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I honestly disagree with most of the things that he's suggested [OP] I don't think we should be allowed to take assault marines as troops, that's blood angel's territory. I don't think terminators should be troops, that's dark angels territory.

I don't disagree with the devs in elites slot though, but they're not truly elites, so it is't very kosher.

I like the idea of iron hands, but they're fairly simmilar to salamanders, no? They have a simmilar forge people thing going for them. very adeptus mechanicus and all that.

hopefully, we'll get stormraven - I'd love to have a flying vehicle in my army, and three of those would look mighty impresive going past my current fleet of tanks and speeders.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:
The other thing I would like to see "Tactica" abilities (similar to number 1 on the list). What I mean by that is put a point cost on the Chapter tactics abilities, and allow the Captain/Chapter Master/ Chaplain/Librarian access. For example make Pedro's Chapter tactics +5 points, or Vulkan's Twin-linking chapter tactics +10 points. This allows us to field a chapter without paying a special character tax.

Agreed with the concept, but by the Emperor I hope you just pulled some random numbers for examples, because 10 points for Vulkan's CT is grossly undercosted.

I pulled random numbers to give the idea, but is it really that under cost? Take Vulkan and price him out, wargear alone he's 195 points (Taking the standard price of 15 points for master crafting the spear, artificer armor, digital weapons, relic blade, guessing 10 points for the heavy flamer, and a storm shield). He doesn't pay anything for the upgrade himself. Keep in mind to buy the chapter tactics, the marines lose a powerful ability as it is in the form of Combat Tactics. I actually find more use for combat tactics than I do for vulkan's tactics in games lately because chapter tactics makes the entire army better, not buffs certain weapons.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:
The other thing I would like to see "Tactica" abilities (similar to number 1 on the list). What I mean by that is put a point cost on the Chapter tactics abilities, and allow the Captain/Chapter Master/ Chaplain/Librarian access. For example make Pedro's Chapter tactics +5 points, or Vulkan's Twin-linking chapter tactics +10 points. This allows us to field a chapter without paying a special character tax.

Agreed with the concept, but by the Emperor I hope you just pulled some random numbers for examples, because 10 points for Vulkan's CT is grossly undercosted.

I pulled random numbers to give the idea, but is it really that under cost? Take Vulkan and price him out, wargear alone he's 195 points (Taking the standard price of 15 points for master crafting the spear, artificer armor, digital weapons, relic blade, guessing 10 points for the heavy flamer, and a storm shield). He doesn't pay anything for the upgrade himself. Keep in mind to buy the chapter tactics, the marines lose a powerful ability as it is in the form of Combat Tactics. I actually find more use for combat tactics than I do for vulkan's tactics in games lately because chapter tactics makes the entire army better, not buffs certain weapons.

Yes, 10 points for TL Melta, Flamers and Thunder Hammers is grossly underpriced. You do realize that Meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapons in the game, yes?

You mean bar the Multimelta and D weapons? How about the Meltacannon( Titan version)?

Str 10
AP 1
Rg 120"
5" blast primary weapon?

Always rolls 2D6+Str 10for AP if under ther marker, and rolls 3D6+10 if under the hole? Nah, 12" Str 8, AP 1 Melta is better! lol.

Deadshot wrote:You mean bar the Multimelta and D weapons? How about the Meltacannon( Titan version)?

Str 10
AP 1
Rg 120"
5" blast primary weapon?

Always rolls 2D6+Str 10for AP if under ther marker, and rolls 3D6+10 if under the hole? Nah, 12" Str 8, AP 1 Melta is better! lol.

If we're going to be rude, then I'm going to point you at the Vortex Support Missile and kindly tell you to shut the gak up. Besides, for the price of that Meltacannon, you get 375 henchmen with meltaguns or 119 Sternguard Veterans with meltaguns in Drop Pods, split up over 12 squads. What do you think is better at blowing up enemy tanks? Your one Meltacannon or the 119 BS4 meltaguns?

