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Dribble Joy wrote:

Rafi wrote:(basically: a powerklaw nob/warboss on a warbike gets +1 attack when they charge from the dakkaguns).

Does that seem right?

Alas not, a PK is a 'coarse weapon' and can only gain an additional attack if the second one is the same.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks!

Whoop, I should quote what I'm replying to, heh.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

MakersHitstheMark wrote:Where has everyone scored copies of these rules from? I'm still pretty new to 5th edition and think that changing things now sucks. When do the new rules get released?

The current edition is effectively 12 years old. 4th and 5th edition were tweaks to the same basic mechanics.

As for the PDF; google is your friend.

AtoMaki wrote:As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

OVERWATCH
Universal, Shooting special rule
If an enemy unit ends a Move action within 12”, a
unit with this ability may perform a Defensive Fire
action and shoot at the intruding unit. If the unit
was assaulted by the enemy it can shoot
nonetheless. If the units lose contact, they
consolidate at the end of the phase as normal.

The Universal tag does NOT mean all units can perform it:

...Universal special rules are conferred
to every model in the unit if at least one
model has this rule....

AtoMaki wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

You're not given permission from anything other than Overwatch to use defensive fire when someone charges you. The "Defensive fire" part in the rules only describe what happens when you use defensive fire, it doesn't give you permission to do it.

the nice thing is if you have 2 30 guy ork units in CC and lose by 10 wounds and both are still fearless. you only lose 10 guys total not 10 guys from each unit.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

You're not given permission from anything other than Overwatch to use defensive fire when someone charges you. The "Defensive fire" part in the rules only describe what happens when you use defensive fire, it doesn't give you permission to do it.

Ahhh... i got it. The bonus DF in the Deep Strike section is kind of confusing (it gave me the idea that i can DF whenever i want).

Honestly I wouldn't hold much to these rumors until more is released.....a lot could change between now and the release. From the sounds of it, we will be playing 40k DnD with all the complications

Where are people getting that KFF won't affect vehicles? I'm not doubting it's in there; I just haven't been able to find it.

Brian P wrote:Where are people getting that KFF won't affect vehicles? I'm not doubting it's in there; I just haven't been able to find it.

I don't know, the cover/vehicle rules are a lot clearer and the KFF clearly states (in the codex update) all models within get a 5+ cover save.
The vehicle rules (or massive rules, can't remember) mention that some older stuff contain the word 'obscured' - this means in cover.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

... Ok since I didn't get much of a responce in the leaked thread, I can ask here What about trukks? Can someone explain if they got better/worse?

KingCracker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

Huh? You cannot assault from deepstrike unless you have a special rule allowing you to (SC lets you for Stormboyz, from memory), and Stormboyz NEVER EVER get Waaaaagh! - first off, the errata removed Waaaagh! from their entry, and secondly even if you ignore that Waaagh! only affects Infantry. JI /= Infantry

Dribble Joy wrote:

MakersHitstheMark wrote:Where has everyone scored copies of these rules from? I'm still pretty new to 5th edition and think that changing things now sucks. When do the new rules get released?

The current edition is effectively 12 years old. 4th and 5th edition were tweaks to the same basic mechanics.

As for the PDF; google is your friend.

Yeah, I went and looked for it last night and couldn't find it. I'll look again for it. Thanks! At least now I know that everyone else is gobbling it up the same way.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:except in CC I see a biker ramming, overrunning and spinning back like a bull never really giving you an opening like a gang of bikers would do to some poor chode...

I'm from Missouri, The show me state. and I think GW would be in a nightmarish storm before they would release the rules in their current incarnation without intense lash back due to them. 40k has never in it's edition changed so drastically I am lead to assume these rules were a shooter armies' desire to be competitive in assualt which if that is the case why make IG even more powerful?

My Prediction? It's a bunch of squig-dung and we should be patient

I also see a biker ramming people with his bike in CC, but that is not how GW writers envisioned it. The "bike" doesn't do damage in CC with bikers, but their close combat weapons using their own strength. Thus my point of leaning off the bike is more appropriate given the way bikers work in CC. I think that bikers should have different rules in CC, because it shouldn't matter how weak or strong you are if you run over someone with a massive bike.

Actually 40k has drastically changed just about every time. The time not was between 4th end 5th which, oddly, was more a revision than a drastic change which is very unusual for GW to do with its rules. Given that IG still stink in CC and this particular change doesn't actually change how well an ork deals with being shot at I don't see this being a shooer armies vs. melee armies kind of thing either. Your typical ork is still going to beat down your typical IG trooper in CC without a problem. Only difference is sitting on that bike isn't making it harder for the IG guy to hurt the Ork if he actually happens to hit in CC.

I do agree, though, that it is likely all BS at this point until a new ediiton is ready. Everyone always posts those "I got this from my friend who really *knows*" prediction posts that turn out to be nothing but someone's wishful thinking.

Skriker

nosferatu1001 wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

Huh? You cannot assault from deepstrike unless you have a special rule allowing you to (SC lets you for Stormboyz, from memory), and Stormboyz NEVER EVER get Waaaaagh! - first off, the errata removed Waaaagh! from their entry, and secondly even if you ignore that Waaagh! only affects Infantry. JI /= Infantry

Doesn't it say that units that Deepstrike may make an Engage move? This would allow them to assault their basic movement after they DS.

It says they can't.

And even if they could, it's not exactly a fantastic situation, since if you're close enough to assault, you're close enough to be shot to ribbons by every single enemy unit within 12" the moment you drop in.

A unit that is deployed via deep strike can be
placed anywhere on the table, as long as no
model is placed within 18” of an enemy model, in
impassable terrain or inside a transport, building
or fortifications that is already on the table. There
are no additional rules than that the unit may
perform no other Move action than Turn, Combat
move and Engage in this turn.

