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jy2 wrote:Exorcists are not mobile as in eldar/BA/DE mobile, but 6" is better than 0" any day of the week. I'll take it. Also, their high gun turrets means that they usually don't have LOS problems like static heavy weapon squads usually do. Moreover, they are a huge fire magnet that takes a lot of the "heat" off of the sisters transports. That in itself is golden.

That's not to say retributors aren't good. They are a respectable unit that I would consider using....just not in an all-mech sisters army.

Your comments are correct, but those are just the pro/con arguments for vehicle based heavy weapons vs foot based heavy weapons. (For example, I could come back with "Yeah well, you can't (usually) one-shot a Retributor squad, and most anti-Infantry weapons don't have long range, etc")

What I don't get is how any of these pro/con arguments are relevant to mech vs non-mech. I can see the fire magnet argument, but trading a single Exorcist for a Retributor squad and 50 extra points doesn't lose you too much from your Exorcist fire magnets. Again, the mobility argument doesn't seem to apply since it's not as if your Heavy Bolters need to follow the rest of your army into mid-field. I'm not trying to be combative, I just don't understand the argument.

Amerikon wrote:I disagree. None of the Sisters' Heavy Support choices are mobile. Sure the Exorcist can move 6" and fire but realistically they're going to form a fairly static firebase.

That's just wrong. The 6" move is a HUGE difference from a static infantry unit. In most games, if they're still alive, my Exorcists end up 18-24" across the board as I look for side shots and hunt down stragglers.

Also, under the new rules a Retributor squad that gets off Divine Guidance is more likely to penetrate AV11-13 than an Exorcist, so they're actually a cheap dual-threat unit, not just anti-infantry. On top of that S5 AP4 should have Necrons running for cover.

IF they get their act off. With only one roll, even with Simulacrum, that is less likely.





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How did the wraiths plus destroyer lord run then assault? Destroyer lord doesn't have fleet, does he?


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Amerikon wrote:What I don't get is how any of these pro/con arguments are relevant to mech vs non-mech. I can see the fire magnet argument, but trading a single Exorcist for a Retributor squad and 50 extra points doesn't lose you too much from your Exorcist fire magnets. Again, the mobility argument doesn't seem to apply since it's not as if your Heavy Bolters need to follow the rest of your army into mid-field. I'm not trying to be combative, I just don't understand the argument.

It's not 50 extra points when you take into account Simulacrum and bullet catchers. Otherwise, if you take a single hit, you lose 25% of your output or your faith efficacy. I've tried out Retributors and I really haven't been happy with them. That being said, I have ridiculously good luck with Exorcists.

Did SabrX remember all his 6++ rolls? That's the hardest part of playing the new sisters for me, remembering my damn 6++.


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Also (and I know I'm spamming here), the new sisters must remember an old adage even more now with the new book. "She who bails, fails."

We used to be able to pile out and wipe things off the board with 2-3 squads, but piling out now just means getting assaulted. I imagine the next picture we see is a scarab multi-assault against the entire sisters line.

Lastly, the conclave vs wraiths result is kind of interesting. Jacobus would have been key for several reasons... Reroll of hits, extra attacks and FNP. Hmm 16 DCA attacks, hitting on 3's is 8-9, wounding on 4's, should have put 2 wounds after saves. Yuck. That's why you need more DCA. Same thing would have happened against TH/SS terms as well. 7 Jacobi DCA would have been 35, 24 hits, with rerolls 32 total. 16 wounds, 2/3 save is still 5-6 wounds on wraiths at I6. FNP against the wraiths attacks would have kept the combat honest. Oh well.

pretre wrote:That's just wrong. The 6" move is a HUGE difference from a static infantry unit. In most games, if they're still alive, my Exorcists end up 18-24" across the board as I look for side shots and hunt down stragglers.

