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Draigo wrote:I don't iunderstand the infatuation with the stormlord.. I keep seein him in tons of lists that don't have the solar pulse. I spose it may be good in a list that uses tons of scarabs but otherwise I don't see the appeal.

Well honestly Solar Pulses aren't a good choice in a list with him in it. But yeah, I agree, I'm not a big fan of Imotekh either. Only special character that honestly interests me is Anrakyr.

Page 9 of the small rule book clearly says there are turns. It also says that the turn is broke down into phases. So we have the following.

Game Turn
3 Phases.

So the rules says at the beginning of the turn. This is before Beginning of the Movement Phase. It's pretty clear how this works.

I'm not going to argue with someone that says you can't roll at the beginning of your movement phase because the turn has already passed. Please don't tell me people will not argue this because they will.

No, the game turn is broken down into 3 phases; the start of the movement phase IS the start of the turn, by definition. Otherwise you are saying there is a phase BEFORE the movement phase...which doesnt exist.

MJThurston wrote:Page 9 of the small rule book clearly says there are turns. It also says that the turn is broke down into phases. So we have the following.

Player Turn3 Phases.

I fixed you quote.

Anywho check the box that spells out the turn. What's the first thing there at the top of the list?

......


......



wait for it


......


......


Movement Phase!




Oh look! The movement phase IS the beginning of the turn. Wow how strange is that is that?

The power says at the start of the turn.

So as per RAW you roll at the start of the turn.

The next thing that happens is ....wait for it......


At the beginning of the movement phase.

If the rule has said at the beginning of the movement phase you roll a d6 then you'd have a point. It doesn't. It says at the start of the turn which is before the movement phase.

Turn 1.
Player 1's movement phase.
Player 1's shooting phase.
Player 1's assault phase.

Player 2's movement phase.
Player 2's shooting phase.
Player 2's assault phase.

Turn 2 - You roll your d6
Player 1's .........

This roll happens between the Turn and the Beginning of the Movement phase.

I am not a fan as yet of the Storm Lord. Two Solar pulses give you essentially the same effect can be used during your Oppenants turn and are far cheaper with no roll.

MJ - no, you are now simply making things up.

There is no start of turn that is different from the start of the movement phase. They are th same. Exactly the same.

They are not the same thing.

Do you say.."ok it's turn 2"

Or do you say.."ok it's Start of the Movement Phase of Turn 2."

No you say it's Turn 2.

....which is also the start of the movement phase. They are identical. You are making up a new phase, called start of turn, when no such phase exists.

LOL.
It's not made up.

Tell me what is the start of the turn?

At the start of the turn.
At the beginning of the movement phase.

Which one is it and don't tell me they are the same thing because in game rules they are not.

Do you roll for scarabs first or do you roll for the Darkness to stay?

You roll for the Darkness because it's at the start of the turn and before Beginning of the movement phase.

Troll

MJThurston wrote:Which one is it and don't tell me they are the same thing because in game rules they are not.

You still haven't cited the rule that says that.

"Which one is it and don't tell me they are the same thing because in game rules they are not. "

So, page and paragraph please. Oh wait, that doesnt exist

Start of turn and start of movement phase are congruent in game-time, by definition

There is a rule that says "In a turn there are 3 phases". It does not say that the Start of the turn is a phase.

We have two rules here that bring light to this.

1. Start of the Turn

2. At the beginning of the movement phase.

Now lets break this down. If you are to assume the Start of the turn is at the beginning of the movement phase then we'd have this in the rule for the roll on Darkness.

"At the beginning of the Necrons movement phase roll a d6 to see if the Darkness continues."

It does not say that. It says "At the beginning of the turn. This means that when you say turn it happens and it happens before any rule that says "At the beginning of the movement phase."

If you are arguing that they are the same thing then you are wrong because "At the beginning of the movement phase is a rule that is in effect."

Let me go even further. When you have random game length do you roll at the end of the turn or at the end of the assault phase. It clearly says at the end of the turn and therefor is after the assault phase has completed.

None of that is actually a rule.

The start of tue turn us ALSO thr start of the movement phase. If yiuvsay otherwise, you have just creatsd a new phase, which is explicitly denied by the rulss


Automatically Appended Next Post:
None of that is actually a rule.

The start of tue turn us ALSO thr start of the movement phase. If yiuvsay otherwise, you have just creatsd a new phase, which is explicitly denied by the rulss

Lets take a step back.

Ok first page of the rule book on turns.

It clearly says a turn is make up of two player turns which consist of 3 phases.

So the rules state there is a turn, it has two player turns and each of the player turns has 3 phases.

So when a rule says roll at the start of the turn that is before player 1 even starts his turn.

I hope that makes it very clear when this roll is made and that the Cryptek does not get to reroll that d6.

MJThurston wrote:Lets take a step back.

Ok first page of the rule book on turns.

It clearly says a turn is make up of two player turns which consist of 3 phases.

So the rules state there is a turn, it has two player turns and each of the player turns has 3 phases.

So when a rule says roll at the start of the turn that is before player 1 even starts his turn.

