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Alltheones wrote:@imrandom - i have to disagree i find the MP and PR a good combo, its nice to have the range of MP with the close power of PR. Especially nice against lower armoured vehicles with str 7 its nice to take out a few low armoured tanks early on whilst saving the big guns for nastier stuff. and i find the CIB a bit hit and miss but i love the idea of it and want it to be awesome lol
ATO

MP and PR is good, but having three shots wastes the greater BS of the Shas'el. With models with such high BS, you'll want to roll some dakka.

I usually have a unit of PRMP suits in the elites section.

so you say pr goo for both. GEQ will kill it with aprox 30"range multiblast weapons or a lot of sniper fire. no need.
Pr is good to getting in "melee" range of rapid fire enemies. Most have ap5 - so you will get 3+ as - and in return you give s6ap2, no armorsave, woun don 2+
but "melee" is not good with range - 30"+ - for on OR, you will htart hitting enemies, but in order to do so with your "melee", you have to get close, equaling the same amount of shots with same strength, wounding on 2+. Vs termies, mp is not viable, vs tac/pa marines, it is good.
So would you risk a rending on termies, or give'em 6 shots of havoc??
waste of shas'el greater bs?! would be for shas'o greater bs, perhaps, but not, never, no way shas'el! the greater bs requires a targeting array, but shas'el can be used better in "melee", while a shas'o is better at killing from a far. At least ime.
0-12" shas'el, 12+ shas'o.
Such high bs?? Have you seen the DE?? 6+ on hq!! well a few of them, and they can shoot bad

enfernux wrote:so you say pr goo for both. GEQ will kill it with aprox 30"range multiblast weapons or a lot of sniper fire. no need.
Pr is good to getting in "melee" range of rapid fire enemies. Most have ap5 - so you will get 3+ as - and in return you give s6ap2, no armorsave, woun don 2+
but "melee" is not good with range - 30"+ - for on OR, you will htart hitting enemies, but in order to do so with your "melee", you have to get close, equaling the same amount of shots with same strength, wounding on 2+. Vs termies, mp is not viable, vs tac/pa marines, it is good.
So would you risk a rending on termies, or give'em 6 shots of havoc??
waste of shas'el greater bs?! would be for shas'o greater bs, perhaps, but not, never, no way shas'el! the greater bs requires a targeting array, but shas'el can be used better in "melee", while a shas'o is better at killing from a far. At least ime.
0-12" shas'el, 12+ shas'o.
Such high bs?? Have you seen the DE?? 6+ on hq!! well a few of them, and they can shoot bad

You shouldn't use either of them for "melee" ever...

The only time I ever put my HQ that close to the enemy is when I run my armoured interdiction cadre and use him as a suicide flamer unit.

Also, if you're going to keep your Shas'O at 30" away...you won't kill anything. All you'll get to use is your MP which frankly doesn't do all that much damage.

and MP is not useful against tac marines because of it's poor AP value. on a normal suit, you'll get one hit, meaning about 0.83 wounds, and about 0.27 kills, with it being only slightly better for shas'O. With an 'el + TA with CIB 4.2 hits, 1,4 unsaved wounds (about double the MP) and 0.4666 kills, without the ionization effect. WIth the ionization effect (accounting for the probability of it's occurence), it would kill 0.78-three times as much as a MP. For three points more. It would also net more GEQ kills, and more termie kills.

I never take Shas'O.
A Shas'El with a TA is 60pts, a Shas'O is 75pts.
You're essentially paying 15pts for an extra wound and an extra Ld point. The extra attack and WS are pointless.

When you consider that he's always T4 anyway, and you can get FnP for cheaper; Shas'O just doesn't cut the grass.

@im2randomghgh
shas'el TA CIB combo mathhammer: 5/6*3/6*5*2/6=0.694 unsaved wounds. Rolling for ap1 is 1/6 per wound, so it is a 0.11 chance of getting an ap 1 from 6 shots, ofc it will kill the marine, but 0.11 from 5 shots...
for melee, tl flamer gets mostly the whole unite. lets count with 7.
3/6*2/6*7+3/6*2/6*3.5= 0.58. Lets count +2 BG so its 2.92. And it only cost me 6pt wuhu - plus the anual shield ofc for a 4++, resulting in 50+6+20=76pt as in the shas'el /w TA+CIB+lets say BC and HW MT=50+10+12+15+5=92pt. Get shot by a lascannon, your dead bro, as in their flamer variant has chance to survive. 50% i know, but better vs big gunz!! ^^
i get your point on MP, but that is vs trans armies, like SM or IG. LTWs are so fun to kull from long range and you dont have to sac the xv88 and railhead shots, maybe taking out a LR for ex.