I'd think if you're moving your Exorcists around a lot, then you're running out of targets/threats. I like to keep mine in cover. Moving out will typically cause my own side armor to be exposed.

pretre wrote:

Also, under the new rules a Retributor squad that gets off Divine Guidance is more likely to penetrate AV11-13 than an Exorcist, so they're actually a cheap dual-threat unit, not just anti-infantry. On top of that S5 AP4 should have Necrons running for cover.

IF they get their act off. With only one roll, even with Simulacrum, that is less likely.

You can make the faith test before choosing your target.

pretre wrote:It's not 50 extra points when you take into account Simulacrum and bullet catchers. Otherwise, if you take a single hit, you lose 25% of your output or your faith efficacy. I've tried out Retributors and I really haven't been happy with them. That being said, I have ridiculously good luck with Exorcists.

I never take the Simulacrum or any extra bodies. The whole point of Retributors is that they're cheap. I always assign the first hit to the VSS. If she dies, you don't lose any bolter shots and your faith rolls are still at 4+. I haven't played much since the FAQ came out so I'm not sure if the Simulacrum is more necessary now, we'll have to wait and see.

Amerikon wrote:I'd think if you're moving your Exorcists around a lot, then you're running out of targets/threats. I like to keep mine in cover. Moving out will typically cause my own side armor to be exposed.

If your opponent comes towards you than your side arcs will change. I will often strafe around the field so as to keep my front arc pointed at my opponents AT. Not to mention that wily opponents use LOS blocking terrain to obscure your Heavies. Exorcists can work around that; Retributors can't.

You can make the faith test before choosing your target.

Fair enough, but if they fail it, you still aren't pen'ing armor, although you do get a consolation prize.

pretre wrote:I never take the Simulacrum or any extra bodies. The whole point of Retributors is that they're cheap. I always assign the first hit to the VSS. If she dies, you don't lose any bolter shots and your faith rolls are still at 4+. I haven't played much since the FAQ came out so I'm not sure if the Simulacrum is more necessary now, we'll have to wait and see.

Well, if you play them dirt cheap, then I guess they're good for that. I prefer the reliability of the Exorcist (hilarious, I know, but I am infamous for number of shots). AV13 and mobile is just nice. 5 T3 wounds in cover that have a 50% chance of being able to do their real job just doesn't do it for me, even with the saved 50 points. They were a lot better when you could keep rolling.

Battle report completed.

Scarabs multi-assault 3 sister units - 2 battle sisters and 1 dominion - tying them up for the rest of the game. Good, now they can't shoot me.

Called it.

Red Corsair wrote:
Yea, it is tough to pick which is the better gamble, rolling for night fight or reserves. I don't think castling against a rush army ever works well unless you get lucky or play your way out of it utilizing your opponents mistakes.

In the future it would probably be best to make him have choices. That is the best way I find to beat blitz armies. Instead of letting them dictate the game with the choices they offer, counter offer and make him split up and go for your offense and defense rather then sitting everything by your objective. Your initial deployment really made his game straight forward.

You bring up a very good point. One of the "secrets" to my success is to force my opponent into making tough choices. That's why I feel this army is so effective. It will force the opponent to make many tough choices - who should I deal with first? Almost all my threat units are equally dangerous. It is because I keep my opponents so occupied with my "threats" that I don't even have to worry about my weaker MSU troop choices.

Even against his Blood Angels, which I actually felt was a very good army that could deal with my multiple threats, I forced my opponent to make a very difficult choice even after he ate my scarabs for lunch. By splitting up my wraiths and flanking them, I forced his assault terminators to choose - go after the wraiths and objectives to the right or the wraiths and the rest of my army to the left. Had I gone straight at his terminators backed by 55 FNP assault marines, most likely I would have lost.

In this game, by castling near his objective, he made it very easy for me. No need to think at all, just bum-rush his army with my entire army after wrecking his vehicles with my doom scythes. In contrast, I remember a long time ago when I played his witchhunters with my fatecrusher daemons. He played that game very well by splitting his forces up into 2 equal halves. In that game, I was the one forced to make the difficult choice and I chose to play for the tie (by keeping my forces together) instead of the loss (by splitting up my forces).

pretre wrote:
But Dominions are there to die. That's their job. If they're killing my doms they aren't killing my important stuff. I basically think of Dominions as a nice tax to purchase a TL-MM Scouting Immolator. Not quite, but they do a lot of damage and die right after. So far the flamers have been huge! They do more wounds on MEQ than the Melta do and then charge or not depending on what's around.

