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Shadowharte wrote:Sounds like I might actually have to try it, but I have to wait until I can grab 5-6 more venoms I only have 1 atm. My current vehicles count as 3 raiders, 1 venom, 2 ravagers, and 1 jetfighter so I will have to wait a little bit to drop the 250 bucks to grab those

To be honest, I feel that the 3 raiders / 3 Venoms list is perfectly fine. You don't need 5-6 venoms

Shadowharte wrote:Ok if I were to do the TrueBlasters I would need all eight blasters, plus 2 more for the warriors. Do they sell just weapon bits since they do not sell a 'trueborn' boxes and they do not provide more than one blaster per warrior box

You can buy bitz online.
Or probably convert some up out of shredders and whatnot.

This is another idea maybe if y'all think it would be viable
HQ-120
Archon with Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clonefield, and Drugs
Troop-135
5 Kabalites with blaster in Venom with Nightshield and extra splinter cannon
Troop-135
Same
Troop-135
Same
Troop-135
Same
Troop-135
Same
Troop-160
9 Wych in Raider with flickerfield (archon's ride)
Heavy Support-125
Ravager with flickerfield and nightshields
Heavy Support-125
Same
Heavy Support-175
Razorwing Jetfighter with splinter cannon, flickerfield, and nightshield
Elite-170
5 Trueborn with 3 shardcarbines and 2 splinter cannons in venom with splinter cannon and nightshields


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Crap, nevermind saw that this list would put me 50 points over so I may have to drop the 5th warrior venom and do something else with the left over points. Probally just add upgrades to the archon, wychs, make the trueborn blasters instead and give the raider back their nightshields...damn thought I was thinking smart with 5 troop venoms, 1 elite venom, and 1 troop raider...oh well back to the drawing board


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Where can I buy weapon bitz? GW does not sell DE weapon bitz.


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Ovion wrote:

Shadowharte wrote:Sounds like I might actually have to try it, but I have to wait until I can grab 5-6 more venoms I only have 1 atm. My current vehicles count as 3 raiders, 1 venom, 2 ravagers, and 1 jetfighter so I will have to wait a little bit to drop the 250 bucks to grab those

To be honest, I feel that the 3 raiders / 3 Venoms list is perfectly fine. You don't need 5-6 venoms

Shadowharte wrote:Ok if I were to do the TrueBlasters I would need all eight blasters, plus 2 more for the warriors. Do they sell just weapon bits since they do not sell a 'trueborn' boxes and they do not provide more than one blaster per warrior box

You can buy bitz online.
Or probably convert some up out of shredders and whatnot.

Not sure which 3 raider 3 venom list you were talking about. Can you repost?

Not entirely sure where's best in germany.

I've used a few places before, an ebay store and a couple of other sites.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/thebitzstore
http://www.bitsandkits.co.uk/
I've used both of those reliably before.
The other option is pretty much just ebay searches or conversions.

Also thinking about it - I previously played a GK foot list before I had proper mech for my army (1 ravager, 2 venoms) and tbh, 2 Venoms, with 2 squads of trueborn with 2 cannons and 2 squads of 10 warriors with cannons, the ravager and possibly only 1 talos... I think I still had the firepower to drown them in poison and win.

Shadowharte wrote:Not sure which 3 raider 3 venom list you were talking about. Can you repost?

Hadn't posted any particular list, more a comment on any given list doesn't need to have that many venoms to play well. I can probably think one up if you really want
But my point was mostly instead of having to go buy 5 venoms, you could just as easily buy 2 and run with the 3 raiders you have, and still easily outmanouver the GKs.
It's mostly a trade off anyway. - Blasterborn are good, more AT shots followed by 12 AI shots, while a raider is a single shot but at a good distance, followed by numerous splinter shots (6-20 depending on if it's warriors or trueborn, and within 24" or not).


Oh - and I just realised - Using Blasterborn squads means that even with shadowfields you're going to be in range of their weapons, and/or charge range.

