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I can't believe this has to be explained.

Game Turn 1
Player1 turn
Player 2 turn

Game Turn 2
Player1 turn
Player2 turn

There is a break in each one and if the rules need to explain that to people then someone is looking way to deep.

With thinking that makes the end of one turn the start of another how can your roll for random game length? You can't.

MJThurston wrote:With thinking that makes the end of one turn the start of another how can your roll for random game length? You can't.

Erm, why not? That's like saying you can't roll for FNP because there's no post-save-pre-wound-application-step. The rule creates one.

MJThurston wrote:I can't believe this has to be explained.

Game Turn 1
Player1 turn
Player 2 turn

Game Turn 2
Player1 turn
Player2 turn

There is a break in each one and if the rules need to explain that to people then someone is looking way to deep.

With thinking that makes the end of one turn the start of another how can your roll for random game length? You can't.

MJThurston, you're relying on the fact that you're inserting a step between any of the phases. There is no "begin turn" phase or "end turn" phase. There are only Movement, Shooting and Assault. Once you have finished your assault phase, the movement phase of the opponent begins the next player turn. I think you're getting caught up in the fact that we, as humans, insert rapport, timing and sequences that aren't there. We tell our opponent "Your turn." We look at our opponent to see if he knows it is his turn, etc. - but in reality, if we followed the rules strictly, as soon as you were finished rolling your last assault roll and your opponent completed the morale step of the assault phase, he could begin moving his models. The end of player 1's assaut phase is, at the exact same time, the beginning of player 2's movement phase. There's nothing at all in between. Similarly, the end of player 2's assault phase is, simulatenously, the beginning of player 1's movement phase and the beginning of Game Turn 2. There is no pause, there is no 'ready, set, go'. It just is.

No you are inserting that there are no steps.

There are steps. You have turns and player turns. Those are steps. Each on is defined in it's own way.

It has nothing to do with humans needing a beginning and a ending.

No it is not just is. There is turn 1 and there is turn 2. Those are defined. Saying there is no difference between Turn 1, Player turn 1 and Beginning of the movement phase is not only wrong but is not supported in the game rules at all.

Beginning of Game Turn 1=Beginning of Player Turn 1=Beginning of Player 1's Turn 1 Movement Phase.
Turn 1 IS Player Turn 1 UNLESS specified to be GAME Turn 1.

Happyjew wrote:Beginning of Game Turn 1=Beginning of Player Turn 1=Beginning of Player 1's Turn 1 Movement Phase.
Turn 1 IS Player Turn 1 UNLESS specified to be GAME Turn 1.

Exactly.

MJThurston wrote:No you are inserting that there are no steps.

There are steps. You have turns and player turns. Those are steps. Each on is defined in it's own way.

It has nothing to do with humans needing a beginning and a ending.

No it is not just is. There is turn 1 and there is turn 2. Those are defined. Saying there is no difference between Turn 1, Player turn 1 and Beginning of the movement phase is not only wrong but is not supported in the game rules at all.

Well in that case Warptime also belongs to my armys rules

decoste007xt wrote:Well in that case Warptime also belongs to my armys rules

Warptime is a psychic power, not a special rule. There is a point of reference that acutally has to cast it. Imotehk doesn't "use" the ability. It just happens. Just like Logan Grimnar.

MJThurston wrote:
No it is not just is. There is turn 1 and there is turn 2. Those are defined. Saying there is no difference between Turn 1, Player turn 1 and Beginning of the movement phase is not only wrong but is not supported in the game rules at all.

The game rules support a total of six phases are completed in one Game turn, three phases per player: Movement, Shooting, and Assaulting, nothing more nothing less. There is no "start of game" phase or "start of turn" phase or "start of phase" sub-phase, just those identified three phases occurring in the identified order.

You are half correct.

This is what the rules support.

There is a game turn.
There is 2 player turns.
There are 3 phases to each player turn.

Power stats in black and white that you roll for it on the game turn. That is not a player turn.

You have shown no rule that says this is incorrect. You have assumed that there are only phases. Which is incorrect because each 3 phases happen in a player turn and not in a game turn which has 2 player turns.

MJThurston wrote:You are half correct.

This is what the rules support.

There is a game turn.
There is 2 player turns.
There are 3 phases to each player turn.

Power stats in black and white that you roll for it on the game turn. That is not a player turn.

You have shown no rule that says this is incorrect. You have assumed that there are only phases. Which is incorrect because each 3 phases happen in a player turn and not in a game turn which has 2 player turns.

Where the debate lies is the fact that you think there is a difference between a player turn and the 3 phases that make it up. There is no difference. You could call it Movement/Assault/Shooting 1, Movement/Assault/Shooting 2. But that's poor word conservation. We simplify it by saying 'Turn 1' and 'Turn 2'. Combine those and they make a 'Game Turn 1'. But they all mean the same thing.

It's sort of like, instead of always saying ~1000 bytes, we say a kilobyte. And then instead of saying ~1000000 bytes, we say a megabyte. But they're all the same thing.