Hey, In wasn't trying to be rude. It was just a joke that there are better AT weapons than a Meltagun. That's why here is an lol at the end.

Just while we are on the topic, my meltacannon is mounted on an Emperor Titan, and is armed with another one, a pair of Volcano Cannons, a Vengeance Cannon, Hellstorm Cannon and 2 Vortex Missiles on AV 14/14/13 with 12SP.

I win. Lol.

Am I the only person that believes that the space marines have about enough fan service at the moment?

I can agree that certain beloved chapters have fallen by the wayside, and trying to cram as many into the main 'dex cuts a couple corners, but just look how much marine players get in terms of options and fluff already.

Who else gets a million options and alternatives for what their dreadnaught units are going to turn out like?

Seems right now that loyalist marine players have it pretty good. I guess there is probably good reason for this, but it doesn't feel like it's appreciated.

Deadshot wrote:Hey, In wasn't trying to be rude. It was just a joke that there are better AT weapons than a Meltagun. That's why here is an lol at the end.

Just while we are on the topic, my meltacannon is mounted on an Emperor Titan, and is armed with another one, a pair of Volcano Cannons, a Vengeance Cannon, Hellstorm Cannon and 2 Vortex Missiles on AV 14/14/13 with 12SP.

I win. Lol.

Okay, then I take MY Imperator Titan with double Venegance Cannons and 6 Vortex Support Missiles! Ha!


On a side note, I still think the Sternguard Veterans in the Pods would kill more vehicles than your Imperator. Mine would break the game with 6 Vortices in one turn though.

Thouh anything within 36" would be safe. Taking into accouint maximum scater and template size.




Anyway, we were off topic there. Time to stop.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Well let's see, I agree with toning down storm shields. I think giving them a 4++ vs. shooting, and a 3++ in cc would actually tone them down nicely without becoming an iron halo on crack. I'd say we need more a price decrease for ven dreads than more options, maybe 20 points less. 50 points is a lot to pay for +1 WS, BS, and a reroll on damage.


On to a few things I would like to see now. Captain's that can be equipped with scout armor. I could certainly see a lot of scout company captains being equipped with scout armor to better teach them practical application. Make it something like:
May exchange their power armor for Scout Armor, Scouts USR and Infiltrate USR- Free.


The other thing I would like to see "Tactica" abilities (similar to number 1 on the list). What I mean by that is put a point cost on the Chapter tactics abilities, and allow the Captain/Chapter Master/ Chaplain/Librarian access. For example make Pedro's Chapter tactics +5 points, or Vulkan's Twin-linking chapter tactics +10 points. This allows us to field a chapter without paying a special character tax.

I would love to be able to take Captains with Scout Armour. Maybe open up other weapons options for that as well, such as Stalker Pattern Boltguns and special Sniper Rifles.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I honestly disagree with most of the things that he's suggested [OP] I don't think we should be allowed to take assault marines as troops, that's blood angel's territory. I don't think terminators should be troops, that's dark angels territory.

I don't disagree with the devs in elites slot though, but they're not truly elites, so it is't very kosher.

The Captain allowing certain unit force organization switching is for chapters which do deploy some of their Companies as entire units. Dark Angels probably are not the only chapters which field their entire First Company as a whole battle force and, all in all, the Dark Angels just need better units period (maybe pull a Blood Angels and allow a certain type of Terminator Squad always allowed to be Troops). Blood Angels get Assault Squads regardless of your Headquarters choice, where as in this scenario you would have to take a Captain equipped with a Jump Pack in order to obtain such an option (representing that the Captain leads a company that primarily consists of Assault Squads or very heavy Assault tactics).

As for Devs as Elites, I put it that way because Devs as Troops just seems way too good, even if you were required to take full squads of 10 it would still seem way too good to get that 4 Heavy Weapons for a Troops choice. Hence why I took a page from GW and slotted them in the Elites and Heavy Support sections instead of Troops and Heavy Support.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, 10 points for TL Melta, Flamers and Thunder Hammers is grossly underpriced. You do realize that Meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapons in the game, yes?

