Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Kroot 121
9 Carnivores, Shaper, 5 Hunds

kroot 10-20+0-1 shaper+ the rest ^^ you cant field 9

enfernux wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Kroot 121
9 Carnivores, Shaper, 5 Hunds

kroot 10-20+0-1 shaper+ the rest ^^ you cant field 9

I mean 9 Carnivores, THEN A SHAPER

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this... but i i found when playing against dark eldar that the CIB for the Commander with BS5 was awesome against that army. Most of the army was T3 which made the number of shots worthwhile for taking with its matched strength. Also in the rules your 6's turn into AP1 so that you bypass the FNP on most dark eldar with pain tokens. What do you guys think?

That does sound like a very nice idea i might swap out my Plasma rifle for the CIB could work very nice and definately worth a shot with the nulling FNP which might i add is a pain in the ass! Will definately try it out tomorrow thanks for that tip Slick.

ATO

SlickVictory wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this... but i i found when playing against dark eldar that the CIB for the Commander with BS5 was awesome against that army. Most of the army was T3 which made the number of shots worthwhile for taking with its matched strength. Also in the rules your 6's turn into AP1 so that you bypass the FNP on most dark eldar with pain tokens. What do you guys think?

Nah I don't Think the CIB is worth it, if anything you should take the ABFL it's much better!

Actually, for a Shas'o or Shas'el with Targeting Array, Plasma Rifle/CIB is a pretty sick MEQ/TEQ killer.

You usually end up with about 3 of either dead from this one suit in one round of shooting assuming normal rolls

@Godz:
mon, you MUST have at least 10(!!!) carnivores and then you have options to field other unites in it. 9 is ILLEGAL-.- What part didnt you understand in my previous post?

and what are you going to do against a far mobile gun-platform DE? I can basically concetrate 64 shots, most are rerollable and im in transports with usually a 4+ cover and a 5+ invul and 8 lance shots a turn. Im not saying it cant be defeated, i just found out that my opponents have a hard time doing it.

If you want to kill MEQs, try to put in as many shots as possible. PR is good, but only has 1-2 shots. CIB is s3, so you wound on 5+, low chance. vs GEQ, its useadle.

@Mar'tacus: 5 s3 shots. you need 5+ so you have less than 30% to do damage. 5*0.8*0.3=1.2 saveable wound, 1.2*0.6=0.72 wounds with a 1/6 chance of ap 1
0.72*1/6=0.12 ap 1 hits a turn. Pr is better, but: 12" rapid=2*0,8*0,8=1.26 autokill.
Not a good rate of kill.
12 man FW with rapid=24 shots wounding on 3+ with saves alowed.
24*0.3*0.7*0,3=1.512 kills.
Shas'o+cib+pr115 with MT, fw 120 and more kills a turn in average. Tried CIB, not worth it on MEQ.

I think you can take 9 Carnivores with a Shaper, as the Shaper is an upgrade to one of the Carnivores, still counting to the 10 man minimum.

Also...Math-hammer aside, if you play a mid-range game (where Tau excel anyway) instead of long-range, the PR/CIB Shas'el (which only costs 100pts including Multitracker and TA for BS5) can reliably get 3 kills on its own against MEQ. Of course you need to not roll like gak, but that can be said with anything in 40k. I've found that more often than not, I end up rolling at least one 6 to wound with the CIB, and the potential for more makes it at least as useful as the Helios (PR/FB, MT) pattern suit.

Oh, and your math is wrong.

Every shot has a 33% chance to wound and a 17% chance to be AP1. The probabilities of each shot are independent and will eventually add up to a quite high probability of landing at least 1 wound. I'm not gonna do the math, but yeah...you need to recheck yourself.

enfernux wrote:@Godz:
mon, you MUST have at least 10(!!!) carnivores and then you have options to field other unites in it. 9 is ILLEGAL-.- What part didnt you understand in my previous post?.

10 CARNIVORES, 1 UPGRADED TO A SHAPER, HENCE THERE ARE NOW 9 CARNIVORES AND 1 SHAPER, LEGAL AS ANYTHING!

CIB is poor, for 5 points more, ABFL is much better and will get you more kills against both MEQs and GEQ's, 1 You don't need to roll to hit and you can get up to 6 men under a template! also you can fire as barrage so can camp out of sight and fire it.

