Necron CC deathstar. Untenable or pure awesomesauce?

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**Unit1126PLL**

don't forget in my deathstar the cryptek re-roll on one of the saves / reanimation protocols rolls.

EDIT: Also, good luck kiting them - they have the same assault range as a unit in a Land Raider.

EDIT2: Also, warscythes with Furious Charge on Str 5 models = very very dead paladins.

**thakabalpuphorsefishguy**

Razorspirit wrote:Wait... furious charge grants +1 to S and I? I thought it was to WS and I. Have I misread?

Yes you did!

**Rephistorch**

Unit1126PLL wrote:don't forget in my deathstar the cryptek re-roll on one of the saves / reanimation protocols rolls.

EDIT: Also, good luck kiting them - they have the same assault range as a unit in a Land Raider.

EDIT2: Also, warscythes with Furious Charge on Str 5 models = very very dead paladins.

1. Psycannons eat your transport (roughly 2 pens a turn, and after the first pen, 3.5 pens and ~2 glances)
2. You get kited (not so negligible if you include both the psycannons and the storm bolters)
3. You strike second in CC
4. We will have blind/psychotroke + brotherhood banner
5. Necrons die

Paladins are super-awesome at CC, and necrons should probably stick to shooting and eating vehicles with scarabs.

**King Pariah**

Yeah yeah yeah, and then we have mindshackle scarabs... have fun with that sucka

**Amaya**

There are no viable Deathstars in the game outside of Draigo, a Librarian, and 4 Paladins in a LR/Stormraven.

**Unit1126PLL**

Amaya wrote:There are no viable Deathstars in the game outside of Draigo, a Librarian, and 4 Paladins in a LR/Stormraven.

Deathstar - I don't think it means what you think it means.

Either that or you're wrong, I run a Black Templars deathstar that has beaten that "deathstar" on more than one occasion.

**tiekwando**

Inconceivable!

**Enigma Crisis**

I don't think you know what that word means.

**Amaya**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Amaya wrote:There are no viable Deathstars in the game outside of Draigo, a Librarian, and 4 Paladins in a LR/Stormraven.

Deathstar - I don't think it means what you think it means.

Either that or you're wrong, I run a Black Templars deathstar that has beaten that "deathstar" on more than one occasion.

10 Terminators /w FC, mix of LC and TH/SS, led by a Chaplain? It's probably the best melee counter in the game to any variation of a Draigostar, but it's not viable build for winning tournaments.

**Unit1126PLL**

Nope. Command squad, Marshal with storm shield and lightning claw, terminator honors, etc. Master of Sanctity with Crozius and terminator honors. Three techmarines with stormshields, thunder hammers, terminator honors, and servo-harnesses. Command squad has powerfists where possible (four of them), as well as the kit such as apothecary, standard bearer with chapter banner, and company champion.

The techmarines by themselves put out 18 instant-death, armor-save ignoring attacks with preferred enemy if they get to swing on the charge, and draigo plus librarian plus four paladins is 13? attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s - so if they exclusively attack the techmarines, they do ~7 wounds, of which all but ~2 are saved. EDIT3: Also the IC rules for CQB might mean those two saves are both failed on the same model, depending on how the Pallies allocate their attacks.

Unless the squad saves a power for activating their force weapons instead of Hammerhand, then it's wounding on 3s so they only do ~5 wounds of which all but ~2 are saved, meaning at least one techmarine gets to swing. Mastery level of the librarian probably means they can save the power without this penalty.

The odds change dramatically if Draigo + friends put any wounds on the command squad - if I am tactical with my Techmarines, draigo and the librarian can't attack them.

EDIT: provided one techmarine lives to swing at Pallie squad:

Six swings with preferred enemy hitting on fours is 4.5 hits. Wounding on 2s is ~4 wounds. With swords, that's 2 dead paladins (so if the enemy killed two techmarines, combat is tied). With halberds, it's closer to 3 dead paladins.

Don't forget also that the command squad has powerfists and lightning claws, just to bend the combat result in its favor.

EDIT2: They all ride in a Godhammer Land Raider, or they steal one of the initiate squads' Crusaders if really necessary.