Celestine's greatest asset is not her damage output but her disruption output. She has a disproportionate footprint on the battlefield because people fear her or at least worry about her. And when she does well, she does reaaaaallly well. I'm keeping her in until 2500 when a second conclave is pretty much required.

Both very good analysis. In a objectives-based game, other than the battle sisters, all are meant to be sacrificial.

And Celestine is a very good disruption unit indeed. I've played against her 3 times. In 2 of those games, I just ignored her for the most part but in the 3rd, she cleaned house against my guardsmen.

Amerikon wrote:
Your comments are correct, but those are just the pro/con arguments for vehicle based heavy weapons vs foot based heavy weapons. (For example, I could come back with "Yeah well, you can't (usually) one-shot a Retributor squad, and most anti-Infantry weapons don't have long range, etc")

What I don't get is how any of these pro/con arguments are relevant to mech vs non-mech. I can see the fire magnet argument, but trading a single Exorcist for a Retributor squad and 50 extra points doesn't lose you too much from your Exorcist fire magnets. Again, the mobility argument doesn't seem to apply since it's not as if your Heavy Bolters need to follow the rest of your army into mid-field. I'm not trying to be combative, I just don't understand the argument.

All so true. Ultimately, it just comes down to a matter of preference when you pick and choose your units. Just because I prefer all tanks with my mechanized army doesn't make me right or you wrong for adding a unit of static infantry. It just means I have a different preference of units than you.

However, don't discount mobility with your heavy weapons units. I've played both long fang-spam and psyfleman-spam so have experience with both sides of the coin. With mobility, I can move out of LOS of your shooty units, maneuver into cover, move so that I do have LOS to your units who are hiding, maneuver so that I am shooting at you without cover, go to contest an objective while still firing, screen out and protect my own units while still firing, move to try to get side-arc shots (especially against ork battlewagons), move to get into shooting range of certain units, come in from Dawn of War and still shoot (i.e. a unit that has been searchlighted), etc., etc. Mobile firepower gives you much more tactical flexibility that you just cannot get with static units.

No, what you do with the doom scythes is take Zandrekh. He allows you to bring in your entire reserves when your opponent brings in one unit from reserves, like the deathmarks special rule but one unit equals your entire army comes in, then you can either DS them in or use their supersonic 36" movement(would be far more reliable than DSing them in) to put them into a position to either have cover or completely hidden from LOS.

pretre wrote:
How did the wraiths plus destroyer lord run then assault? Destroyer lord doesn't have fleet, does he?

They didn't. It was my other wraith squad without the D-Lord that ran (who later got surrounded and assaulted by his conclave). The wraith-destroyer unit just assaulted after moving. They didn't run.

pretre wrote:
Did SabrX remember all his 6++ rolls? That's the hardest part of playing the new sisters for me, remembering my damn 6++.

Yeah, he did, although I actually had to remind him on a couple of occassions.

pretre wrote:
We used to be able to pile out and wipe things off the board with 2-3 squads, but piling out now just means getting assaulted. I imagine the next picture we see is a scarab multi-assault against the entire sisters line.

Spoken like a true tactical connoisseur.

pretre wrote:
Lastly, the conclave vs wraiths result is kind of interesting. Jacobus would have been key for several reasons... Reroll of hits, extra attacks and FNP. Hmm 16 DCA attacks, hitting on 3's is 8-9, wounding on 4's, should have put 2 wounds after saves. Yuck. That's why you need more DCA. Same thing would have happened against TH/SS terms as well. 7 Jacobi DCA would have been 35, 24 hits, with rerolls 32 total. 16 wounds, 2/3 save is still 5-6 wounds on wraiths at I6. FNP against the wraiths attacks would have kept the combat honest. Oh well.