Firing as barrage also subjects it to the full 2d6 scatter, so...not as useful then.

But, either way, I still enjoy the CIB. It's no replacement for a Plasma Rifle, but it sure works well in tandem with it.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

enfernux wrote:@Godz:
mon, you MUST have at least 10(!!!) carnivores and then you have options to field other unites in it. 9 is ILLEGAL-.- What part didnt you understand in my previous post?.

10 CARNIVORES, 1 UPGRADED TO A SHAPER, HENCE THERE ARE NOW 9 CARNIVORES AND 1 SHAPER, LEGAL AS ANYTHING!

Godz is right Enfernux.

Squad size is "10-20 Kroot, 0-12 Hounds and 0-3 Krootox" and it says "One Kroot may be UPGRADED to a Shaper at an ADDITIONAL cost of ??pts" Tau Codex Page 37.

So 9 Kroot and a Shaper is LEGAL.

Also, my Shas'El is equipped with both a CIB and a Fusion Blaster and I have found him to be a great all round unit, especially with his shield drone. CIBs are definately worth it against Horde armies.

my bad on that. ive somehow alwayse looped over that point. agh, i have to be more aware.

well, yeah, math is off cause i used the wrong calcuation pattern, but it isnt to off...i think

@O'Raatol: you bring a FB against horde?
but on CIB: yeah, its kind of more a hord killer than a MEQ killer. But i would add a tl flamer just in case to reroll those wounds and negate CS.
and on ABF: love it. for meq and geq and especially vs eldar rangers: no CS, ap5. If that hit, the eldar can take those rangers off almost instantly with a 3+ to wound, and that is very good.

Thanks for all the tips. I played a game today and it ended in a draw. It was 2 objectives plus 3d6 objectives, in the end there were 5 objectives. I played against 1000 point nid army.

I had Shas'el with his CiB and Pods work rather well and he joined two crisis with pods and bursts. 1 team of 2 crisis suits with plasma and pods and 1 team of 2 crisis suits in reserves with pods and bursts.
I had kroot in reserve and unfortunately i rolled a 5 on turn two and they turned up slghtly too early and were met by a group of 4 tyranid warriors (btw i used 12 kroot so all legal ) By turn 3 i had no troops left. I had wiped his genestealers out and his hornagaunts so he just had his warriors left as troops, which were holding an objective. His carnifex was held in combat for 3 turns by 2 crisis suits RESULT! and his mawloc was held in combat for 3 turns by my HQ squad. I had two Hammerheads left and managed to blow his warriors off the objective on the 5th turn ending in a draw.

A few things came to my attention. Firstlt i set my army up too spread out, i should have made him run further.

I tried a few things out firstly the CIB was average at best didnt do alot i think strength three is its major downside. I think in furture i would either take fusion or plasma rifle for him.
The ION cannon hammerhead worked nicely but not sure its as effect against horde armies think perhaps the blast railgun shot is better?
Also i think i have been convert to deep striking, my squad of crisis that used deep strike acted as a great distraction and boomed alot of uints when they arrived.
I have a question for you guys - do you rate devilfish? I am beginning to realise that i need to have some more protection for my Fire warriors any thoughts?

thanks

ATO

enfernux wrote:@O'Raatol: you bring a FB against horde?

He's not inter-changable so yes. But the FB is more for tanks and marine characters.


@Alltheones:

I'm glad to hear you had a good game.

Your eventual choices obviously proved worth it and stood the test.

Personally I don't like Kroot in Reserve, usually because they got shot up upon arrival before they can do anything.

The holding his units in Combat with your suits is a Tactic I use but only if nothing else is working, I'm glad it worked for you.

On the spreading out Note, against Nids, you always want to setup as far away as possible to buy yourself as much shooting time as possible because no doubt he'll set up as close as possible.

Personaaly I prefer the Submissions shot to a Ion Cannon. That way you still have the choice for sholid shot.

Though they provide cover, at their pts cost I think Devilfish arent worth it. The pts would be better spent somewhere else. Just always try to keep your FWs in cover, they have the range to hit basically anything on the board. For objectives I usually use my Large Kroot squads or Pulse Carbine FWs.

