Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:My Killcannons and Shokk attack gun would like a word with you...

Autocannons and Lasscannons to...

[q/uote]Anyway, who told you they were weak? They are one of the most competitive armies in the game.

They are strong, if they get in melee, on range they are just target practice for Guard and Tau alike.
And this is 40k fluff section, not TT one. This thread has to be moved to 40k Discussions.

Did you just compare an autocannon and lascannon to the SAG?

...I had no idea that autocannons and lascannons can potentially outright kill a whole squad of termies in one hit!
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!

Yeah, don't underestimate ork dakka. Ork shooty armies require a bit of work, but when it works, it'll massacre everything.

My big problem was that people say they are crap in shooting, which is true if we're talking accuracy, but the amount of firepower orks put out is devasting. They also don't have terrible guns.

i have to agree with Iranna, my demons easily destroy orks thanks to their speed and mobility, but the guy i play against fields 60 boys so the numbers can be a problem. Thanks to the wonderful rule that i can't assault after deep strike, he is sometimes lucky enough to take out a good chunk of my demons. But anything with good initiative can easily kill an ork because their best guys usually wield power claws. but enough hating and complaining. Overall, if you know how to play to your strengths as an ork player, orks can be very powerful and deadly

Fluff-aly speaking all you need fear from orks -afaik- is random a** logic breakage and drowning in shroom-juice.

Game speaking I've never had a problem dealing with orks although I've only ever played 500pnt battles against them -because the main ork user that I fight only has about 500pnts of them.-

theflaminghorror wrote:i have to agree with Iranna, my demons easily destroy orks thanks to their speed and mobility, but the guy i play against fields 60 boys so the numbers can be a problem. Thanks to the wonderful rule that i can't assault after deep strike, he is sometimes lucky enough to take out a good chunk of my demons. But anything with good initiative can easily kill an ork because their best guys usually wield power claws. but enough hating and complaining. Overall, if you know how to play to your strengths as an ork player, orks can be very powerful and deadly

only 60? wow i run 90 as a rule of thumb always if I run less i get less confident in the list but do tend to experiment still

I haven't face many demons and never seemed to have a problem *shrug* i believe you all i just have to take you at your word because I have been able to catch Eldar and Dark eldar speed lists with no problem... again i run interesting tactics though so i dunno.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NL_Cirrus wrote:Fluff-aly speaking all you need fear from orks -afaik- is random a** logic breakage and drowning in shroom-juice.

Game speaking I've never had a problem dealing with orks although I've only ever played 500pnt battles against them -because the main ork user that I fight only has about 500pnts of them.-

90 orks is only 540 pts, surprising he isn't overwhelming you unless he is wasting points in such a low pts game *shrug*. never run games that small though or even know what your army is but I am surprised your enemy isn't doing better unless he plays like a typical ork player i suppose....

Iranna wrote:While everyone is advocating why orks are good (most of what has been said in this thread I agree with) there is one things that all Ork armies struggle with - Speed.

All foot armies usually struggle with fast, mobile armies such as Eldar, Dark Eldar and even (dare I say it?) a Mono-Slaanesh Daemons list.

I've often found that Orks are just far too slow to deal with multiple fast threats without shooting them down (another reason why, as other posters have stated, Ork shooting is pivotal to the army) and usually, a good player can use this to beat Orks.

For example, even a mob of 30 Ork boyz is going to struggle against 2 Squads of 6 fiends charging them as Slaanesh Daemons are Chaos' main answer to large infantry blocks due to the sheer volume of attacks.

So yes, while Orks can be very difficult to deal with for slower armies such as Space Marines, fast armies such as Eldar generally have an easier time just with the ability to kite a lot of the threats that the army poses.

Iranna.

Really? Speed is an issue? When Orks have a specially designed clan called SPEED FREEKS? Nob Bikers, Trukks, Deffkoptas, Buggies (heck even Battlewagons). If that's struggling with speed, I'm playing the wrong race. Orks aren't just a foot army....

Even foot sloggin' lists don't really struggle. Take some Lootas and some Suicide Koptas and everything the Eldar bring is going to end up on foot right quick.

So much of this! An ork after my own heart you too have learned the power of Sickle & anvil as well good ... myess good.

Honestly the big glaring weaknesses of orks is slow init and low armor on our most abundant resource... boyz! This means templates and artillery are most effective if tooled right. Speed helps but it doesn't outwit a smart horde for long, just delays the proper Waaagh

I find it hilarious when some random (usually IG or SM ) opponent tools up on antitank toys such as meltaspam and lascannons for an 'all-comers list' (everyone rides in aV 12+ metal boxes these days, just about...), and I bring a Green Tide....

