TIE between sky ray and sniper drones

these are just the armies I play though...I know pyrovores suck balls

swap out Pyrovore for Beast of Nurgle and I agree.

Why the hate on kroot and etherals? A 32 man fearless kroot squad is quite good, especially since tau normally are bad in cc!

272 points, you get 36 ws4/s4 init5 attacks, 60 ws4/s4 init 3 attacks, and 4 ws4/s5 init 3 attacks. 100 attacks total on the charge! Plus you are fearless, and your LD8 tau units reroll morale thanks to the 'terrible' ethereal, who only cost you 60 points!!!

I actually would use the ethereal JUST for the ability to reroll morale, seeing as tau leadership is so bad. Fearless on a squad is basically gravy.

Zid, fair enough points about the herald of nurgle. If he cant join to the nurglings, only to plague bearers, then your only buying him for breath as plagues get everything else he really offers already. I suppose Daemons would take a brother captain (if allowed) before they took heralds of nurgle.

The problem is that an ethereal is an independent chararcter that can be picked out in assault.

And a dead ethereal requires every unit to take a morale check...

Yeah, dead ethereals may as well cause fade out, When they die, so does your hope of winning.

Thank you voicer of reason.
Ripper swarms are a really tough sale compared to other troops from any dex. they just suck. also, the chaos spawn pretty much set the bar when it comes to major suckidge for the points.
The leman russ punisher thouugh... I am going to say no on this one. It can shoot about thirty shots per turn and when you run the math hammer on it, its about the best infantry killer in the game. These things definatly do not suck.

sennacherib wrote:The leman russ punisher thouugh... I am going to say no on this one. It can shoot about thirty shots per turn and when you run the math hammer on it, its about the best infantry killer in the game. These things definatly do not suck.

You forgot the Massive 24" range!
Sorry, i really do think they suck. a blob could do a better job and not get killed by 1 krak missle.

HQ Space Pope: Do have to list reasons for this guy?
Elites: Fiends, Seekers are better and cheaper
Troops: Kroot: They just suck......so much.
Fast Attack: Furies, they can't do anything but act as a expensive screening unit
Heavy Support: Carnifex, it's OK but has lost its touch.

Honrable mentions.
Chaos Drednought: Not the worst but I hate the fire frenzy rule.
Possessed. Too random.
Rubric Marines: Slow, expensive, fragile, I mean AP3 bolters arent that good.
Spawn: Only good when it's your enemies super hero, it has no real use except for screening or distraction.

Math-hammer on a punisher? Ok, shooting at Orks, you have 20 shots. At BS3, half of those hit. Strength 5, you need 3s, so 2/3rds go through (I'll be generous and say 7). They'll save a third on their 5+ (I think? If they have a guy with a KFF they do, anyway). SO 5 die. Hardly en masse infantry killing, especially considering that that's at 24 inches. Punishers suck

Ah. no necrons on who is the worst. makes me happy

DevianID wrote:Why the hate on kroot and etherals? A 32 man fearless kroot squad is quite good, especially since tau normally are bad in cc!

272 points, you get 36 ws4/s4 init5 attacks, 60 ws4/s4 init 3 attacks, and 4 ws4/s5 init 3 attacks. 100 attacks total on the charge! Plus you are fearless, and your LD8 tau units reroll morale thanks to the 'terrible' ethereal, who only cost you 60 points!!!

I actually would use the ethereal JUST for the ability to reroll morale, seeing as tau leadership is so bad. Fearless on a squad is basically gravy.

Zid, fair enough points about the herald of nurgle. If he cant join to the nurglings, only to plague bearers, then your only buying him for breath as plagues get everything else he really offers already. I suppose Daemons would take a brother captain (if allowed) before they took heralds of nurgle.

Ethereals only make Tau units fearless, not Kroot.

Etherals make Tau not mercenaries fearless and make them good at Close Combat, which they suck at, why give something with poor cc abbilities a cc bonus?

sennacherib wrote:The leman russ punisher thouugh... I am going to say no on this one. It can shoot about thirty shots per turn and when you run the math hammer on it, its about the best infantry killer in the game. These things definatly do not suck.

No, it does suck, especially because you could be taking a Demolisher instead.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

sennacherib wrote:The leman russ punisher thouugh... I am going to say no on this one. It can shoot about thirty shots per turn and when you run the math hammer on it, its about the best infantry killer in the game. These things definatly do not suck.

No, it does suck, especially because you could be taking a Demolisher instead.

And for less....

HQ-Nork Deddog
Elites-Ogryns
Troops-Conscripts
Fast Attack-Rough Riders
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Eradicator

If I had to sub anything it would be Storm Troopers (yup, GW made that TWO words) for the Ogryns, or the Deathstrike for the Eradicator.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

sennacherib wrote:The leman russ punisher thouugh... I am going to say no on this one. It can shoot about thirty shots per turn and when you run the math hammer on it, its about the best infantry killer in the game. These things definatly do not suck.

No, it does suck, especially because you could be taking a Demolisher instead.

It's only 20 shots aswell.. battlecannon and demo outpreform and can kill tanks as well.