No, it is not optimal to assault my wraiths with the DCA conclave unless he has no choice. Whip coils will reduce the majority of them to I1, wound allocation and 3++ will ensure my survival and S6 will bypass their FNP. It is a good deathstar but it won't beat wraithwing.

The best answer SoB have against wraiths is a team effort to shoot them down.

Nice rep! Before the deployment and everything was shown i thought the sisters had a pretty good chance. But it is just like you said, he gave you a massive advantage by moving in super close and piling everything together, not really asking much of you in the way of decision making. Once his wheels were gone it was game over. In fact I would say he didn't even have a chance after that first round of shooting from the Crons. Oh well, like you said he was not super familiar with the crons he was facing, so his plan only succeed in offering up his sisters on a silver platter for the scarabs. I am interested in hearing from Sabrx what his plan was in deploying over there or what his strategy was for the game? I would say after that first turn of shooting on you, you did not have many options left, sad to say. Good rep though!

SabrX's post-game analysis (jy2, feel free to copy and paste somwhere):

I didn't expect jy2's scarab to tie up the rear Battle Sister unit. I was hoping his Wraith would dive in after finishing the Crusader, but he jumped over combat and went straight for my objective.

I'm still amazed how resilient the Wraith-wing is. I concentrated two Battle Sister units, a Dominion squad, Saint Celestine, and an Exorcist into a single unit. The Destroyer Lord and 2 Wraiths manage to survive.

Kyrinov didn't play a huge role in this game other than stalling jy2's other Wraith unit for a turn. The Battle Sisters and Dominions didn't need his fearless bubble against the Scarabs. I still think picking Kyrinov was the right choice. Jacob would have been instant killed and FNP wouldn't work against Str6 attacks (Crusaders and Death Cults are T3 meaning St6 = instant death). The Extra attacks also wouldn't help because of Whip Coils.

The Doom Scythe were a major thorn in my side. I couldn't shoot at them due to turn 1 night fighting. Later on, I sent a suicide Dominion squad who failed their faith power and missed both melta-shots. Despite there outstanding performance, I still think they aren't a good pick in the current meta-game. Nid Hive Guards, IG, GK psy-rifle dread, SW, and other armies with considerable anti-mech range can take out Doom Scythe. IMO, jy2's 8-9 Spyder list is better.

In hindsight, I should have placed my objective deployed in diagonally across in the opposite corner. It would have allowed me to make full use of my army's mobility, force jy2 to spread out his units, and grant me a couple turns until night fighting wears off. I should have also kept a couple Dominion units in reserve in hopes of out-flanking and contesting jy2's objective late game.

Good game jy2. Thanks for letting me borrow your IG models for conclave proxy.

Darn, I voted that necrons win but get the doom scythe shot down.

GG anyway.

Btw, JY2, what about your necrons vs your purifiers? Think that would make a good match up?

What would you do differently in a GK list vs necrons?

As others have already said, and as sabrx also states, the objective being diagonally separated could have given some breathing room. Also, considering the deployment the dominions could have outflanked to pressure the cron objective and backfield, or support your objective. With the objectives diagonal there is no bad outflank side.

As for celestine, since she does almost nothing versus wraiths, sending her after scarabs would have been smart. With her high ws and good armor, she could.tarpit for a while, and even when she does fail the 2+ and lose her armor save, she does have an invuln.

The battle was lost during the deployment phase from 2 mistakes: Deploying the SOB objective in the table corner closest to the necron objective instead of the corner on the opposite side of the table that is furthest from the necron objective. Mistake #1 lead to mistake #2 where the SOB army deployed on the same side of the table resulting in the battle being crowded into half the table. The crowded conditions both played into the hands of units that want to multi assault vehicles such as wraiths and scarabs and played into the hands of a doom scythe's death ray as the vehicles in formation are perfectly lined up for a death ray shot. The battle was played on just slightly over 2 square feet of table space, if it was played over 6 square feet of table space instead the SOB army would have stood a chance.