Heavy weapons/Devestators teams FIRE!!

half a dozen orks die..

Meltas FIRE ..


Couple more die, their beercan armour ignored...

IG Lasgun barrages can still be nasty though

You WILL be taking buckets of models off the table each turn. The codex flat out tells you that you will IIRC. That bucket also comes in handy for the hundred-dice tidal wave for your attacks in CC or your shooting..

Never underestimate the power of the Big Green Machine..






Automatically Appended Next Post:
People who've blown all their spare points on power weapons also make orks giggle, as it's a rare ork that will have better than a 6+ save..

45 boys an 6 koptas with pks infiltrating from the right, left and rear of your deploymentzone led by the famous snikrot of armageddon and a warboss, whilst a kanwall followed by a kff mek and 60+ boys is marching up the middle with a 4+ save is usually enugh to make even gunline armies break a sweat...

//Calle, blood axe warlord.

Brother Coa wrote:They are strong, if they get in melee, on range they are just target practice for Guard and Tau alike.
And this is 40k fluff section, not TT one. This thread has to be moved to 40k Discussions.

This guy man, lol.

You are wrong sir. Orks are terrible shots, but there are a lot of terrible shots in an Ork army and and quite a few of them hit mind you. Ork aren't about the quality of shooting, they're about quantity.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Burna boyz in Wagons: Goodbye multiple squads in 1 shot. Seriously do the math on a open tops tank battle wagon holding Burna boyz real fast, 15 flamers ... or 16 if you gave the Big mek that would tag along with them. Position your weapon to hit the most enemies. For armies that favor gunlines, you often keep tightnit for armies who swarm you often are tightly packed too. Even if you aren't lets say you can only manage to hit 4 guys ... which is impressive since you should be tank shocking and firing your kill kannon after this... But even with 4 targets hitting you multiply it by 16 and that make 64 strength 4 auto hits! I can tell you I have wipes regiments of IG this way before all due to KFF shielding the Wagon and rushing as fast as it can into close range before evaporating enemies that aren't toughness 8 (coughwraithlordcough).

Any army can be impressive if you cheat: you can't have 16 Orks in a BW if you give it a Killcannon.


That said, I find that the thing that makes Orks dangerous is the sheer potential of disastrous results from shooting: any army that relies on quantity of attacks is going to have a small possibility to have all or most of those attacks do damage. When an Ork player rolls well, stuff is vaporized.

Dodgywop wrote:

Really? Speed is an issue? When Orks have a specially designed clan called SPEED FREEKS? Nob Bikers, Trukks, Deffkoptas, Buggies (heck even Battlewagons). If that's struggling with speed, I'm playing the wrong race. Orks aren't just a foot army....

Even foot sloggin' lists don't really struggle. Take some Lootas and some Suicide Koptas and everything the Eldar bring is going to end up on foot right quick.

Can all your tanks move 36" in one turn? Can your bikes move 30" in one turn?

That's great, when you're hitting on 5s and penning on 5s and I get my 4+ Cover save. I'll take my chances.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:

Really? Speed is an issue? When Orks have a specially designed clan called SPEED FREEKS? Nob Bikers, Trukks, Deffkoptas, Buggies (heck even Battlewagons). If that's struggling with speed, I'm playing the wrong race. Orks aren't just a foot army....

Even foot sloggin' lists don't really struggle. Take some Lootas and some Suicide Koptas and everything the Eldar bring is going to end up on foot right quick.

Can all your tanks move 36" in one turn? Can your bikes move 30" in one turn?

That's great, when you're hitting on 5s and penning on 5s and I get my 4+ Cover save. I'll take my chances.

Iranna.

And when I take 180 boyz led by PK nobs to flood the field, giving you no where for your Eldar to run, I'll take my chances

bombboy1252 wrote:

And when I take 180 boyz led by PK nobs to flood the field, giving you no where for your Eldar to run, I'll take my chances

I'll be quite content to shoot you up until you get close enough and then jump to the other side of the board.

Iranna.

A friend of mine stopped fielding his eldar against me, cause his serpents went down against my rokkits and trukkaboys with PKs, whilst bikers and spiders were pulverized by my kannons, lobbas and killakan scrap guns...

//Calle

Iranna wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

And when I take 180 boyz led by PK nobs to flood the field, giving you no where for your Eldar to run, I'll take my chances

I'll be quite content to shoot you up until you get close enough and then jump to the other side of the board.