So you can, but you have to be lucky, have a beacon and weather the wall of lead that will come at you.

Personally, I like the patch up rule. It means I don't have to figure out a way to diversify my nob bikers, everybody gets a powerklaw with 1 BP in the unit. Cheaper and more tank busty!

-cgmckenzie

Fafnir wrote:It says they can't.

And even if they could, it's not exactly a fantastic situation, since if you're close enough to assault, you're close enough to be shot to ribbons by every single enemy unit within 12" the moment you drop in.

An engage move is an assault, so you can.

You do have to suffer through defensive fire, but that's only fair. There needs to be some drawback to having the ability to assault anywhere on the table.

So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

KingCracker wrote:So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

There's three ways for a unit to be able to use defensive fire.

1) The unit has the Overwatch special rule, and an enemy ends their move within 12" of them.
2) An enemy deep strikes within 12" of the unit. No special rules are needed, everyone gets this.
3) The unit is blocking an access point to a vehicle when an emergency disembark is performed by the enemy. No special rules needed here either, anyone can do this. You can also opt to do a charge by chance instead in these circumstances.

Posit wrote:

KingCracker wrote:So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

There's three ways for a unit to be able to use defensive fire.

1) The unit has the Overwatch special rule, and an enemy ends their move within 12" of them.
2) An enemy deep strikes within 12" of the unit. No special rules are needed, everyone gets this.
3) The unit is blocking an access point to a vehicle when an emergency disembark is performed by the enemy. No special rules needed here either, anyone can do this. You can also opt to do a charge by chance instead in these circumstances.

To add onto this a little, to further try and demonstrate how inflated of an impact people have made this into:

1) Currently of all the codexes in the update document, Coatez is the only unit that comes with Overwatch. The only other way currently to get it is to get the Strategem "Fire at Will" which gives it to any unit (friend or foe) that is within 3" of an objective.

2) The dangerous side of this is if you deepstrike within 12" of 3 enemy units, all 3 can use DF on you. The upside is, each unit can only use it once a turn in this manner; so if you dropped a second unit within 12" of those enemy units, any of them that used DF on the first guy you dropped are now defenseless against the second guy. In addition to that, things like Drop Pods, Spore Pods, and Heroic Intervention disallow DF against them.

3) Pretty well laid out by Posit. Semi-rare circumstance currently

So yeah...DF is not the bogeyman, out to render all assault lists invalid.

Good, I was hoping it wasnt as bad as people were making it out to be (because people will do that for damn near everything) but at the same time, Im sitting here thinking, ok so my boyz are possibly completely useless in 6th until a codex update

If these rules are legit, I'm a little worried about Orks in general.
I feel like we will either have to completely rework our tactics, or we will see a huge shrink in the number of viable builds.
Right now Kanwall, and Bikers look to be losing their effectiveness in a big way.
Also, does anyone else think that Orks are getting hit with the cover save changes? I rely heavily on cover in most of my games and having all cover go to 5+ is feeling like a big hit.
Especially in a game where most armies I fight have 3+ armor saves and could give a crap about cover anyway.

The entire game is being hit with normal cover being changed to 5+.

Battlewagon Rush is still viable since we still have the same charge ranges, and we'll have more Boyz in combat. Wagons also won't be as easy to kill since AP1 is no longer a +1 by itself, but rather tied into the "-1 if it's a tank, but don't count this if the weapon is AP1 or the tank is open-topped."

Green Tide may actually be viable as well since we can now run a foot with all of our mobs.

AresX8 wrote:The entire game is being hit with normal cover being changed to 5+.

Battlewagon Rush is still viable since we still have the same charge ranges, and we'll have more Boyz in combat. Wagons also won't be as easy to kill since AP1 is no longer a +1 by itself, but rather tied into the "-1 if it's a tank, but don't count this if the weapon is AP1 or the tank is open-topped."

Except that every imperial army has loads of ap3 str 8 pieplates and orks don't (looted wagon still sucks) and they have easier time hitting us than we do them. So they get their 3+ save while we get 5+

And bws have less range (no 2").

In addition all SMs can ingnore our 6+ armor save in cc (chainsword and pistol)

Really now? IG is the only Imperial army that has Battle Cannon pie plates.

We've always had low armor. That's not an issue as we out-number them like we should.

You're REALLY relying on a 6+ to save you in combat? Again, we out-number Marines, so that's not a problem.

I think that the larger issues are:
1. Wound Allocation changes might impact some folks.
2. The reduced impact of the KFF.
3. The reduced impact of cover provided by ranked models in front of you. (Kan Wall)
4. The fact that our open topped tank are now easier to hit because they are a tank and are -1 to the evasion table. Bikes could be awesome though.....you lose the T in CC, but to hit in shooting we will get buffed. +1 for bike, +1 for moving...should make hitting us harder I think.

Really, until the rules are printed and in my hand as a finalized thing it means diddly. Even then if they do a massive change like this there will be several FAQ rounds I suspect.

matphat wrote:I feel like we will either have to completely rework our tactics, or we will see a huge shrink in the number of viable builds.

Of course we will have to re-work Ork tactics. Everybody will have to rework their tactics. This is going to be a new game, a different game, you'll have a new army to learn (without having to buy one), new enemies to learn, new enemies to crush, a brand new Waaagh! And who knows? Mayhap more viable builds will present themselves. I am not worried about anything because I am the Right Hand of Mork as well as the Right Hand of Gork.

Oh yeah, warbiker are going to rock. They're faster than before, even faster during the Waaagh!, harder to hit, can charge outside point blank range, they still have that +4 cover save (where as other bikers lost turbo boost), and that +1 to toughness now affects ID, so biker nobs now need s9 to be oneshot.