Edit: What does it matter when you roll it, though? Why is this even a part of the debate?

MJThurston wrote:
It says at the start of the turn which is before the movement phase.

. . .


This roll happens between the Turn and the Beginning of the Movement phase.

This ^^ is blatantly wrong however, no matter how it applies. There is no difference between the start of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase. You need to provide a page number and a paragraph. A line would help too, to defend this.

No, I understand that each player turn is 3 phases. You don't understand that there is a difference in a Game turn and a player turn.

Rule states at the beginning of the game turn you roll a d6. Everyone here seems to think that the Game turn is = to Player 1's Movement phase. This is of course 100% incorrect.

MJThurston wrote:Everyone here seems to think that the Game turn is = to Player 1's Movement phase. This is of course 100% incorrect.

Can't tell if trolling or....

Can't someone just lock this thread.

"Everyone here seems to think that the Game turn is = to Player 1's Movement phase. This is of course 100% incorrect. "

No, we think that the start of the game turn is the same as the start of player 1s movement phase. Thats because we're right, as youre making up a pre-movement phase phase called "start of game turn" which does not exist anywhere in the rules.

And we go back to game terms that are used.

Game turn = 2 player turns

Start of Movement Phase - Very clear.

When a rule is stated it must be clearly defined. Rules say "Start of the Movement Phase." There is no equal to that. It is what it is.

A rule says "Start of the Game Turn". Rule is very clear and if it was meant for another rule then it be stated as such.

Example "At the Start of the Movement Phase of Player 1.

So the rules are clear that the roll happens at the Start of the Game Turn. I can not see how this can be even debated.

...which is the same as the start of the movement phase for player 1

Exactly the same.

You have no rules support backing up your notion that the two are not congruent in game time.

You have no rule stating that the Top of the turn is Player 1's movement phase.

Page 9 breaks down a turn for us. The first thing in it is the movement phase. There's no other phase or step before that.

Page 9 also tells us that a game turn is made up of two player turns. Nowhere is it stated that it is made up of anything else.

No the rules says as follows.

You have a Game turn that consists of two player turns. Those player turns are broke down into 3 phases.

So we have the following

Game turn 1
Player 1's 3 phases
Player 2's 3 phases

So we have 8 events.
Game turn 1
Player 1's Movement phase
Player 1's Shooting phase
Player 1's Assault phase
Player 2's Movement phase
Player 2's Shooting phase
Player 2's Assault phase
End of turn 1

Turn 2 and it continues.

Now how do we know that there is a start of a game turn and a end of a game turn.

Lets look at two rules.
Rule 1. Roll a d6 at the start of turn 2.
Rule 2. For random game turns roll at the end of turn 5.

Both of these clearly support a start and a stop. If there is no start and stop then you can never roll for the end of the game.

Wrong. You have 6 events.
Player 1 Move
Player 1 Shoot
Player 1 Assault
Player 2 Move
Player 2 Shoot
Player 2 Assault
There is not event called "Game Turn 1" or "End of Turn 1"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Start of turn 2 is the start of player 1's 2nd Movement phase.
End of Turn 5, is after all assaults are completed during Player 2's 5th Assault phase. That is when you roll.

Happyjew wrote:Wrong. You have 6 events.
Player 1 Move
Player 1 Shoot
Player 1 Assault
Player 2 Move
Player 2 Shoot
Player 2 Assault
There is not event called "Game Turn 1" or "End of Turn 1"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Start of turn 2 is the start of player 1's 2nd Movement phase.
End of Turn 5, is after all assaults are completed during Player 2's 5th Assault phase. That is when you roll.

+1

And if you want to get really literal, and stop using definitions to describe other things that all mean the same thing, you could simply say:

"You roll to see if the game continues at the end of Assault phase 10." Since that is unclear, we simply say "turn 5", since we know how to define what a turn is. Just because a turn is made up of 3 phases, does not magically create a "pre-turn-sequence" phase that you keep hanging onto.

I think it's beyond time to lock this. The original question was answered and everything past page 1 has become pointless

It hasn't been pointless. Not one of you has proven that the a Game Turn is equal to Start of Player 1's Movement phase.

It also shows that American's need to have their hands held when reading rules because they come up with crazy ways to try to twist rules.

Warmachine's rules are so much better written and I really hope the new rule book fixes the majority of 40k's loopholes.

You guys can continue to play in this crazy world where Game Turn's equal player phases but we all should know that there is a difference even if GW didn't make the rule 100% clear for you.

Stop making strawman arguments up. NOBODY has said that the game turn is equal to a players phase

1) I'm British. Apparently you didnt see the flag

2) You have no rule, nothing, that says start of game turn 1 happens ina different "time" to player turn 1 start of movement phase. The game is made up of 6 phases per game turn, you are making up another phase.

You're wrong on this, this is such a basic concept as well...

MJThurston wrote:It also shows that American's need to have their hands held when reading rules because they come up with crazy ways to try to twist rules.

<broadcast mode active: comments like this are not constructive, and only serve to diminish your credibility when participating in discussions; refrain from posting in this manner, please>