Aha. Forgot about the S6 and whip coils. In that case, I would have disembarked the crusaders closest to tie up models for base contact and the DCA about 8 inches back so that the crusaders would engage the whip coils and the DCA would only be within 2 of a model in base. Not ideal, but better than what happened. jy2's right then though, Wraiths are not an ideal target for the Battle Conclave.

SabrX wrote:I'm still amazed how resilient the Wraith-wing is. I concentrated two Battle Sister units, a Dominion squad, Saint Celestine, and an Exorcist into a single unit. The Destroyer Lord and 2 Wraiths manage to survive.

12 W at 3++ makes Wraiths one of the most resilient units in the game. You need to score something like 36 wounds before you can expect them all to die.

SabrX wrote:Kyrinov didn't play a huge role in this game other than stalling jy2's other Wraith unit for a turn. The Battle Sisters and Dominions didn't need his fearless bubble against the Scarabs. I still think picking Kyrinov was the right choice. Jacob would have been instant killed and FNP wouldn't work against Str6 attacks (Crusaders and Death Cults are T3 meaning St6 = instant death). The Extra attacks also wouldn't help because of Whip Coils.

From what you just said, Wraiths are probably the worst matchup for your Conclave. With 3++ and 2W, they're just like trying to take out 12 TH/SS Terminators. Even in ideal circumstances, with all of your Crusaders in base with the Whip Coils your Cultists will probably only get two wounds which will likely get split between different Wraiths, his return strike will probably kill most of your Cultists and one or two of your Crusaders. Judging from the battle report it looks like that's exactly what happened. If you were hoping to use them as a fearless tarpit, you should've just gone with nothing but Crusaders, but ultimately the Conclave vs Wraiths is a losing proposition.

St. Celestine suffers the same problem, so charging her into the other Wraith unit was a bit rash. If she's gonna die, make sure she takes something with her. There was a very slim chance of her even getting to strike in that combat.

SabrX wrote:The Doom Scythe were a major thorn in my side.

How does the Death Ray work? Do you have to roll to hit? If you shoot at a row of tanks does the first tank give cover to the others?

Amerikon wrote:

SabrX wrote:The Doom Scythe were a major thorn in my side.

How does the Death Ray work? Do you have to roll to hit? If you shoot at a row of tanks does the first tank give cover to the others?

The Death Ray works almost like an IG Hellhound. Nominate a point 12" from the gun and a second point 3D6 from it. Each unit (friend or foe) takes a Str10 AP1 hit equal to the number of models hit per that unit. Throughout the game, jy2 consistently rolled above average for 3D6 distance and hit many vehicles. He was careful the line didn't hit any of his own models.

Post-game Analysis posted on p.1.

Dave-c wrote:No, what you do with the doom scythes is take Zandrekh. He allows you to bring in your entire reserves when your opponent brings in one unit from reserves, like the deathmarks special rule but one unit equals your entire army comes in, then you can either DS them in or use their supersonic 36" movement(would be far more reliable than DSing them in) to put them into a position to either have cover or completely hidden from LOS.

I am not convinced that that is a viable strategy. Seems more like a gimmick to me.

I would like to see some data (i.e. battle report or something similar) if anyone ever tries this tactic.

darkcloud92 wrote:Nice rep! Before the deployment and everything was shown i thought the sisters had a pretty good chance. But it is just like you said, he gave you a massive advantage by moving in super close and piling everything together, not really asking much of you in the way of decision making. Once his wheels were gone it was game over. In fact I would say he didn't even have a chance after that first round of shooting from the Crons. Oh well, like you said he was not super familiar with the crons he was facing, so his plan only succeed in offering up his sisters on a silver platter for the scarabs. I am interested in hearing from Sabrx what his plan was in deploying over there or what his strategy was for the game? I would say after that first turn of shooting on you, you did not have many options left, sad to say. Good rep though!