**Rephistorch**

King Pariah wrote:Yeah yeah yeah, and then we have mindshackle scarabs... have fun with that sucka

Yeah, and I've fought against those. Rolling under 10 on 3d6 is definitely not impossible.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Nope. Command squad, Marshal with storm shield and lightning claw, terminator honors, etc. Master of Sanctity with Crozius and terminator honors. Three techmarines with stormshields, thunder hammers, terminator honors, and servo-harnesses. Command squad has powerfists where possible (four of them), as well as the kit such as apothecary, standard bearer with chapter banner, and company champion.

The techmarines by themselves put out 18 instant-death, armor-save ignoring attacks with preferred enemy if they get to swing on the charge, and draigo plus librarian plus four paladins is 13? attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s - so if they exclusively attack the techmarines, they do ~7 wounds, of which all but ~2 are saved. EDIT3: Also the IC rules for CQB might mean those two saves are both failed on the same model, depending on how the Pallies allocate their attacks.

Unless the squad saves a power for activating their force weapons instead of Hammerhand, then it's wounding on 3s so they only do ~5 wounds of which all but ~2 are saved, meaning at least one techmarine gets to swing. Mastery level of the librarian probably means they can save the power without this penalty.

The odds change dramatically if Draigo + friends put any wounds on the command squad - if I am tactical with my Techmarines, draigo and the librarian can't attack them.

EDIT: provided one techmarine lives to swing at Pallie squad:

Six swings with preferred enemy hitting on fours is 4.5 hits. Wounding on 2s is ~4 wounds. With swords, that's 2 dead paladins (so if the enemy killed two techmarines, combat is tied). With halberds, it's closer to 3 dead paladins.

Don't forget also that the command squad has powerfists and lightning claws, just to bend the combat result in its favor.

EDIT2: They all ride in a Godhammer Land Raider, or they steal one of the initiate squads' Crusaders if really necessary.

How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

**Unit1126PLL**

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

**Dr. Temujin**

Well, here's a suggestion, haven't tried it out obviously, just some TheoryHammer.
To solve the problem of footslogging, you could stick a Veiltek onto the deathstar for mobility's sake, as Kodanshi suggested. The only problem is that they won't be able to assault in the turn they DS, unless 6th edition changes that. Til then, my suggestion would be to take an Overlord (with Res Orb and MSS and maybe a Warscythe) along with a Cryptek only court. HoDespair for the Veil and Abyssal Staff, two Lances with one Gaze of Flame, Stormtek with Lightning Field and a Tremortek. All in all, comes to about 340 points for a relatively cheap, but effective(?) unit.
As an additional investment, perhaps throw in a few Lords with Warscythes and scarabs to combat anyone charging the unit.
Btw, has anyone actually tested their Deathstar ideas on the battlefield yet?

**Rephistorch**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

**Unit1126PLL**

Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

**omerakk**

I love it when people star comparing deathstars. It's like watching two people argue over which turd smells worse

**Rephistorch**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

**Unit1126PLL**

Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

THERE YOU GO! Now just add a troop and run it!

**Rephistorch**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

THERE YOU GO! Now just add a troop and run it!

Indeed. I may just run this list soon... Perhaps slightly modified so as to fit in 1 or 2 land raiders. Will probably suck against most lists, but will absolutely disintegrate any squads unfortunate enough to get too close.

**bucheonman**

Throw out the theoryhammer and mathhammer. Play the list and see what it does.

A guy played a 10 man lychguard squad with sowrds and shields against me, with a lord w/ warscythe and mindshackle. Not the full deathstar but supposedly a nasty squad.

My squad of 2 carnifexes (no talons) and 2 tyranid primes w/ lash whips and boneswords ate the squad up in 2 rounds of combat. 1 fex took 2 wounds and one prime died.

**Unit1126PLL**

Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

THERE YOU GO! Now just add a troop and run it!

Indeed. I may just run this list soon... Perhaps slightly modified so as to fit in 1 or 2 land raiders. Will probably suck against most lists, but will absolutely disintegrate any squads unfortunate enough to get too close.

Drop some grenades, add a solodin, and buy a land raider.