If blasterborn are in their range I may stick with my trueborn with shardcarbines and splintercannons (shardborne? lol) I definitely think I may run it closer to my raider list then, but a bit tweeked. I will take a few and fix it then let me know if you think it would work at all? I might like it this way more anyways. Not bashing a well working list, but I am not too big a fan of cookie cutter.

I'd still stick with just the 2 cannons on 3 trueborn instead of carbines, simple costs and all.

Mayhaps I'll run up a list.. I should start using my Kabalite forces more again, been using my coven pretty much exclusively for ages, and I've got.. similar units to draw from.


I'm not saying that the venom gunboat thing wouldn't work - I mean it's technically the spammed tournament list that is Venom Spam (all variant on a theme of 1-3 squads of 3-4 trueborn with blasters in a venom, 2-6 squads of 5 warriors with a blaster in a venom, 3 ravagers, maybe a squad of wyches with a haem in a raider for counterassaulting. Plus whatever personal flavour in prefered wargear / hq with spare points).

Here is my next revision
HQ-145
Archon with Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clonefield, and Phantasm GL
Troop-180
10 Kabalites with splinter cannon in raider with flickerfield and nightshield
Troop-180
Same as above
Troop-170
10 Wych with razorflails, hekatrix with an agoniser in a raider with flickerfield and nightshields
Elite-153
4 Incubi in Venom with splinter cannon and nightshield (archon will ride with them)
Elite-170
5 Shardborne (I am copyrighting that name!!) with 3 shardcarbine and 2 splinter cannons in venom with splinter cannon and nightshields
Heavy Support-125
Ravager with flickerfield and nightshield
Heavy Support-125
Same as prior
Heavy Support-175
Razorwing with splinter cannon flickerfield and nightshield
With this list I will only have to purchase one more warrior set and 1 more venom for the trueborn
I think the way I can do this is take y'alls advice about dropping the dreadnaughts/dreadknights he is going to field first with the 11 DL I will have then focus on anything else than can reach my range with either the lances (if its mech) or The 9 splinter cannons I will have. Also can he fire the psycannons his infantry are using while they are in the rhinos after he moves? I thought it was only open topped vehicles that could move and have the passengers fire. Also should I be launching all missles at once off my razorwing or 1 by 1? I gave the Archon PGL since Incubi do not have the assault nades like the wychs come standard with. I have 7 points left over with this list I was thinking about enhanced aethersails for the wych raider, but if used I cannot disembark. Any idea where to throw those? I was thinking to drop the incubi whenever they get close enough to assault out and then dropping the venom back with splintercannon range and just launching salvos of splinters into the enemy to soften them up before my incubi and archon charge in. Wychs I was gonna drop so they can assault whatever squishy target I can reach first the dropping the raider back as well so i can try to avoid losing those vehicles and using the warrior raiders at the 36" range until I can drop anything with over a 24" range so that I can start to float in closer with the nightshields as protection letting the warriors unleash their salvos of splinters as well. Also, do the warriors have to fire at the same target that the raider fires at?

1: Things can fire out of firepoints on transports, usually it's half the capacity or something like that, while open topped lets everything fire.

2: There's 2 main opinions as to Razorwings missiles.
A: Fire them all at the first oppurtunity you have so if it goes down you don't lose any.
B: Just use it as a tank and fire them as targets of oppurtunity present themselves.

Personally I follow the second camp. I fire in pairs as and when I get a preffered target.

But both work fine .

3: No - embarked units can fire at a different target.

Shadowharte wrote:I have a Dark Eldar army (still a WIP) My buddy just built himself a GK army, but he has talked to me about his lists and the way I am seeing it is everything I can bring out he has something full of 2X more awesomness and unstoppable by my army. Such as his purifiers being able to wipe out all my cc because of those damned halberbs, plus the fact that everything they have are force weapons and can insta kill everything in my army. Being able to fly his stormravens up full out and drop his termies and they can assault the same turn. The new GK seem to be auto-win mode this edition. Oh, and my mandrakes are daemons At a loss and need some help here please and thanks. Oh and he gets raged weaponry that tops mine.

Firstly, he is 1 up before the game starts, smack-talk him back.