I hope that makes it very clear when this roll is made and that the Cryptek does not get to reroll that d6.

Hard to belive that this right here ^^ is always so heavily debated..

MJThurston wrote:It clearly says a turn is make up of two player turns which consist of 3 phases.

Correct. 100% accurate statement.

So the rules state there is a turn, it has two player turns and each of the player turns has 3 phases.

Repeating what you just said, but okay.

So when a rule says roll at the start of the turn that is before player 1 even starts his turn.

Stop. Where do you get this? There's no difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase.
Yes, one player turn encompasses 3 phases, the first of which is movement.
But there's nothing, anywhere, in the rules that asserts that there's a "start of the turn" time period separate from the start of the movement phase.

I hope that makes it very clear when this roll is made and that the Cryptek does not get to reroll that d6.

I agree that the Cryptek doesn't get to re-roll, but for a different reason.

MJThurston wrote:So when a rule says roll at the start of the turn that is before player 1 even starts his turn.

Actually "start of the turn" is "start of the player turn." Whenever the word "turn" is used it means player turn unless otherwise noted.

The power must be rolled at the beginning of Turn 2, no matter who's turn it is.

As for how turns go please see the rule book. I put what it says and it breaks the turn down.

Any power that has turn in it must say what turn. Either any player turn or turn. If the later is used then it is done at the beginning of the turn. ie Turn 2.

MJ, that is incorrect. If the word turn is used it defaults to player turn.

MJ - I suggest, before posting more incorrect concepts and rules, you actually read the BRB and the FAQs one more time

Page 9 defines that "turn" == "player turn", unless they specify game turn

The BRB FAQ reiterates this for people who missed page 9

Finally, you still have absolutely no rule, absolutely nothing anywhere, that says there is a period of game time before the movement phase begins. That is becuase there isnt one

The start of the turn, and the start of the movement phase, re exactly congruent in game time

Draigo wrote:I don't iunderstand the infatuation with the stormlord.. I keep seein him in tons of lists that don't have the solar pulse. I spose it may be good in a list that uses tons of scarabs but otherwise I don't see the appeal.

If you don"t see the appeal you haven't played the new dex much. The new crons excel within the 12''-24'' bubble. It is really hard to get there without getting shot off the board unless you have some type of help. Given the released models, your best ways are via monolith, ghost ark, and night fighting. Great thing is that night fighting only helps both of the other strategies as well.

Holy crap, who cares about what part of the turn it happens in?

The real debate is if you're allowed to use the re-roll on an ability that is 'happening' with or without the character it is associated with.

The Necron army that takes Imotehk now has the Stormlord ability in place. Sort of like when you take Logan Grimnar, all Wolf Guard become scoring. That is not a 'Logan Grimnar' rule per se - it becomes an army rule. When Logan dies, Wolf Guard don't suddenly stop becoming scoring.

This is exactly the same. The Stormlord bestows the Storm unto the army itself. You (the player) roll a D6 to see if Night Fighting continues. The Cryptek's re-roll cannot affect a roll that the unit itself is not taking part in. The Stormlord himself has nothing to do with the actual Night Fighting rules once they're in place, just like Logan himself has nothing to do with the Wolf Guard units being scoring once they are.

We know, that was aready sorted - attempting to claim the Stormlord is the one rolling requires you to entirely ignore the powers wording, ENTIRELY, as not once does it say it is a roll made by the model

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The start of the turn, and the start of the movement phase, re exactly congruent in game time

Exacty. And hence the point of debate for Solar Pulses stopping Imotehk's Night Fighting completely.

The 'end' of a turn is simulatenous the beginning of the following turn. There is no separation between the two. We simply say "I'm finished" to be courteous to other player. But as soon as their movement phase begins, the first turn is over. So, if Night Fighting was ended by a Solar Pulse "until the end of turn", then the rules are not in place at the beginning of the following turn for Imotehk to continue them.

Not up for debate here, but some food for thought.

I love how you guys make up your own rules. No the end of a turn and the beginning of the next is not the same thing. You are caught up on something that is not there.

Turn consists of two player turns. That alone means there is a difference between a Turn and a Player turn. It does not mean that the Start of the Turn and Player 1's At the beginning of the movement phase are the same thing.

Sigh. Seriously, you need to READ your rulebook, Page 9, and actually pay attention this time.

TURN is PLAYER TURN unless you are told otherwise

What you are confusing is GAME turn and PLAYER turn, which are two entirely different things.

YOU are the one making rules up, by the simple fact that we have rules AND an FAQ saying the exact same thing, and you have nothing,

Thank you for proving my point.

FAQ says that when using the word turn it refers to a player turn unless the rule says otherwise.

It further says that a Game Turn has two player turns.

I have been saying this the whole time.

The Lord of the Storm clearly stats Game Turn which is different than a player turn.

So after repeating myself countless times the rules still support what I'm saying is correct.

MJThurston wrote:So after repeating myself countless times the rules still support what I'm saying is correct.

You've been asserting there's a step between the end of one players assault phase and the beginning of another players movement phase.
You have yet to provide any rules supporting that assertion.