**Lucre**

I was very excited when I heard that Ghost arks carrying 8 warriors and 2 warscythe'd lords with their brain bugs were having some success.
Not exactly a deathstar, but a reliable, tricksy and versatile scoring unit. Not to mention a way to make use of all those really juicy fluffy bits the necrons have that are hard to put together in a useful way most days.

**ShadarLogoth**

Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Just for funsies, a fully geeked Royal Court with two fully geeked Overlords would probably bitch pwn that unit.

An entire unit of 2+/3++/RP 4+ with 7 MSS and 7 T-Labs should kill anything in the game, assuming we all magically show up in CC. 3 to 4 of the Paladins attacking their own units and another 2 to 3 of them getting sucked in by the T-Labs will certainly work to the Cronies favour.

**Rephistorch**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:
Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Just for funsies, a fully geeked Royal Court with two fully geeked Overlords would probably bitch pwn that unit.

An entire unit of 2+/3++/RP 4+ with 7 MSS and 7 T-Labs should kill anything in the game, assuming we all magically show up in CC. 3 to 4 of the Paladins attacking their own units and another 2 to 3 of them getting sucked in by the T-Labs will certainly work to the Cronies favour.

Dammit, I think I just got nerd-sniped.

We'll assume I'm charging, and then you're charging separately.

Since I'm fighting against a squad of units who can cause my own troops to hit each other, I only have to boost my strength to 8, and I do not choose to strike at initiative 10.
Well, with some careful positioning, and the random nature of the MSS, you could theoretically get away with much less, but let's just say 3 for this argument. 3 guys get d3 attacks against their own mates, avg of 6. The likelihood of having a halberd or draigo selected for mindshackling is relatively low at ~ 11.7% each, but this also relies on some positioning, so we'll give you 1 halberd.

I 6:
1 halberd strikes with 2 attacks against my own troops, 4's to hit, 2's to wound. Probably 1 wound, allocated to any one of my warding staves (2+ invul), which is saved.

GK Charging:
I 6:
2 halberds strike against you with 4 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, roughly 4+4/9 ID causing wounds (double toughness [Strength 8 vs Toughness 3 and 4 {rad grenades}])
My guess is that you'll remove 4 crypteks (assuming you took them), just to get rid of them.
I 5:
Draigo strikes with 6 attacks 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 ID wounds
probably Another cryptek (none left), plus 3, 3+ saves on lords, one lord dies.
I 4:
2 normal-ish guys strike with 2d3 attacks on my own guys, 4 on average, 4 to hit, 2 to wound, probably 2 wounds, both allocated separately on two different warding staves (2++) (probably saved)
2 normal-ish guys strike with 4 attacks each, 4+4/9 ID wounds (see above)
1.5 lords die
2 falchions strike with 5 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound 3.5 lords take a wound, 2 overlords
1 additional lord dies, 1 overlord probably dies, but we'll calculate at 1+1/3 overlords remaining, for full mathhammer.
2 techmarines strike with 3 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 wounds, 2 more wounds on overlords, 1+1/3 on your lords
another half lord dies, and you are left with a 66% chance of having 1 overlord, but we'll assume he made his save.

I 2:
1 lord and 1 overlord are left. We'll assume that each is in base with a independent character (the only thing that they can use the labyrinths against anyway!)
Draigo passes on a 4-, and he is likely safe, but possibly dead.
Techmarine dies.

I 1:
2 remaining techmarines get 2 S8 servo attacks a piece, resulting in 2+2/9 ID wounds
2 daemon hammer guys get 4 attacks a piece, resulting in 4+4/9 ID wounds
a total of 6+2/3 attacks, 3+1/3 on each remaining model resulting in both of your remaining models to die

At this point, I forgot to roll for the librarian's attacks earlier, but it is irrelevant, as your unit has already been utterly decimated, and you've killed 1 Techmarine, with a possibility of killing Draigo. We're also ignoring Psychotroke grenades which could either have you attacking yourself, striking simultaneously with my Init 1 guys, you getting 1 attack per model, me getting rerolls against your squad, or you being leadership 2.

Yes, half of the necrons will get back up, but way more than half were killed before their initiative step, so they would no longer be a viable fighting force.