Meltaguns are not the best anti-tank weapon in the game, calling something the best is completely subjective. Is a meltagun better for killing a landspeeder or is a lascannon? What's better against a land raider? It's all about using the proper weapon that you have in play on the proper target. The fact that they have the good chance of destroying a land raider (at extremely close range, which means taking a charge from the termies that pop out) does not make them the best anti-tank weapon in the game, it makes them a good heavy armor vehicle killer ( AV 13-14). Keep in mind they are still limited by range, where as something like a Railgun doesn't need to be up close and personal. At 48" I'd rather have a tactical squad with a Missile launcher than one with a meltagun, even moving 12" per turn I have at least 3 turns of shooting with said ML to do something, and remember 5 of the 6 damage results prevent the vehicle from moving the next turn. Why put myself in range to take an assault when I can stall them while I destroy other parts of my opponents army?

Anyways this isn't tactics so I'll move on to making an amendment, if they make it only Captains and Chapter masters that can take the "Tactica" ability, that suddenly makes them a 100 point tax to get that special rule, plus the cost of the ability. It makes it so that a Chapter Master and Captain become a support choice similar to how a librarian or chaplain is right now.

Assault Lascannons that count as Power Weapons in CC free on all troops!

Not just for Marines, but all models.

Units that gain an additional attack in CC from a pistol make this extra attack with the Str and AP of the pistol.


It just always seemed wierd to be that if I stand 1" away from a guy I disintergrate him with my Infernus Pistol, but if I am next to him he can take his 3+ save.

Durza wrote:Tone down the Ultramarine theme.

That would be sweet, the haters would rejoice! Then find new stuff to hate...


(I don't like all the "Ultramarines are #1" theme in this book either tho)

I'd love to see the Ultramarines theme toned down, or (and I know some people will be upset by this idea) just give them their own codex and get it over with.

I would love to see a little FNP. I have a feeling that "one of the space marine codexes" will mean CSM. Looked at that codex the other day and it is a bit dated, and technically they are space marines.

ChorusLucia wrote:I'd love to see the Ultramarines theme toned down, or (and I know some people will be upset by this idea) just give them their own codex and get it over with.

Best idea I've heard in a while. Have an Ultramarines Codex and a Space Marine Codex. Ultramarines could get all the special character they wanted and all the juicy units they want (including some Tyrannic War Veterans again) and the generic Space Marine Codex would have a wider array of Special Characters and rules for making your own chapter (traits, perks, whatever). Maybe include a few different pages of Psychic Powers for the generic Marine Codex too so your chapter can pick from one (and only one) of the lists.

ChorusLucia wrote:I'd love to see the Ultramarines theme toned down, or (and I know some people will be upset by this idea) just give them their own codex and get it over with.

Actually, giving them their own codex might be a good idea, cause then the Ultramarine fanboys will have their own place for mary sues,
and then people like me, who like space marines, but dont want to read about how one chapter is #1 can have another codex and read about other chapters.
Though of course, this will never happen because the rules would be pretty much the same and it will waste a bunch of time/money on gws part.

Dreadnoughts become a single entry with the current options.

Can upgrade to Ironclad for 30 points. Swaps all weapons for Seismic Hammer with built in Meltagun and DCCW with Stormbolter. Unlocks the current Ironclad options.

Any dreadnought may upgrade to a Venerable dreadnought for 60 points. Venerable gives WS5 and BS5 and Venerable special rule.

Chaplain and Librarian Dreadnoughts add as HQ choice. Both have Venerable special rule in addition to their own goodies.


Chapter Traits come back as they were before. have them replace Chapter Tactics as they are now, basically allowing unique chapter options without having to take Special Characters.

1st Tactical squad weapon upgrade allowed at 5 models with second weapon unlocked at 10 models like 4th ed codex. Heavy Flamer added as option.