I'm finding out (as is my opponent I'm sure) that mech armies do not want to get boxed in by my army. And this is with or without the doomscythe. That just makes it much easier for me to multi-assault and also to support my own units with spyders and whatnot.

Spreading out may be a better strategy against my army, but then your units won't be able to support each other so it is a double-edged sword. I suppose these are some of the "tough" choices that my army can force the opponent to make.

Anyways, once I box in an army, I take out its mobility (especially of the transports in the front) and I find that they are dead in the water unless they have other means of mobility coming in from reserves. Now this is not an auto-win, but it gives me the Positional Dominance in an objectives-game to control the tempo of the game. If I can establish control, it will usually be my opponent who has to play "catch-up".


@SabrX:

Thanks. Added it to my Post-Game on p.1.

sudojoe wrote:Darn, I voted that necrons win but get the doom scythe shot down.

GG anyway.

Btw, JY2, what about your necrons vs your purifiers? Think that would make a good match up?

What would you do differently in a GK list vs necrons?

I think that could be anyone's game. IMO, GK's are still the army to beat for necrons, but they are beatable. Against my wraithwing, my Crowe-Purifiers need to play just as aggressively. Don't get boxed in, and don't let them achieve Positional Dominance. If necrons can do that, then they will have the advantage.

Grey Knights do have a secret weapon and that is their HQ, Crowe. Crowe can be used to tie up the scarabs or wraiths. He is the guy who will tarpit the tarpits.






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Amerikon wrote:
How does the Death Ray work? Do you have to roll to hit? If you shoot at a row of tanks does the first tank give cover to the others?

Units under the line are auto-hit. No need to roll.

As for cover, we played it like any other shooting attack. If the first vehicle to be hit obscures the vehicle behind it, then that vehicle will get cover. So for the most part, front vehicles didn't have cover but ones behind it did.

However, I suspect that when the actual model comes out, it will be on the vendetta/stormraven base and stand. Thus, it will be harder for both the doom scythe to get cover from enemy shooting as well as for enemy vehicles to get cover from its deathray.

jy2 wrote:

Dave-c wrote:No, what you do with the doom scythes is take Zandrekh. He allows you to bring in your entire reserves when your opponent brings in one unit from reserves, like the deathmarks special rule but one unit equals your entire army comes in, then you can either DS them in or use their supersonic 36" movement(would be far more reliable than DSing them in) to put them into a position to either have cover or completely hidden from LOS.

I am not convinced that that is a viable strategy. Seems more like a gimmick to me.

I have used this myself to test these units out. I used them against another dakkanaut friend of mine, seaphoenix. He was playing my BA army with a mech list. He had first turn, on second turn he rolled in almost every unit except some assault marines. I DS all three scythes in behind a tall cliff hill out of LOS. On my half i took Oby and 20 warriors and veiled them behind enemy lines and shot down his sanguinary guard unit with a librarian and then wrecked or weapon destroyed his entire tank group with the scythes, leaving him with either useless empty boxes or wrecks/craters. He shook my hand after the second turn and called it after he had almost no vehicles left and about 30 assault marines to deal with an entire necron army.

He is a dakkanaut, in my friends list, if you wish to confirm this story. TBH they arent my style, and can potentially be way too fragile to be effective, but they can sure lay down the pain!

Interesting rep... Scythes seem to be far more effective than people give them credit for!

Zid wrote:Interesting rep... Scythes seem to be far more effective than people give them credit for!

I wouldn't use this report to draw many conclusions. That deployment was a NS wet dream. It was his whole armies wet dream in fact lol.

I think that his threat list is a solid strategy but the counter is just the same. Make him deal with threats to his warriors that he cannot ignore. He really can't afford to split his own threats up too much as well. Wraiths may be resilient and fearless, but they struggle against other units that fit this profile as well because they rely on rending. Any expendable unit that goes for his throat can't be ignored which will force him to split his threats as well.

As you can see the WW itself relies on MS scarabs to deal with strong characters and MC or scarabs to tar pit them, he has multiple thats but they all serve a purpose as well. Make him decide how to deal with your own in-ignorable threats and he is now forced with the tough decision. what parts of his force will he send after these threats?