Iranna.

I can tell you must find it easy to avoid so many models, while I won't bother to expand on how difficult this should be in the reality of the game as 180+ models is normally when properly distanced to avoid templates and the like normally taking up the entire 3/4 of the table boosting 36 isn't enough to avoid us properly. Infact, this tactic does nothing but help us as an army cause it prevents you from shooting and since you need to stay on the move this means you'll have even less shots. Ontop of this wave serpents and falcons are not open topped so we can look forward to no surprise assaults to lock us since you'd attempt cat and mouse.

But I will say not dealing with the horde is exactly what i would want you to do. You can be as fast as you want then at that point cause I will either claim your objectives, slowly but surely win in kill points or keep forcing you off objectives making you respond to my gameplay rather than the otherway around. Oh btw... 36 inch movement is neat.... when we don't spam 45 strength 7 shots for less points than your wave serpent and the troop it's carrying. Ultimately most armies know this tactic with the Eldar as it's ultimately the most common tactic of the army at this time... while it might work on people who don't understand how to fight an enemy properly it won't against the people who use all of our elements properly such as lootas, deffkoptas and rokkit buggies

Iranna wrote:

Can all your tanks move 36" in one turn? Can your bikes move 30" in one turn?

That's great, when you're hitting on 5s and penning on 5s and I get my 4+ Cover save. I'll take my chances.

Iranna.

15 Lootas get an average of 30 S7 shots. 10 hit.

10 hits against AV 12, let's say, gives us. . . an average of 3 pens or glances. Every turn. Your 4+ save cuts that down to only 1 or two rolls on the damage table, fortunately, but that's still not particularly good. Over the course of the game every squad of Lootas will make you roll on that table between six and TWELVE times; and remember, Skimmers moving fast are destroyed when immobilized, meaning you have a 50% chance of being destroyed outright every time one of those zoomy transports suffers a pen. Odds are that over the course of the game each squad of Lootas will destroy at least two or three of your tanks. Even when they aren't actually shot down, you'll be spending most of the game Shaken or Stunned; not gonna do much shooting, or moving, with those vehicles. And these are 48" range guns, you're NOT going to be able to stay out of range of them unless you just want to crowd into the opposite corner and give up the game. And, of course, if you jump over to assault the Lootas you're going to have to come to them, and the horde is going to give whoever you send a right good kickin'.

So by all means, take your chances.

EDIT: Edited for derp, Deffguns aren't Twin-linked. I was thinking of Dakkagunz, the weapons Warbikers have. Mathhammer has been corrected.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Iranna wrote:

Can all your tanks move 36" in one turn? Can your bikes move 30" in one turn?

That's great, when you're hitting on 5s and penning on 5s and I get my 4+ Cover save. I'll take my chances.

Iranna.

15 Lootas get an average of 30 TL S7 shots. 10 hit, 20 get re-rolled, 7 more hits.

17 hits against AV 12, let's say, gives us. . . oh, look, 3 pens and 3 glances. Every turn. Your 4+ save cuts that down to only 3 rolls on the damage table, total. . . which is better, but still bad for you. Remember, Skimmers moving fast are destroyed when immobilized, so your odds of losing one vehicle per turn to each squad of Lootas on the table are pretty damn good. And these are 48" range, you're NOT going to be able to stay out of range of them unless you just want to crowd into the opposite corner and give up the game. And, of course, if you jump over to assault the Lootas you're going to have to come to them, and the horde is going to give whoever you send a right good kickin'.

So by all means, take your chances.

+1 to this

Moral of the story.

Orks are never beaten.

bombboy1252 wrote:Moral of the story.

Orks are never beaten.

If we win den we winz, If we die we was killed in battle so it don't count! And If we runz away den we just get annuver go at it later den!

Apologies, my mathhammer above was off because I forgot that Deffguns are not twin-linked. D'oh!

Nothing says Area Denial like a green tide. Nid megaswarm or IG blobfest..

By turn 3 it's entirely possible to leave the army with nowhere to go, forcing them to blow holes in your forces just to move at all.

Eldar are zoomy little gits (i play DE, and my wife playes Craftworlder) but they can't fire if they are powerrzooming, making that Wave Serpent/Raider a superfast annoyance rather than a threat if it keeps doing this.. To be used as anything but a roadblock they have to stay below 12'', which makes them vulnerable, though flickerfields or Holofields can keep them ticking for a bit..