i dont like the CIB, except vs IG, because it is fairly weak with average ap and rending sr.

now lets count tl mp vs meq:
(5/6+5/6)*5/6*2*2/6=0.92 to kill a meq from 2(!!!) shots and 36". Next turn same, let say they ran, but cant get close - jum pack d'oh - so you basically nuke'em from afar, and you can still kill LTWs /w it. where as /w a CIB, you just cant, not even /w a roll of 6 - ap one, but 9 vs 10 armor...nah.

enfernux wrote:@im2randomghgh
shas'el TA CIB combo mathhammer: 5/6*3/6*5*2/6=0.694 unsaved wounds. Rolling for ap1 is 1/6 per wound, so it is a 0.11 chance of getting an ap 1 from 6 shots, ofc it will kill the marine, but 0.11 from 5 shots...
for melee, tl flamer gets mostly the whole unite. lets count with 7.
3/6*2/6*7+3/6*2/6*3.5= 0.58. Lets count +2 BG so its 2.92. And it only cost me 6pt wuhu - plus the anual shield ofc for a 4++, resulting in 50+6+20=76pt as in the shas'el /w TA+CIB+lets say BC and HW MT=50+10+12+15+5=92pt. Get shot by a lascannon, your dead bro, as in their flamer variant has chance to survive. 50% i know, but better vs big gunz!! ^^
i get your point on MP, but that is vs trans armies, like SM or IG. LTWs are so fun to kull from long range and you dont have to sac the xv88 and railhead shots, maybe taking out a LR for ex.

i dont like the CIB, except vs IG, because it is fairly weak with average ap and rending sr.

now lets count tl mp vs meq:
(5/6+5/6)*5/6*2*2/6=0.92 to kill a meq from 2(!!!) shots and 36". Next turn same, let say they ran, but cant get close - jum pack d'oh - so you basically nuke'em from afar, and you can still kill LTWs /w it. where as /w a CIB, you just cant, not even /w a roll of 6 - ap one, but 9 vs 10 armor...nah.

TL MP has a 75% Chance to hit, an 83% chance to wound and a 33% chance to pierce armour, 2x0.75x0.83x0.33=0.41 wounds.

CIB has a with BS 5 has an 83% chance to hit, a 33% chance to wound and a 33% chance to pierce armour. 5x0.83x0.33x0.33=0.45 wounds. wounding on a 5, that means that half the "to wound rolls" are 6's, so now we have:

2.5x0.83x0.33x0.33 and
2.5x0.83x0.33x1.

0.22596
0.68475

Add them together: 0.91 dead marine.

Your number for the MP doesn't make sense because even with both the "to hit" variable and the "to wound" variable completely removed, the armour pen roll alone puts it's two shots down to 0.66

So now we know it's better against GEQ, better against MEQ, let's try TEQ.

TLMP at BS5 has (I may be off here, but I think) 97% chance to hit, 83% chance to wound and 0.16% chance to pierce armour. 2x0.97x0.83x0.16= 25% of a dead termie.

TLMP at BS3 has 75% chance to hit, 83% chance to wound and 16% chance to pierce. 2x 0.75x0.83x0.16= 20% of a dead termie

CIB at BS5 has 83% chance to hit, 33% chance to wound and 16% chance to pierce. 5x0.83x0.33x0.16=0.22. Now accounting for the ionization effect, with half my wounds being 6's and still having to beat the 5++:

2.5x0.83x0.33x0.16
2.5x0.83x0.33x0.66

0.11
0.45

So 0.56 dead termies a turn. It is better against every arch type of infantry in the game.

Pinning Tests are not cumalative, the enemy would only take one Pinning Test no matter the wounds

Pinning tests are done for unsaved wounds taken from each pinning weapon, it is the pin itself which is not cumalative.

@im2random: correction on my behalf, i miscalculated a few digit - thanx
tl MP: (5/6*2+5/6)*5/6*2/6=0.69 Yeah, but nasty marine cant shoot me. The range is still a potent value. And you can only have one CIB/armie.
this is still mathhammer, not reality, dont think that you can only kill this meny marines with either a CIB or a tl MP, this just only shows the reality of the dice god.

quote: CIB at BS5 has 83% chance to hit, 33% chance to wound and 16% chance to pierce. 5x0.83x0.33x0.16=0.22. Now accounting for the ionization effect, with half my wounds being 6's and still having to beat the 5++:

2.5x0.83x0.33x0.16
2.5x0.83x0.33x0.66

0.11
0.45

So 0.56 dead termies a turn. It is better against every arch type of infantry in the game.

own thoughts:
5(shots)*5/6(BS)*2/6(wound)/6(TEQ)=0.23
out of one shot being ap1: 5*5/6*1/6*4/6=is a total of 0.46 chance of happening, so halfing the top, adding bottom=0.575 dead termies. that 0.015 can count a lot XD - just being a hardars XD
STK thought: if you shoot TEQ with MP, you are desperate or you have lost the ap1 and 2 shots. If you did, you wont win it with a CIB anyway.