@ O'Raatol

lol my crisis suits hlding his units up in combat wasnt a tactic i used they just got jumped on lol but they did hold their own in combat which never ever happens to me atleast lol. Yer the ion cannon was nice for taking down the warriors 3+ save and even carnifex and for points i actually think i am converted to having an ionhead and a railhead.
As for my kroot there was a crater within 6 inches of the edge thats why i decided to reserve them, they came on and managed to rapid fire a fair few units down and then they inflicted a fair few casulties in combat.
As for the devilfish i just need a bit of mobilty for my FW, the fact that they dont have to disembark to hold an objective is a massive bonus for either ninjaing an objective turn 5 or even gettin a draw. I think its something to utlise even if its just 6 FW's in a devilfish I realise i lose a lot of firepower however my troops seem to get nuked to peices first few turns even in cover and hene objective games can only end in a draw or a lose lol.
I am still undecided on the devilfish though any thoughts for others?

Cheers

ATO

I find devilfish are good if a you if the other team are coming to assult you. you just drive the fire worreirs away in the devifish.

aw ok well i think for a reasonable price i should buy one atleast just to try it out def save my troops a bit lol.

Thanks for the advice

ATO

Well, for DTC i have a tac: give cover for your artilery, than if the enemy is bold enough to come close in the middle, zoom in 12" from the sides - 2-2 on each side - for a "U" with the dtc's, pack out the troops in 12" if the enemy, than turn the gunships(!!!XD) on the squad. You give cover to your warriors, thats 4*12*2 s5 ap5 shots from the warriors, 4*3 s5ap5 from the dtc and 4*2 tl carabine shots from the drones, and you give cover to your warriors as well. thats a 108+8tl shots on one target. Statisticly it can devastate. 108*1/3*4/6=24 + (8*2/6+8*2/6)*4/6=3.55, totally a 27-28 kill vs geq - mostly sv5+
if able, you could just use xv8 jsj tac to further the number with tl flamer. Im just glad that CIB wont be spec issue in 5th Tau. tl flamer+CIB+hw multi. Or tl flamer ABF and hw multi. Time to kill some nids! XD
mathhammer isnt reality sadly :(

gg on the game though

objective fw: 6 in a dtc /w DP
fish of furry fw: 8 in a dtc /w dp and multi or TA, both if you have the points, 2 warriors can have carabine if need bee - better chance than the drones so combinated with drone carabine fire, it can make the opponent pinned. Slight chance, but possible, and all the more better.
overkill U pattern: 4*12 in dtc w dp and multi/ U pattern. This obviously means you will have to sacrifice a few dtcs and a few fw squads, but vs a genestealer sq, if its overconfident, can make a difference. For bait vs cc armies, i use kroots - the only time - they wipe'em out, and next turn are obliterated. If you come across a DE with witches and/or incubi, try to kill the incubi's transport, before it can do anyting - move for example - then they will be moveing 6+d6/turn, enough to bait in the wytches and mow'em down with supressing fire. Care to note that DE cc unites in transports have a 12"+6"+d6"+6" charge distance, average 27" - yep, you can do that from an assault vehicle, OR AN OPEN TOPPED TRANSPORT, and DE have just that. If you think that you would prefer to protect your FW from a nother sq wytch assault while dakkaing the other, sacc the dtcs to do it. Those litle wytches will need rolls of 6 to hit it - 12" movement - but will probably have haywire grenades, meaning will glance on 2+ and pen on a 6. 1/6*10*5/6=1.66 chance to glance and/or pen. statistically you can survive more with this than your fw-s can against cc unites.

additional note: against cc DE, equip your DTCs with flechette discharge. any unite hitting it will suffer an instant s4ap- hit, like it was a cc attack, with the dtc haveing 100 initiative MSU cc DE will field a lot of these little ladies. Half effect, but a lot of assaults mean a lot of chance to glance or pen...and to deal those s4ap- hits you will wound'em on a 3+ (T3)

note on overkill DE - my shooty build - give cover to your unites as much as you can with tanks. Splinter weapons cant damage tanks, but will drill infantry in to the ground.