Iranna: You are a good Eldar player Nonetheless an army that spends all it's time zooming elsewhere is an army that isn't hurting the orks that occupy more and more of the table turn by turn, unless you are going for a tiurnament tactic where you kill a couple of units at range, and then play keep-away the rest of the match

Iranna wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:

Really? Speed is an issue? When Orks have a specially designed clan called SPEED FREEKS? Nob Bikers, Trukks, Deffkoptas, Buggies (heck even Battlewagons). If that's struggling with speed, I'm playing the wrong race. Orks aren't just a foot army....

Even foot sloggin' lists don't really struggle. Take some Lootas and some Suicide Koptas and everything the Eldar bring is going to end up on foot right quick.

Can all your tanks move 36" in one turn? Can your bikes move 30" in one turn?

That's great, when you're hitting on 5s and penning on 5s and I get my 4+ Cover save. I'll take my chances.

Iranna.

Yay! You moved 36" and can't do anything else. Bikes can still move far enough and get in range to shoot.

Tanks, OK you got us there. But bringing Ghazzy gives us an effective 27" range of assault anytime after the 1st turn.

Yes, Eldar have mobility, but that's the factions selling point, Eldar strategy is SPECIFICALLY their mobility. You said the Orks are weak in that regard, and compared to Eldar, who isn't? You stated that they struggle with speed, which is not the case at all.

Orks may not be as strong as Eldar when it comes to mobility, but the codex has plenty of things to deal with it without having to tailor a list specifically against it.

Even on foot, if the game has objectives Star Engines aren't going to get you any closer to them when there's 30 boyz camped on it in full 2" coherency.

King Crow wrote:My big problem was that people say they are crap in shooting, which is true if we're talking accuracy, but the amount of firepower orks put out is devasting. They also don't have terrible guns.

That' what I'm saying. I'd rather take a weapon for my Eldar or Marines with more shots rather than a weapon with one shot that hits most of the time.

Yeah, more dice, more possibilities.

Everyone gears up to fight tank and transport spam, but then can't beat a couple hundred models.

My favorite experience with this was when my store hosted a tournament and I made a BT list with 27 str9 shots to fight the local meta armoured cav spam, with 9 of those being str8>9 tankhunter shots that worked to great effect vs an Eldar player. We had this one guy that's a national competitive player that has been to the Ard Boyz Finals the last few years show up with a Ork list that included like 4, 1 gallon bags of Boyz. He slaughtered everyone and won easily, luckily I didn't have to fight him, because I probably would have been boarded by turn 3.

riplikash wrote:I think orks are also very dangerous due to the current metagame. Everyone is trying to kill vehicles (especially transports), space marines, and termy equivalents. That is a situation that very much favors orks.

On paper most armies can fairly easily create a build to beat an ork army. In practice if you do that you will lose to everyone else. So orks get to run amok.

A hundred time this.

Everybody brings AP1-2-3 weapon, power weapon up the wazoo and meltas... and as an ork, you don't really care.

I've won with ease the league at my FLGS last year mainly because by playing a green tide, I was the rock to everybody's scissors. It takes a pretty specific type of army (almost tailored) for a lot of codex to stand a chance against a Green Tide.

Tarkand wrote:

riplikash wrote:I think orks are also very dangerous due to the current metagame. Everyone is trying to kill vehicles (especially transports), space marines, and termy equivalents. That is a situation that very much favors orks.

On paper most armies can fairly easily create a build to beat an ork army. In practice if you do that you will lose to everyone else. So orks get to run amok.

A hundred time this.

Everybody brings AP1-2-3 weapon, power weapon up the wazoo and meltas... and as an ork, you don't really care.

I've won with ease the league at my FLGS last year mainly because by playing a green tide, I was the rock to everybody's scissors. It takes a pretty specific type of army (almost tailored) for a lot of codex to stand a chance against a Green Tide.

I came up with my 2 LrC, 3 potms Vindicator build because of the Green Tide, turns out that it's decent against a lot of other builds too so that's all I run now.

Ran 2000 pts green tide against a 2000 pts tervigonspam nidswarm yesterday.

EPIC numbers of models on the field

Brother Coa wrote:

King Crow wrote:
Plus the fact that Orks are as tough as a Space Marine.

Only in melee, on range they are as fragile as Guardsman.

Orks are Toughness 4 everywhere.

Orks are a very good army, especially for their age. They're one of my favorite codices in the game, along with Dark Eldar and vanilla Space Marines. They're fun, fluffy, and while they don't have builds on par with some GK and IG builds, they're competitive. I love the Ork codex.