Command Squads unlocked by Librarians and Chaplains as well as Captains. Squad may upgrade to Terminator armor and have Terminator options for 20 points each.

Stormraven gets added.

Terminators can take Drop Pods as transports.

Honor Guards all gain 5+ invuln.

If I had to pick three things and only three things, they'd be...

1) Bring back chapter customization through some kind of Traits or Perks system.

2) More options for certain units. Right now the unnamed vanilla Chapter Masters and other IC are just...boring, and there's really no way to make them interesting at the moment. Bring back something like Artifacts/Relics and maybe have something akin to Sagas for Chapter Masters only (keep wide-spread use of this trait to Space Wolves) and call it something like Chapter Pride. Also units like Honour Guard are pretty boring right now and could use a lot more options. I'd also like to see the Mounted Assault expanded upon into other types of units as I stated in my previous post as part of an effort to bring more diversity to the unnamed IC options. Maybe bring back HQ options for 3 Wound Chaplains, Librarians, and Masters of the Forge.

3) Just general fixing of the usefulness or over-usefulness of some units. Making Terminators more appealing in comparison to Assault Terminators, for example (or simply just changing the way Storm Shields work). Making repairing via Techmarine or Master of the Forge more useful and flow better with the game. Just various stuff like that.

Marik Law wrote:If I had to pick three things and only three things, they'd be...

1) Bring back chapter customization through some kind of Traits or Perks system.

2) More options for certain units. Right now the unnamed vanilla Chapter Masters and other IC are just...boring, and there's really no way to make them interesting at the moment. Bring back something like Artifacts/Relics and maybe have something akin to Sagas for Chapter Masters only (keep wide-spread use of this trait to Space Wolves) and call it something like Chapter Pride. Also units like Honour Guard are pretty boring right now and could use a lot more options. I'd also like to see the Mounted Assault expanded upon into other types of units as I stated in my previous post as part of an effort to bring more diversity to the unnamed IC options. Maybe bring back HQ options for 3 Wound Chaplains, Librarians, and Masters of the Forge.

3) Just general fixing of the usefulness or over-usefulness of some units. Making Terminators more appealing in comparison to Assault Terminators, for example (or simply just changing the way Storm Shields work). Making repairing via Techmarine or Master of the Forge more useful and flow better with the game. Just various stuff like that.

I agree with all of these. the current SM dex is just too. . . . flat, boring, ultramarized. In the BA codex, honour guard can have jump packs. i know they are blood angels and they love to buzz around with them, but im fairly sure that if their captain had a jump pack a command squad of any stripe would don on the jump packs to better protect their liege. I dislike the fact that you have to buy a special character to customize your army in terms of special rules and the fact they left out most of the interesting chapters ( not saying the ones in there arn't interesting), what about the Iron Hands, Blood Ravens, Astral Knights and Silver Skulls?? just making the dex more of a all round codex would be amazing. having a host of special characters for not just the ultramarines, having more customizable captains and chapter masters would be awesome.

Not saying there isn't good things in the dex now, there are quite a few good things but not enough to make up for the shortfall in other areas.

AND BRING BACK THE DEATHWATCH!

I recently purchased the Space Marine Codex and it is a tad over the top with the UltraMarine love, but before we go down that road keep in mind how many people you know that play Ultras. I only know one. I know there a lot of marine players at my shop and they play various chapters. Some with thier own codexes like blood angels, but many just play regular marines.

My point is....yes the ultramarine story line is a bit tough, but before you call everyone that plays ultras the "ultra fanboy" I think that your actual beef should be with GW. It is someone on that side of the pond that has written all this stuff. The majority of the marines in my area are RED (BA), BLACK (BT), Frost Blue (SW.)

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:If I had to pick three things and only three things, they'd be...

1) Bring back chapter customization through some kind of Traits or Perks system.