@ enfernux
How did you know that a CIB is not spec issue in the 5th ed Tau Codex?

@ O'Raatol
I find kroot usfull cannon fodder, although in objects that could not be a good tactic.

@ All the ones
Another idea for the devilfish, put the half of the FW in the devilfish, and use them to capture the objectives.

plops1999 wrote:

@ All the ones
Another idea for the devilfish, put the half of the FW in the devilfish, and use them to capture the objectives.

enfernux wrote:
objective fw: 6 in a dtc /w DP

plops1999 wrote:@ enfernux
How did you know that a CIB is not spec issue in the 5th ed Tau Codex?

rumors, but tau testing equip - aka special issue - usually is just that for one dex. After it, it usually becomes normal gear. And as far as rumor, Stim injector wont be spec issue as well fnp xv8 right on.

Thanks, I didnt see your idea about the devilfish, but it is my tactic aswell in small point objective games!

Thanks to all you guys. I have ordered a devilfish so hopefully i will be able to try out these tactics. I love the fact the FW only have to be in the troop carrier to capture the objective and I love the fact they can disembark and shoot love it. I have a doubles match tonight so I will let you know how the new list created by this forum fairs!

ATO

Alltheones wrote:Thanks to all you guys. I have ordered a devilfish so hopefully i will be able to try out these tactics. I love the fact the FW only have to be in the troop carrier to capture the objective and I love the fact they can disembark and shoot love it. I have a doubles match tonight so I will let you know how the new list created by this forum fairs!

ATO

Yeah i do love devilfi, but i wouldn't go for a smartfish as the gun drones will be able to hold an objective for the fire warrior squad, so in lots of objective games, you can drop the fire warriors off then let the drones stay in the fish and go an capture another!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Yeah i do love devilfi, but i wouldn't go for a smartfish as the gun drones will be able to hold an objective for the fire warrior squad, so in lots of objective games, you can drop the fire warriors off then let the drones stay in the fish and go an capture another!

w8 a minute, as i recall, only troops can capture but anything can contest. FW, Drones, and the DTC!!! Or if i remember wrong, than i think drones cant either, cause they are a free fast slot, not troops.

enfernux wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Yeah i do love devilfi, but i wouldn't go for a smartfish as the gun drones will be able to hold an objective for the fire warrior squad, so in lots of objective games, you can drop the fire warriors off then let the drones stay in the fish and go an capture another!

w8 a minute, as i recall, only troops can capture but anything can contest. FW, Drones, and the DTC!!! Or if i remember wrong, than i think drones cant either, cause they are a free fast slot, not troops.

It says in the Tau FAQ that The drones on the devilfish are the same FoC slot that they are taken for, in this case if they are taken for FW's then they are troops, so they can sit in the devilfish and capture the objective while the FW's are sitting somewhere else on another!

and since the DTC is a troop choice...omg XD last round, you are last, drop off the drones and contest a nother with the transport, or worse, claim one. Holy freakin cow.

Well firstly thats why i think a devilfish is a good idea lol

Ok so had another match last night annilation against 1000pt nids list. He had a large 30 unit squad of hormagaunts, 15 or so genestealers wih brood mother, 4 warrors, a hive tyrant and a marloc.

I went with HQ shasel with plasma rifle, missle pod, shield drone MT, and TA.
3 squads of 2 crisis suits all with MT, BC and MP.
1 Broadside
2 hammerheads with DP, SM and 1 railgun and 1 ioncannon.
11 FW, 11 Kroot.

He won to set up first. I set up right in the corner with all my fire power except 2 lots of crisis which i set up in the middle to act as a distraction. He was tabled turn 4!!! that marks my first victory on my own lol.

Stars of the battle: - Ion cannon kicked nid ass. Hive tyrant didnt stand a chance and neither did the warriors no invun save. The railhead took out pretty much all the hormagaunts. The Kroot were amazing, they killed the marloc (6 wounds) wilst taking 4 casulties.

Losers of the battle: - FW did nothing lol, granted they got some shots off but they died early again.

He had no units left and the only unit I lost was my FW's it was an awesome game and really demonstrate the fire power the Tau have. So the list I used i think is pretty spot on for horde armies.