Unfortunately, a psy dread shooting at an AV 10 vehicle from 54" effectively has a 53%/33% chance of exploding/destroying said vehicle. If you have gone flat-out, that goes to 40%/49%.. An elite one, is 58%/36%, or 43%54% flat-out. So basically, its better to just use your FF save than get the 4+ save where tactically able. In my meta, its quite common to see 6 psy dreads, thats 5.38 dead AV 10 vehicles a turn. You are de-meched in short order.

In return, our dark light weaponry has a 4%/4% chance to knock out a normal dread, hence to "confirm" a kill on 1 normal dread I should fire 14 lance weapons of some flavour. Now, with the reroll on the damage table the elites get it drops to 2%/2% requiring 21 shots to "confirm the kill". Not factoring in Immo or WD results here. Just kills.

Go lucky dice......

However, this may work. I'm imagining a few raiders in with the ravagers with this and some venoms. That's the most important stuff, if you want to beat a list, there is the list section, happy to comment.

He has a bunch of dreads and CC stuff in boxes and castles in the middle. If he splits the force, its easier because then just pick a side to cave first. You have NS on everything. If he deploys in a castle first. Pick a corner and hug it like its your childhood teddy bear.

The key is to guess 48"-52.5" well, heh. I suggest making a poster with nice colours marking out that range clearly and sticking it on the roof of your room. Dream it

A dread can go 6" and shoot 48" less the 6" NS gives 48". We can shoot 36". Hmm. If you move a ravager/raider to 48.5" from one of the castle's corners dread on the side, then you are safe and can then turn and gain 2.5", move 12" and shoot at 34" ish. If he moves back, rinse and repeat. Try to get your air-fleet to deploy in a semi-circle at 48"50" then Alpha with as much as possible, maybe around t2-3.

The following turn will hurt, but hopefully between some of the dreads not being in range/dead, psc cannons maybe not in range unless they disembark, damage can be mitigated. I'd be expecting to lose about 3-4 vehicles this turn.

At this stage everything should be firing as much as possible and hopefully the dice are fair to you.

With his list, how does he run it? Does the storm raven come hard at you? His termie charge range should be 12"+2"+base+6". So about 22". I think the raven will be dead before that happens. If he moves it hard at you, the plan stays the same but focus everything to nail that and the termies that fall out.

The wyches that have been in the raiders with haems so didn't all die horribly in the explosion and subsequent torrent of fire would look for charges of opportunity, dodge 4+ is still good. I'd leave the expensive stuff in my gaming case and go for saturation of fire/wych counter assault. Haems liquefiers can make a mess of GK squads if left alone.

I don't believe this is tailoring as this tactic can apply to any 48" range 6" move AT weapon or less. Oblits, Long Fangs, tesla destructor, Hive Guard, etc. The lower that potential range, the more aggresive you can be with this approach. Big tanks... Not so good.

Have no Haemys. Also, not sure what you mean by castle. I used the list section, but go hardly any replies maybe 1 I believe and I was already speaking to a few people here so I figured I might get their opinions on my lists sorry if that was a problem. Also, the stats you posted confuse me a bit...how do they have a 40%+ chance of dropping all my raiders and venoms, but my DL only have a 2-4% chance to drop the dread? I wasn't even sure if I was gonna take wychs cause I was trying to make a Kabal list. I wish it to be viable against the types of opponents I will be facing, Chaos, Sisters, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Eldar, and 'Nids, but I do wish to keep as close to the theme as possible because I plan on running a Kabal, Cult, and a Coven eventually.


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Also where you basing all that off of the list I posted or yours?


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Placed the list in the Army list threads again.

The blaster born are your nukes. They drive up on the flank bake something, and rely on cover or such to negate fire. Plus i should have a bunch of other stuff around presenting targets. They should not draw too much attention, but if they do, it's only a 173 pt unit (183 with nf) that just absorbed probally twice that amount in shooting. So it's win win.

Anyway, my final advice is to play the units you want... Remove what fails or you don't like, and add more of what works. Or you do like untill you get a list that plays to your strengths s a gamer.