2) More options for certain units. Right now the unnamed vanilla Chapter Masters and other IC are just...boring, and there's really no way to make them interesting at the moment. Bring back something like Artifacts/Relics and maybe have something akin to Sagas for Chapter Masters only (keep wide-spread use of this trait to Space Wolves) and call it something like Chapter Pride. Also units like Honour Guard are pretty boring right now and could use a lot more options. I'd also like to see the Mounted Assault expanded upon into other types of units as I stated in my previous post as part of an effort to bring more diversity to the unnamed IC options. Maybe bring back HQ options for 3 Wound Chaplains, Librarians, and Masters of the Forge.

3) Just general fixing of the usefulness or over-usefulness of some units. Making Terminators more appealing in comparison to Assault Terminators, for example (or simply just changing the way Storm Shields work). Making repairing via Techmarine or Master of the Forge more useful and flow better with the game. Just various stuff like that.

I agree with all of these. the current SM dex is just too. . . . flat, boring, ultramarized. In the BA codex, honour guard can have jump packs. i know they are blood angels and they love to buzz around with them, but im fairly sure that if their captain had a jump pack a command squad of any stripe would don on the jump packs to better protect their liege. I dislike the fact that you have to buy a special character to customize your army in terms of special rules and the fact they left out most of the interesting chapters ( not saying the ones in there arn't interesting), what about the Iron Hands, Blood Ravens, Astral Knights and Silver Skulls?? just making the dex more of a all round codex would be amazing. having a host of special characters for not just the ultramarines, having more customizable captains and chapter masters would be awesome.

Not saying there isn't good things in the dex now, there are quite a few good things but not enough to make up for the shortfall in other areas.

AND BRING BACK THE DEATHWATCH!

Indeed.

I'd love to see Chapter Masters (generic) get some kind of Chapter Pride-like trait (similar to Sagas but only available for the Chapter Master to keep the Saga-like trait more Space Wolves kinda thing), while Captains get some kind of Command trait. Perhaps offer them a choice of being able to take stuff like Bikes, Assault Marines, or Terminators as Troops choice (bar he have appropriate wargear) at the cost of not being able to take another Command trait (which could have some very attractive options). Bring back Master Crafted option and Bionics (Feel No Pain but only on a 5+) but only for IC and not for basic Sergeants or anything (maybe Bionics for Sergeants, but not Master Crafted). Then just top that off with IC being able to take up to two Relics and boom, all of a sudden IC are way more interesting again.

MakersHitstheMark wrote:I recently purchased the Space Marine Codex and it is a tad over the top with the UltraMarine love, but before we go down that road keep in mind how many people you know that play Ultras. I only know one. I know there a lot of marine players at my shop and they play various chapters. Some with thier own codexes like blood angels, but many just play regular marines.

My point is....yes the ultramarine story line is a bit tough, but before you call everyone that plays ultras the "ultra fanboy" I think that your actual beef should be with GW. It is someone on that side of the pond that has written all this stuff. The majority of the marines in my area are RED (BA), BLACK (BT), Frost Blue (SW.)

I don't think there's any hate going on here, but there's just too much love in a Codex where the love is supposed to be spread around a bit. In my opinion they can keep the Special Characters they have already, but just expand on the special character options for other chapters.

Every SM player I know has had Ultrasm at one point or another. Including me, though thankfully it qwas a badly paintd squad and DoW 2 (Novel by Chris Robinson), convinced me of repainting them Blood Ravens. My own brother paints Ultras, but that is only cause I encouraged it. I simply didn't want to have to figure a way to paint his design and buy correct colours, when his paint starter pack gave him 5 marines, along with a Ultra painting guide and the 8 colours he would need, inclding a wash and 2 foundations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, there is this one kid, about 10 yrs old, who genuinely belivs Ultramrines are superior to anything and everything. Deathwatch? Nope, Smurfs beat 'em.

Blood Ravens<Ultras.
SW
DA
BA
BT
GK
IH
IF
CF
Sallies with Vulkan.
Deathwatch.
Even angry marines.