Good vs arch type? count in the necron coming back on 4+

Plasma rifles are only good against things with a high sv.

If you take it agianst imperial guard it is a waste of points.

and if you dont know what you are up against? Better safe than sorry imho

tl MP: (5/6*2+5/6)*5/6*2/6=0.69

This math hammer is flawed. Tragically so.

(5/6*2+5/6) is greater than one. 2.5 to be clear. does a shot from a TL MP have a 250% chance to hit? no. At BS5, that is a 97% chance to hit. Look, I nailed the mathammer, just let it go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

enfernux wrote:and if you dont know what you are up against? Better safe than sorry imho

No. Against IG, you ID characters and smash Ogryns.

Against any SM army of any flavour, you pen.

Against eldar army, ID, wound on 2+, Incubi don't get FNP, striking scorpions get penned. Also, pen wraithlord/wraithguard.

Against Tau, penetrate Crisis and Broadside.

Against Chaos Daemons, pen DP.

Against Necrons, pen Lychguard/praetorians/Immortals/Deathmarks/Lord/Destroyer/Overlord.

Against Tyranids, pen monstrous creatures and...well that's about it.

Against orks, pierce Mega Armor.

and you play with someone, and neither you or he/she tels the list to the opponent, he/se doesnt know what you are bringin and vice versa. So you can play against MEQ, GEQ, but all the same, you won't know their opponent, until its to late
Against eldar, you wont have incubi, and they arent the only one who can have FNP - trust me.
Against Wraithlords, youll wound on a 6+, so not effective.
If you are in 12" range of a Wraithguard unite, that means your XV8 will be dead next turn - wound on 2+, ap2, and if the opponent is not stupid, the'll have a 5+ cover save vs your ap2.
If you are up against IG, you wont have much chance to use there PR vs there ogryn, and if so, will be mowed down by other infantry, cannons, meltas etc.
MEQ, we already discussed that.
Against Necron, well, they are MEQ.
Against Nid MC, you use all weapons negateing FNP and AS, so not just the PR.
Against Orks, you pearce mega armor, and they have 2 wounds each.
If tl mp was a one shot weapon, then yes, you hits for 0.83(!!) and not 0.97, but its a twin shot ability, where you will be failing mostly one hit, and get a reroll, for the calculation of CAUSING WOUNDS and not the hit basis, you have to take that in to consideration, without trying to make the other persons methods seem as the source of a pain you neglect to communicate via non public visibility.

just a thought: your old favorite CIB:
5/6*5=4.16, thats more than 1, so if my methods of mathhammer to calculate wounds are flawwed, then lets view your methods as in: 2.5*5/6(0.83 if you just scrolled up a bit)=1 and a nother 2.5*5/6=1 in a total of 2 hits, one of them is Ap1.

so please, before you critique someones very visibly coherent calculation, check your own firs.

next phase of you neglecting propper confirmation of information useage will result in unwanted sending of your atavistic degree in verifying, to a structure above my personall opinion and your inefficient control of your own thoughts.
Enf. out

enfernux wrote:
MEQ, we already discussed that.
Against Necron, well, they are MEQ.
Against Orks, you pearce mega armor, and they have 2 wounds each.


just a thought: your old favorite CIB:
5/6*5=4.16, thats more than 1, so if my methods of mathhammer to calculate wounds are flawwed, then lets view your methods as in: 2.5*5/6(0.83 if you just scrolled up a bit)=1 and a nother 2.5*5/6=1 in a total of 2 hits, one of them is Ap1.

@ Meq, yes we did discuss that. We proved, without room for argument, that MEQ are kill easier by CIB than MP.

And where orks in Mega armour are concerned, yes they have two wounds. That Means with their 2+ your TL MP will need to wound 12 times to kill one. That's every single shot one gets for the entire game.

On to math, 4.16 is less than 5, and therefore makes sense.

2.5 hits from 2 shots on the other hand, does NOT make sense.

You can go look at my mathammer another time. it is flawless.

Let's do this very slowly. 5/6 is .83. 2/6 is .33.

Therefore, a non-ionizing CIB would be: 0.83x0.33x0.33x5 to wound against MEQ.

Half the wounds delivered are 6's, since it wounds on a 5+. That means that 0.83x0.33x0.33x2.5 would equal the non-ionized wounds, and 0.83x0.33x1x2.5 would be the ionized wounds.

DEAD THREAD.