Shadowharte wrote:Have no Haemys. Also, not sure what you mean by castle. I used the list section, but go hardly any replies maybe 1 I believe and I was already speaking to a few people here so I figured I might get their opinions on my lists sorry if that was a problem. Also, the stats you posted confuse me a bit...how do they have a 40%+ chance of dropping all my raiders and venoms, but my DL only have a 2-4% chance to drop the dread? I wasn't even sure if I was gonna take wychs cause I was trying to make a Kabal list. I wish it to be viable against the types of opponents I will be facing, Chaos, Sisters, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Eldar, and 'Nids, but I do wish to keep as close to the theme as possible because I plan on running a Kabal, Cult, and a Coven eventually.

Also where you basing all that off of the list I posted or yours?

Wasn't trying to focus on a particular list, more the general strategy if going with the NS and a reasonable amount of 36" paper plane firepower. More a "how can an advantage be gained against a solid GK list" point. Wasn't meaning to havea go about the list bashing here, more interested in the ideas of the strategies to defeat GK shooty lists with DE.

Castle refers to the deployment style where everything basically goes into one area "castle" instead of being more spread out.

When considering the statistics, do note that the psy rifleman dread is getting 4 shots in that analysis, and the dark light weapons are per each weapon fired. Hence a ravager with 3 DL will have that statistic multiplied by 3. However, I write this from the perspective of the DE player, hence why its considered this way.

Basically, 1 psy rifleman dread will take out a paper plane if in range every time it shoots, while we need to focus fire to have a reasonable chance of returning the favour.

Theme beats MSU , however if you select less efficient units and don't get the over-saturation of firepower that you require, you may find it tough going to complete with stronger lists, GK, IG, SW etc.


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DarthSpader wrote:The blaster born are your nukes. They drive up on the flank bake something, and rely on cover or such to negate fire. Plus i should have a bunch of other stuff around presenting targets. They should not draw too much attention, but if they do, it's only a 173 pt unit (183 with nf) that just absorbed probally twice that amount in shooting. So it's win win.

Anyway, my final advice is to play the units you want... Remove what fails or you don't like, and add more of what works. Or you do like untill you get a list that plays to your strengths s a gamer.

Last part fully, first part not sold.

When you write the list and scan down the total costs, 4 trueborn is a considerable investment over the costs of the other MSU units. The opponent knows they are our nukes, highest rate of DL weaponry/unit. They have to be close to deliver the payload, can stay in the vehicle if range allows but if they do they run the risk of running away if they lose one in the following explosion. If you drop them to the floor, they blow the load which has a 15%/15% chance to exp/kill and AV 12 vehicle. Not bad but no guarantees. However, they aren't really token receiving units so basically they are 4 t3 models relying on a 4+ save with low morale.... Doesn't take much to get em and they are a high threat.

But they aren't by themselves. A least when I use them.... They usually attack in the same area (3 squads), and I bring warrior venoms along as well. The idea being, so many targets in one area "overwhelm" the critical thought process of enemy, and he ends up spreading fire across multiple targets instead of focusing and baking one or two out of the group. End result is a few stunned, maybe an immobilized or a wreck. Not bad all things considered. Plus, disembark TB Into cover works well here.

Mind this is just how I've noticed it works in my local area. YMMV depending on local meta

Local meta fully, far too many games played recently against crons, 5th edition just lost the sun and everything that goes with that, spam tesla destructor arcing can hurt the quarter-circle formation. Then there are the GK's, Shanghai discovered psy dreads and didn't look back.

Maybe. I play alot of crons and gk, and while lots of night fight is annoying I find it pretty much equal footing for DE, and it's not much of a game changer. psy dreads are a concern, but so is SW missile spam, SM Lazcannon or missiles, and so on. You just need to adjust your tactics and know what units do and how to counter them. I will admit that psy dreads are a dangerous foe to face for venom/raider spam, but I think those psy dreads are just as worried about all our lances as we are about them....I mean the main reason psy dread spam is popular is because it's a good counter to fast moving MSU transport lists. Perhaps try a sneaky WWP list or "foot dar" variant when fighting GK... Make those dreads useless, or less effective.