Eventually, I got fed up. He has a Finecast Calgar, and he claims his finecrack (This particular cast was really bad) was far superior to anything I had, including my own, perfectly sculpted pewter Calgar.

So, running Calgar alone, I sent a Drteadknight, Draigo, 5 Pallies, a Libby and an Interceptor squad on him. Clearly he dies first turn. But the poor kid nearly had an anurism. He actually said that without Calgar, his Sicarius with Command Squad contigent would be useless, and with drew the rest of his Vendreads, Sternguard and Land Raiders.>

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

Cyrax wrote:
Tactical Squad plasma cannon used to be DA only.[/list]

I really hope they don't go back to this. Mainly because I've spent ages painting Plasma Cannon marines and putting tactical markings on them!

This would have to be my biggest hope, that the generic list building doesn't remove options that people have spent time and money creating...

Other than that I'd love to see more independent characters from a wider range of Chapters,

options currently only available through Imperial Armour, such as Chaplain dreads (Not so much contemptors, great model, but why would you take the current 40K range dread if you could field a contemptor?),

geordie09 wrote:

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

Cyrax wrote:
Tactical Squad plasma cannon used to be DA only.[/list]

I really hope they don't go back to this. Mainly because I've spent ages painting Plasma Cannon marines and putting tactical markings on them!

This would have to be my biggest hope, that the generic list building doesn't remove options that people have spent time and money creating...

Other than that I'd love to see more independent characters from a wider range of Chapters,

options currently only available through Imperial Armour, such as Chaplain dreads (Not so much contemptors, great model, but why would you take the current 40K range dread if you could field a contemptor?),

easy, make contemptors a heavy support unit. problem solved

Even SMs out. I think everyone wants the same thing: more characters from other chapters, to lessen the Ultramarines presence/make them equal to other chapters in a fluff/character way. Although, Ultramarines are basically the face of GW.

Me? I think Conversion Beamers for SM Devs would be awesome.

If the Chaos Legion rumours are true, I'd love for the Space Marine codex to do something similar.

What I'm talking about is having a barebones Ultramarines/Codex list you can follow which has access to the most units, but doesn't have very strong or many special rules. Then, instead of Chapter Traits, they could have a few permutations based on several chapters.

For the standard Codex/Ultramarines permutation, you'd pretty much get unrestricted access to most every unit (some permutations may get access to a single exclusive unit) and has some cool Independent Character special rules (like an improved Mounted Assault rule which lets you take different squads as Troops depending on your Captain's wargear and the Master of the Forge having his Dreadnought special rule, however both of these rules are lost if you take a Permutation).

For example, if you took the Salamanders permutation you may lose out on a good chunk of Fast Attack units, but you'd get things like...
- Stubborn
- Master-crafted thunder hammers.
- Twin-linked hand flamers, flamers, heavy flamers, inferno pistols, meltaguns, and multi-meltas.
- Beefier/Better standard Terminators that can take Thunder Hammers.
- Vehicles can take ceramite armour (immune to Melta special rule) or maybe all vehicles just have it right off the bat for Salamanders permutation.
- Etc

Or Raven Guard, you'd probably lose some of your clunkier units and certain other clunkier units like Dreadnoughts would become Heavy Support, but you'd get things like...
- Stealth
- Master-crafted lightning claws.
- Assault Squads count as Troops.
- Beefier/better Vanguard Veteran Squads.
- Various types of squads being able to take Jump Packs.
- Better deep strike rules when using jump packs, drop pods, and thunderhawks.
- Etc


This way, GW could balance the permutations so there is less abuse while, at the same time, giving players more options to customize their army than just the barebones list.

If they did this, chapters I'd like to see represented with permutations are White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Blood Ravens (maybe have some kind of 1-wound Psychic unit that you can take three of as a single Elites choice and having access to a 3-wound Librarian), Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists.

Scouts having the Land Speeder Storm for a dedicated transport.

If not then it should be a 1-3 per unit like the regular land speeder.