I have decided that a devilfish is deinately a worthwhile purchase. Definatley try the list out it finally came together after weeks of tweaking and suggestions from you guys so thanks!

ATO

Alltheones wrote:Well firstly thats why i think a devilfish is a good idea lol

Ok so had another match last night annilation against 1000pt nids list. He had a large 30 unit squad of hormagaunts, 15 or so genestealers wih brood mother, 4 warrors, a hive tyrant and a marloc.

I went with HQ shasel with plasma rifle, missle pod, shield drone MT, and TA.
3 squads of 2 crisis suits all with MT, BC and MP.
1 Broadside
2 hammerheads with DP, SM and 1 railgun and 1 ioncannon.
11 FW, 11 Kroot.

He won to set up first. I set up right in the corner with all my fire power except 2 lots of crisis which i set up in the middle to act as a distraction. He was tabled turn 4!!! that marks my first victory on my own lol.

Stars of the battle: - Ion cannon kicked nid ass. Hive tyrant didnt stand a chance and neither did the warriors no invun save. The railhead took out pretty much all the hormagaunts. The Kroot were amazing, they killed the marloc (6 wounds) wilst taking 4 casulties.

Losers of the battle: - FW did nothing lol, granted they got some shots off but they died early again.

He had no units left and the only unit I lost was my FW's it was an awesome game and really demonstrate the fire power the Tau have. So the list I used i think is pretty spot on for horde armies.

I have decided that a devilfish is deinately a worthwhile purchase. Definatley try the list out it finally came together after weeks of tweaking and suggestions from you guys so thanks!

ATO

Nice, great job on the win, I've never really liked the kroot before but they have taken out a few Mawlocs in their time with me! I normally prefer to take FW squads in Fishes as they are better in obj games with providing more troops and as a typical Tau player nothing beats bailing out of a fish and firing 24 S5 shots into some Orks or nids! Normally gets 10 wounds and then you can still do a lot more, but I do think Kroot have their place, it's just down to personal preference.

What I think you should do now is remove the Burst Cannons and try and fit some PR's in there. Hell, even a flamer would do more than a burst cannon! Are you upping the points to fit a devilfish in or are you going to stick to 1000?

gj on the win, nicely done. Yep, FW suck big time but can make an overkill theme if you use distraction good.
on the bc: good on fish, hh and xv25, personally if i have to go with midrange vs lot of nmy kills, then id either take the MP-PR-MT combo, or tl flamer shield. its only my tac, but id' rather sacrifice 2 xv8 to kill a whole sq of hormas.
Duno why you use shield drones. To me, the points can be spent better elsewhere. Ow, and vs horde, try out the ABF. 18" LB s4ap5 ass1 no cover save. Gets most of the hordes. Saccing a shas'el with abf, tl flamers and a MT fireing the templates first and then the abf is a real aoe killer. This IS personal preference, but as you proved, you can do good on your own to.

update on the DE:
Hamenculus tacs already postet
Shooty DE: get their vehicles down as fast as you can than cc'em with anything you can afford, or massacer them with template and blast weapons.
the transports are open topped, so a glanc means only -1 on the vehicle dmg table - -2for glance, +1 for open topped - so basically a DTC can bring it down. MSU types are typically hard to handle as there are to meny unites to concentrate fire on, but get the transports off and they'll be stranded and unprotected - hell, your pulse rifle allow no armor saves to be taken for them!
CC DE: Shoot to kill. If he brings wytches and incubi focus massive fire on the type that has the most models - bloodbrides are wytches to, just they are elites. Mechanise your army with DTCs, because they can only do damage to it with haywire grenades - wytches - and the Incubi Klaivex CC. Note that they can make a charge distance of average 27" - 12" vehicle, 6" move (YESS THEY CAN!) d6"run(~3) and 6"assault(fleet of foot).
if you mech your army, then try to take out the transports - again - and only engage those nasty cc unites that have a 60+% chance to be eliminated. A squad of 8 wytches though die easily from no As allowed, but if they survive your rapid fire and dont fail the leadership test, your troop that shot are basically toast - dice gods willing! ^^

The day kroot carnivores have assault weapons is the day i will finally stop neglecting them for fire warriors!