I really don't feel like doing the math for you charging, but assuming 1 less attack per model of mine, I'm pretty sure the necrons would still die, horribly. It would probably at least take 2 combat phases though, so they've got that going for them.

Actually, just picture 15 less strikes, since all of my attacks hit/wound the same and cause ID. You would probably have about 2-3 lords & overlords left over at the end of the round of combat, dealing perhaps a wound against the paladins. This result would still probably kill you, as you now have to pass an effective ld 3-4 moral check or be killed in a sweeping advance.

Also, with a decent consolidation roll of at least 3, I could completely block any chances of resurrection.

**ShadarLogoth**

Rephistorch wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:
Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Just for funsies, a fully geeked Royal Court with two fully geeked Overlords would probably bitch pwn that unit.

An entire unit of 2+/3++/RP 4+ with 7 MSS and 7 T-Labs should kill anything in the game, assuming we all magically show up in CC. 3 to 4 of the Paladins attacking their own units and another 2 to 3 of them getting sucked in by the T-Labs will certainly work to the Cronies favour.

Dammit, I think I just got nerd-sniped.

We'll assume I'm charging, and then you're charging separately.

Since I'm fighting against a squad of units who can cause my own troops to hit each other, I only have to boost my strength to 8, and I do not choose to strike at initiative 10.
Well, with some careful positioning, and the random nature of the MSS, you could theoretically get away with much less, but let's just say 3 for this argument. 3 guys get d3 attacks against their own mates, avg of 6. The likelihood of having a halberd or draigo selected for mindshackling is relatively low at ~ 11.7% each, but this also relies on some positioning, so we'll give you 1 halberd.

I 6:
1 halberd strikes with 2 attacks against my own troops, 4's to hit, 2's to wound. Probably 1 wound, allocated to any one of my warding staves (2+ invul), which is saved.

GK Charging:
I 6:
2 halberds strike against you with 4 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, roughly 4+4/9 ID causing wounds (double toughness [Strength 8 vs Toughness 3 and 4 {rad grenades}])
My guess is that you'll remove 4 crypteks (assuming you took them), just to get rid of them.
I 5:
Draigo strikes with 6 attacks 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 ID wounds
probably Another cryptek (none left), plus 3, 3+ saves on lords, one lord dies.
I 4:
2 normal-ish guys strike with 2d3 attacks on my own guys, 4 on average, 4 to hit, 2 to wound, probably 2 wounds, both allocated separately on two different warding staves (2++) (probably saved)
2 normal-ish guys strike with 4 attacks each, 4+4/9 ID wounds (see above)
1.5 lords die
2 falchions strike with 5 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound 3.5 lords take a wound, 2 overlords
1 additional lord dies, 1 overlord probably dies, but we'll calculate at 1+1/3 overlords remaining, for full mathhammer.
2 techmarines strike with 3 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 wounds, 2 more wounds on overlords, 1+1/3 on your lords
another half lord dies, and you are left with a 66% chance of having 1 overlord, but we'll assume he made his save.

I 2:
1 lord and 1 overlord are left. We'll assume that each is in base with a independent character (the only thing that they can use the labyrinths against anyway!)
Draigo passes on a 4-, and he is likely safe, but possibly dead.
Techmarine dies.

I 1:
2 remaining techmarines get 2 S8 servo attacks a piece, resulting in 2+2/9 ID wounds
2 daemon hammer guys get 4 attacks a piece, resulting in 4+4/9 ID wounds
a total of 6+2/3 attacks, 3+1/3 on each remaining model resulting in both of your remaining models to die

At this point, I forgot to roll for the librarian's attacks earlier, but it is irrelevant, as your unit has already been utterly decimated, and you've killed 1 Techmarine, with a possibility of killing Draigo. We're also ignoring Psychotroke grenades which could either have you attacking yourself, striking simultaneously with my Init 1 guys, you getting 1 attack per model, me getting rerolls against your squad, or you being leadership 2.

Yes, half of the necrons will get back up, but way more than half were killed before their initiative step, so they would no longer be a viable fighting force.