Neat necron list, it reminds me of battle wagon orks actually. Turn 2 charge, many threats. Just can't panic, deal with them calmly and have a plan.

Dave-c wrote:
I have used this myself to test these units out. I used them against another dakkanaut friend of mine, seaphoenix. He was playing my BA army with a mech list. He had first turn, on second turn he rolled in almost every unit except some assault marines. I DS all three scythes in behind a tall cliff hill out of LOS. On my half i took Oby and 20 warriors and veiled them behind enemy lines and shot down his sanguinary guard unit with a librarian and then wrecked or weapon destroyed his entire tank group with the scythes, leaving him with either useless empty boxes or wrecks/craters. He shook my hand after the second turn and called it after he had almost no vehicles left and about 30 assault marines to deal with an entire necron army.

He is a dakkanaut, in my friends list, if you wish to confirm this story. TBH they arent my style, and can potentially be way too fragile to be effective, but they can sure lay down the pain!

No doubt. The necron codex has a lot of combos/synergies that could work. My wraithwing build isn't the only one, though I do feel that it can achieve a more consistent level of performance than most others.

Zid wrote:Interesting rep... Scythes seem to be far more effective than people give them credit for!

That's my train of thought as well. However, it really does need more testing to see the consistency of its performance. I'm not big on one-hit wonders in my TAC (Take-All-Comer's) list. I prefer units that can consistently perform. I think the litmus test is how well it can do against a more shooty army. The SoB army just didn't have enough ranged weaponry to deal with it.

Red Corsair wrote:I think that his threat list is a solid strategy but the counter is just the same. Make him deal with threats to his warriors that he cannot ignore. He really can't afford to split his own threats up too much as well. Wraiths may be resilient and fearless, but they struggle against other units that fit this profile as well because they rely on rending. Any expendable unit that goes for his throat can't be ignored which will force him to split his threats as well.

As you can see the WW itself relies on MS scarabs to deal with strong characters and MC or scarabs to tar pit them, he has multiple thats but they all serve a purpose as well. Make him decide how to deal with your own in-ignorable threats and he is now forced with the tough decision. what parts of his force will he send after these threats?

Neat necron list, it reminds me of battle wagon orks actually. Turn 2 charge, many threats. Just can't panic, deal with them calmly and have a plan.

Right. If you can redirect my "attention" to my more vulnerable units, then you would have greatly alleviated the pressure on yourself. My saving grace, though, is that I can quickly react and get to where I need to get to quickly. On top of that, spyders are a decent counter-assault unit meant to defend the home objectives if necessary.

Yeah, battlewagon orks are probably this list's closest equivalent. That and fiendweaver builds. My advantage over them, though, is that I can split up and not be affected at all. If they split up, they lose important buffs (Fateweaver's bubble or KFF protection).

Yea I can see that, your components do react quickly but that is why multiple units that disrupt are so invaluable against rush armies. Being able to react and split is entirely different then wanting to

Those spyders are solid but I feel like their output isn't really high. They remind me a lot of my Obliteraters, people always forget how lethal a few assaulting oblits really are because that isn't the major role they play. Knowing how rounded a unit is in the backfield is crucial because of this. Long fangs are another instance. They seem like they would be vulnerable to assaults but that extra combat weapon and counter attack actually makes them lethal. It's a game of picking your poison I suppose.

I am always stunned at how amazing tesla destructors keep performing. I just figure that the AP- will hurt them but the sheer volume always compensates it seems. I am leaning more and more towards those as well (in theory that is as I don't play crons....yet).

Red Corsair wrote:

Long fangs are another instance. They seem like they would be vulnerable to assaults but that extra combat weapon and counter attack actually makes them lethal. It's a game of picking your poison I suppose.

Long fangs have to replace their bolt pistol with a heavy weapon, except the sergeant. They do have counter-attack, but they are not as good at receiving a charge as their younger brethren (grey hunters).