I really don't feel like doing the math for you charging, but assuming 1 less attack per model of mine, I'm pretty sure the necrons would still die, horribly. It would probably at least take 2 combat phases though, so they've got that going for them.

Actually, just picture 15 less strikes, since all of my attacks hit/wound the same and cause ID. You would probably have about 2-3 lords & overlords left over at the end of the round of combat, dealing perhaps a wound against the paladins. This result would still probably kill you, as you now have to pass an effective ld 3-4 moral check or be killed in a sweeping advance.

Also, with a decent consolidation roll of at least 3, I could completely block any chances of resurrection.

Good post, I guess with a 1700 point unit such performance should be expected, I had originally looks at the number versus the more popular 800 to 900 Paladin builds.

The charge would favour the crons a bit more then your showing as it would allow optimal placement for MSS on Draigo and the like, although I was also thinking that the T-Labs struck first for some reason and forgot they only worked against IC.

Perhaps rebuilding the cron star with Nemesor and Obyron to take advantage of furious charge so at least the WS is IDing? Also maybe if you could focus the MSS on units that strike at the same initiative+ Draigo to keep the unit from sticking every scattered wound to the 2++?

Yeah you got me, that Pally unit is ridiculous in CC.

**Rephistorch**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Good post, I guess with a 1700 point unit such performance should be expected, I had originally looks at the number versus the more popular 800 to 900 Paladin builds.

The charge would favour the crons a bit more then your showing as it would allow optimal placement for MSS on Draigo and the like, although I was also thinking that the T-Labs struck first for some reason and forgot they only worked against IC.

Perhaps rebuilding the cron star with Nemesor and Obyron to take advantage of furious charge so at least the WS is IDing? Also maybe if you could focus the MSS on units that strike at the same initiative+ Draigo to keep the unit from sticking every scattered wound to the 2++?

Yeah you got me, that Pally unit is ridiculous in CC.

Thanks, it took awhile to write.

The crons have fewer models, so I can at the minimum, position my 3 extra models to make sure that the selection for Draigo or the paladins is random between the good models and the lower Initiative models, but yes, you get a slight bit higher chance of affecting higher Initiative models. Also, there are 3 different 2++ staves, one in the paladins, one in the techmarines, and one on the libby, so I could still probably distribute them.

I would actually like to see a competing (non-GK Paladin) unit in this game. This is an open invitation to nerd snipe me. Can anyone else suggest a unit that would have a chance against the proposed GK squad?

**Kodanshi**

bucheonman wrote:Throw out the theoryhammer and mathhammer. Play the list and see what it does.

A guy played a 10 man lychguard squad with sowrds and shields against me, with a lord w/ warscythe and mindshackle. Not the full deathstar but supposedly a nasty squad.

My squad of 2 carnifexes (no talons) and 2 tyranid primes w/ lash whips and boneswords ate the squad up in 2 rounds of combat. 1 fex took 2 wounds and one prime died.

Yeah, that’s what Initiative 2 does to you…

**Ruarinator2**

Not too sure the unit you first mentioned is an "awesomesauce" cc unit, but as others have mentioned, a royal court may be better with 3+ invulnerable sv's and 2+ armour sv's and a res orb in their somewhere is not just cheaper but has more durability too. Add in an electro cryptek and you have a very decent "awesomesauce" unit.

**Rephistorch**

But that unit sucks at shooting, and isn't actually THAT much more durable. I have a 2+, 3++ on Draigo, and 2+, 5++ saves on all the paladins + feel no pain. In close combat, there are 3 warding staves (2++), a few normal swords (4++), and most models are at least 2 wounds a piece.

**ShadarLogoth**

Ruarinator2 wrote:Not too sure the unit you first mentioned is an "awesomesauce" cc unit, but as others have mentioned, a royal court may be better with 3+ invulnerable sv's and 2+ armour sv's and a res orb in their somewhere is not just cheaper but has more durability too. Add in an electro cryptek and you have a very decent "awesomesauce" unit.

Oh hey Rephistorch, he just reminded me that the cron star would be removing the +1 attack on the charge, and granting some lighting strikes, and possibly keep them from charging in the first place, etc etc. A handful of gear from teks would help out a bit, although I don't think it will be enough.